 Poster: A snowHead
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We're taking our family fortnight in Italy this year. So I've emailed a couple of ski schools with some general queries about the standard of their instructors, whether all lessons are taken by Maestros only, how trainees get experience etc. Here's one of the responses I've received:
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our instructors are certified at the highest level certified by ISIA, the european associations of ski instructors. Our instructors are at the same level of the top level instructors of Switzerland, Austria and France. We do not have different levels because we think that every single clients, from the beginners to the experienced one, deserve the best quality instructions. They are trained for over than one year and a half with 4 examinations during the period and with a final test. To get this cours, you must have been a racer and got a certain ranking; after that you have to pass a 3 days test with a giant slalom proof based on the timing done by an european cup athlet.
Then, our instructors, are certified with a second brand of Federal Trainers, for athlets and ski club skiers.
We can train also junior instructors, as the proofs the foreigners instructors that want to come and work in Italy have to do, are done by our instructors. |
Ok.
Anyone got any insight into this? Confused, mi?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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slikedges, I don't know, but my observations in a number of Italian stations is that they have instructors of all levels, as does everywhere else...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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1. All their instructors are ISIA qualified.
2. They are certified as an instructor training body.
Come on, his written English isn't that bad - I've seen worse from native speakers on here. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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slikedges, what are you expecting them to say? Our instructorz are rubbish so please go to school xyz instead?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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under a new name, that's something I wanted to know about 'cos I haven't skied much in Italy, though wouldn't you agree that the av. skiing std of French instructors is pretty high, probably 'cos you have to be a reasonable skier even to be a stagiere? In Austria the std is very variable because you barely need to be able to ski to be an Anwarter.
Lizzard, wasn't really that I didn't understand his words, more that I'm a just smidgen confused by what he said 
bertie bassett, errr, no. Just a statement of what's on offer, possibly more carefully accurate than if I rang, and the start of a dialogue that'll allow each party to know where the other stands. Better than simply turning up at the door, no?
Y'see my understanding is that like in France there is only one level of fully qualified instructor in Italy, the Maestro, equivalent to Moniteur National/Staatlicher/BASI ISTD etc. ISIA is a step below (being as the stamp/card thing is to my knowledge not operational yet, and even if it were, I don't think my respondent is referring to it). Then there's that I seem to recall there was an Italian instructor on here who said doing the top level qualification was kinda like doing a PhD, ie not just 1.5 years (though I guess there is a lot of qualification inflation around at the mo). I also remember mention of the fact that to be eligible to train you need to have raced to a certain standard, though how exacting that standard is wasn't clear. It's also not clear whether they have trainee instructors regularly or not, and if so, how they get their teaching experience.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 8-11-09 19:46; edited 1 time in total
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| slikedges wrote: |
bertie bassett, errr, no. Just a statement of what's on offer, possibly more carefully accurate than if I rang, and the start of a dialogue that'll allow each party to know where the other stands. Better than simply turning up at the door, no?
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No it would be more useful surely to ask on here for a recommendation for instructor/school in resort x? My best 3 sessions of instruction have been with insideout, tdc and newgen and ALL of those were through recommendations on here, or recommendations by people recommended on here.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| [ I also remember mention of the fact that to be eligible to train you need to have raced to a certain standard, though how exacting that standard is wasn't clear. |
From what I understand the standard is a Eurotest pass at the very least. The Italian selection system for their Stagiares (not sure if they are called stagiares in Italy or not) is based on a point system, and the course lasts two or three days. The first day is when they all take the Eurotest. If they pass, they can move onto the rest of the course, which involves skiing in front of several examiners who mark you. One run of short turns, one of high speed carving and one free run. The candidate is then marked on each run, and has to reach a certain number of points to pass. This number can differ from region to region. If the candidate does not pass, then they have to re-take the whole course again, including the Eurotest.
This was explained to me by an Italian who I roomed with on a Basi course a couple of years ago (He had passed his Eurotest several times, but never made the pass mark in front of the examiners) so I am a little hazy with what he told me but I think I have got the gist of it, I await someone more knowledgeable to come along and correct any mistakes I may have made.
But, to go back to the OP's question, the standard of Italian qualified instructors should be pretty good, due to the tough criteria required to qualify.
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slikedges, I can help you with names in Livigno...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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LaserStock, the young guy I had lessons with was attending uni - studying some sort of human movement and i never did work out what... He told me the older guys can mostly ski very well but may be a bit old style... He was madly trying to "update" their ski school system and also them(he was very into teaching youngsters and wanted more "fun")... He selected the just retired WC racer that I then skied with - they normally kept the WC guy away from ski school clients and for the racers - on the basis he thought we were a good match... 2 years later I noticed the school was starting to change - even to having some new uniforms not in Italian team colours! So I think they were winning the battle... I spent at least 1 gondola ride with teh WC guy going hell for leather in italian as the other instructors were trying to discuss technical stuff and he just had to set them right (He coaches the national team as well)
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slikedges, so maybe that school only has ISTDs?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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LaserStock, Sounds similar to the trainee instructor selections for an Italian region I watched last season. All the candidates were local racers and it appeared to be a thinning out process which included GS, steeps and later in the week a timed Down Hill or Super G. I reckon about 120 started but I'm guessing that was whittled down to 10 or so.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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slikedges, As you say the standard of instructors can vary massively in some countries such as Austria and Switzerland. Is this necessarily a bad thing? Sometimes the better teachers are the ones who can empathise with the clients situation, rather than a former racer who cannot remember learning the basics of skiing for example. Having lower requirements for candidates to get on the instructing ladder allows people from a non racing background into the industry, and the countries that let people teach with qualifications below the ISIA standard give these candidates the opportunity to gain teaching experience while working their way up through the levels. This means that, in most cases, when the instructor has reached the top level he/she is going to be both a great skier and an experienced teacher. But this begs the question, is it fair for a client to take lessons from those who aren't ISIA or above? In my opinion, it depends on the type of lesson. Does it really matter to beginners if their instructor has reached the high standards that are required of the ISIA and above qualified instructors? As long as the instructor is a good teacher and can demonstrate and communicate the necessary skills to the required standard I don't think it does.
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LaserStock,
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Having lower requirements for candidates to get on the instructing ladder allows people from a non racing background into the industry, and the countries that let people teach with qualifications below the ISIA standard give these candidates the opportunity to gain teaching experience while working their way up through the levels. This means that, in most cases, when the instructor has reached the top level he/she is going to be both a great skier and an experienced teacher.
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I don't think I've ever seen anyone posting on Snowheads who doesn't agree with you here!
slikedges, you can be certain the Maestros (Maestri?) will all be superb racers / technical skiers, as the Eurotest is the entry level to begin instructor training. Personally I don't know how they are trained to teach, but from my observations I'm more impressed with them than the ESF (just my view). As with any instructor in any country, I'd try and find one by recommendation though.
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You know it makes sense.
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little tiger, sadly I'm not going to Livigno, but thanks 
LaserStock, beanie1, thanks both for your info. Fully agree that the best skiers don't always make the best teachers, however just to play Devil's advocate 1) I suspect the motive for allowing sub-ISIA instructors to teach is less to do with allowing access to the occupation by non-racers than with cheap labour 2) While it shouldn't necessarily be so, my experience is that ISIA and above ski instructors do an appreciably better job with beginners than sub-ISIA instructors.
bertie bassett, firstly, this. May as well as you never know! The reasons I hadn't bothered are 1) done a site search so already have an idea of sH experience in Cervinia 2) I get the impression that most people are quite charitable about their ski instructors' abilities, if they get on socially with them 3) just 'cos an instructor is good at teaching one level may not mean they're good at teaching another 4) we need three instructors 5) in my experience any reasonable sized ski school can provide instructors who satisfy our needs (ie it's not that difficult to find very good (as opposed to truly inspirational) instructors), so my usual ploy is to ensure that the school knows exactly what I'm expecting 6) actually, don't tell them but I'm likely to use this particular ski school anyway 'cos they're the nearest, so a recommendation from another ski school would possibly not be that helpful 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Although each region has a slightly different system they are all mostly the same. (http://www.amsi.it/collegi.php) Most require around 3 years of study with (for most) the Euro Test being mandatory just to start the training.
All Italian teachers will be able to teach to any standard, but as in all systems there will be better teachers (that is people able to pass on information) than others.
I would not worry about e mailing ski schools, just turn up and go for it and have fun.
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Poster: A snowHead
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PS
slikedges I met a BASI chap (ISTD) who works in Cervinia fo the local school.
Forgot his name, but if you ask around maybe you can find out.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wayne, was it this chap? You say just turn up, but do they all speak excellent English? You've just got ADC L2, right? I understand that all will ski to well beyond this standard, but will they be able to teach in English to this standard?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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slikedges, many speak excellent English - I'm sure unless you're going to a tiny resort that won't be a problem.
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While it shouldn't necessarily be so, my experience is that ISIA and above ski instructors do an appreciably better job with beginners than sub-ISIA instructors.
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Yes of course - due to the experience they've gained whilst teaching and training to get to that level. If ISIA was the "entry level" you could get an instructor who skis to that technical standard but has never taught a beginner in their life.
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beanie1, I found it was more due to a lack of understanding on behalf of the lower level instructor... I skied with one for 2 years who was a PSIA level 2... she insisted she did not need to ski as well as she was a far better teacher... the problem (as I discovered when I finally got a different instructor) was that the exact issues she lacked understanding of to improve her own skiing level were also those that she lacked the understanding to teach her students...
Her lack of understanding of a lot of basics was bleedingly obvious very little time after I changed... She had nicely passed on her own inadequacies and weird ski movements... I ended up needing to return to stem christies as that was the level I had learnt from my previous instructor and could actually do fairly efficiently... This was one reason I always had 2-3 instructors after that - it allowed me comparisons so I could avoid the misunderstandings...
Last time I saw her she was still skiing and teaching with the same poor skills... no matter how well she teaches she will continue to produce skiers who frustrate their subsequent teachers for their total lack of skills ad understanding, until she LEARNS to understand and to make significant changes in her skiing. Sadly she believes the trainers are just "more gung ho" and so refuses to listen to them in the main as they are below her ski instructing ability in her own estimation.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I found it was more due to a lack of understanding on behalf of the lower level instructor...
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Well that too, but that is also something that an instructor will develop as they progress with their own training and work through a qualification system. If ISIA (or ISTD) is "entry level" that doesn't automatically mean they will have a better technical understanding, just because they ski better technically.
But this argument has been done to death and I have no desire to get into it again!!
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beanie1, that would be fine if every CSIA 1(example because we see heaps of folks do a holiday course and get that) did not claim "I am a ski instructor" but instead said "I am a trainee ski instructor".
Just on snowheads there have been good examples of low level instructors arguing with full cert instructors with years of experience. My experience is that large numbers never even go on to ISIA level.
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little tiger,
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that would be fine if every CSIA 1(example because we see heaps of folks do a holiday course and get that) did not claim "I am a ski instructor" but instead said "I am a trainee ski instructor".
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Agreed, but the ski schools are just as much the guilty party in this respect as the individuals themselves. Plus I personally believe that the technical standard of CSIA 1 / BASI 1 is too low as an entry level (certainly to teach alone in the mountains - that's not what BASI L1 is aimed at anyway, though there are people of this level employed in the mountains). (I'm not contradicting myself here by the way, I do think there should be a progression of levels, but that the starting point should be higher than CSIA 1)
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there have been good examples of low level instructors arguing with full cert instructors with years of experience.
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Just because someone has less experience doesn't mean they can't express a point of view or attempt to challenge someone more senior. I (and others of my level) frequently challenge more senior people in my field of work, and the employer will generally be the richer for it.
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beanie1,
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Yes of course - due to the experience they've gained whilst teaching and training to get to that level. If ISIA was the "entry level" you could get an instructor who skis to that technical standard but has never taught a beginner in their life.
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Yep, would agree with all that.
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Plus I personally believe that the technical standard of CSIA 1 / BASI 1 is too low as an entry level (certainly to teach alone in the mountains - that's not what BASI L1 is aimed at anyway, though there are people of this level employed in the mountains).
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Would agree with that too, though I don't really know the tech std of csia1 so that's just my impression. Problem is that in systems that allow such instructors the right to teach on the mountain, said instructors end up servicing most of the teaching capacity for their organisations and many have no serious intention of professional progression. I personally think that even L2 is too low a qualification to be teaching anyone with more than several weeks experience (arguably probably not that high a proportion of people with more than several weeks experience have lessons?).
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Just because someone has less experience doesn't mean they can't express a point of view or attempt to challenge someone more senior. I (and others of my level) frequently challenge more senior people in my field of work, and the employer will generally be the richer for it.
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And also with this! Though it has to be done sensitively and intelligently. Worst thing is when an individual asks/makes too many (the odd one is fine) thick questions/presumptions. In some fields more than others it's both more important that it happens and more difficult to do it appropriately. In my field, a useful challenge is rare due to the far greater experience and knowledge of senior people, but when it's useful, by gum it's useful! In skiing I'd say it's a world easier to do it constructively.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges, but would they do it in front of the clients? People ask questions, get answers from full certs - who then get slammed by lesser qualified folks... all in the same thread so the person who asked the question gets the lot...
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little tiger, my point is that certificates matter relatively less in some fields than in others
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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little tiger, yes but they asked the question in a publc forum, which are not really the ideal place to learn to ski. By their nature they're places that lead to discussion and debate, so people should take everything they read with a pinch of salt.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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beanie1, I'd have thought the low level instructors would have more respect for the much more experienced instructors unless the other is pointedly WRONG(when the doctor is trying to kill the patient I speak my mind NOW)...These are less than polite questions and answers - full on rebuttals and negations(and AFAICS pointedly wrong mostly)... then again I guess I should have learned from watching my old instructor consistently fail to get within a bulls roar of reaching ISIA level... you can lead a horse to water... but you sure cannot turn him into a skier very easily let alone a ski instructor...
slikedges, experience levels are still vastly different no matter the pieces of paper... I often skied with some of the older instructors in my home ski school - they might not have been the best for physics and biomechanics but for sheer skill at getting students going they could rarely be beaten... exemplary terrain selection, psychology, etc etc... Stars at the job and worth skiing with just to watch them work if for nothing else... I always considered this the same way I dealt with graduates - they had the book learning and I had the hands on stuff - together we were a brilliant team! Using a selection of instructors with various skills/experience only enriches learning. However using those who believe they know more than they do was worse than a waste of my time. It took me quite some time to shed the remnants of that one incompetent teacher.
Ski schools should simply not sell lessons with lower certs at full price - then you could make your choices accordingly!
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little tiger, which posts / threads are you referring to?
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You know it makes sense.
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slikedges,
Sorry I did not explain my point.
In Italy there you either are a Maestro or you ain't. There is no lower qualification in the AMSI (they don't have a modular system like BASI). The Maestro level is equivalent to that of BASI ISTD. So the "entry" level AMSI is that of the top BASI level. There are a number of "grades" up from Maestro (sorry don't know what they are called) but these are the trainers.
So, providing that you have an English speaking teacher, (IMO) you should be able to just turn up and get instruction that is pitched at the right level. I assume you’re going on holiday, as apposed to ski training course, and so like I said the best idea would just be to book and English speaking teacher, turn up and have a great time.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| little tiger wrote: |
Ski schools should simply not sell lessons with lower certs at full price - then you could make your choices accordingly! |
The flipside of this is that the full certs end up bitching about not being used because they've been undercut i.e. joe punter doesn't see the incremental value of the higher priced service.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Plus it's also not always quite that clear cut. I've had some awful lessons over the years from "fully qualified" instructors... and I've had some fantastic lessons from some L2s in their first season of teaching. Off the top of my head I can think of a couple of really great L2s whose technical understanding and teaching ability is superb. For sure their personal performance is still developing, but their technical understanding is good enough that they recognise their limitations, and teach within them.
I guess the point I'm really making is that level of qualification is not a guarantee of the quality of teaching you're going to get, it's just an indication.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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slikedges,
Regarding your question about Italian Maestros.
There is no question at all about the skiing ability of Maestro's, it is very high.
Their teaching ability may be a different question. Just because you can pass the Eurotest it doesn't mean you will be a good teacher.
Try and get someone who has firstly very good English and secondly ask how many seasons they have taught for. Experience of course will help, but language is the biggest barrier usually.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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slikedges,
No worries, then seems to be sorted then. I think that most AMSI instructors would be able to teach to whatever level you want so I really don't think you'll problems. "Sometimes" (not always) there is a difference between the instructors’ ability to instruct and the client's ability to learn and this causes a small problem especially when there is a difference in 1st language. It also happens with clients who want to learn certain skills that are outside their capabilities. But in general (IMO) most people just turn up to ski school have a great time.
PS
| slikedges wrote: |
| Wayne you've just got ADC L2, right? |
No, ISIA Alpine + ADC L2 + Adaptive + etc, etc. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wayne, maybe you work for a great ski school, you lucky fellow. From what I get told most clients turn up to ski schools and have maybe a good time, maybe a so-so time. Ski schools and instructors need to remember that they are a service industry, and it's their job mainly to provide what the customer desires. Of course they need to manage expectations as well but they need to look at themselves first!
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No, ISIA Alpine + ADC L2 + Adaptive + etc, etc.
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Just as in "recently" not "only".
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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slikedges,
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From what I get told most clients turn up to ski schools and have maybe a good time, maybe a so-so time.
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That's pretty negative. Maybe you're going to the wrong ski schools?!
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slikedges,
I realise that this could be a slight thread-drift, but maybe some clients fail to understand that you can take a horse to water, etc. etc.
Most people turning up for ski school (in my experience) just want to either learn the basics of skiing or just progress their ability over what they achieved last holiday.
Of course there are a few, who are expecting some form of ski clinic or personal performance course. Don’t misunderstand me, we can provide this, but it’s not what most people are looking for. Of course, in a forum like this due to its nature, you will find a slightly larger than average proportion of these people, and so the requirements asked for are slightly screwed over the norm. Remember you are taking holiday ski school.
Some people take longer to reach late practice level in certain, skill based, activities. Simple as that.
It is common to blame the instructor if you don’t quite get something right within the time frame you set, but come on, give us a little credit, we do try hard but sometimes……
IMO most AMSI qualified instructors (and BASI) will always try their best with classes but sometimes.....
You don’t say what it is you’re hoping to glean from your lessons but I'm sure which ever teacher you end up with will try their best. What more can you ask.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wayne, lordy, I know all that stuff, deal with it on a daily basis and in a different league, my friend! Don't worry, not going off to tell all your clients they have the right to make unreasonable demands, just saying that the good ski schools remember who's paying the wages and listen to their customers, rather than patronising them with a "don't worry your lil' head, just leave it to us, it'll be cool, we'll take care of everything" attitude. Haven't fully decided what I'll be doing this season but so far my lesson plans are about a week of one-to-one with a CSCF3, either ADC L2 or finiishing AI L2, and doing a week of ski school - from the other side
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slikedges, In my 25 years' worth of my family and friends' ski school experiences, I'd say the "so so" experiences are are a tiny tiny percentage. As Wayne, said the vast majority of holiday skiers are looking for someone to keep them safe, enhance their holiday enjoyment, and teach them a bit too. I've never had a ski school not listen to us or our friends as a client - although of course if you choose to go to group ski school your input into the lesson will not be the same as for a private lesson - but that's reflected in the price. I'm surprised you don't realise that most holiday skiers are not looking for a high performance clinic or a significant level of technical input (they're on holiday!). Of course I'm not criticising your sor anyone else's desire to find a recommendation for a truly excellent teacher (I do that myself!), but our goals are vastly different to those of the average holiday skier.
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FAQ
