 Poster: A snowHead
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I greatly admire all those snowHeads who are busy obtaining teaching qualifications. However, I have no desire to teach and was wondering if there were any tests/exams one could do in this country just to measure skiing ability? I'm thinking back to the days of doing my Associated Board piano exams: I never had any intention of taking up music professionally, but those exams were, at least for me, an excellent way of improving my ability in a gradual, disciplined and motivational way. Any information would be welcome, thanks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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beanie1, thanks. However, either I can't get the website to work, or it is very incomplete. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle, I couldn't see anything about the actual awards on there!
(There's a lot of snowheads up very late tonight, normally it's dead on here at this time of day!)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beanie1, got a horrible cold>can't sleep without half asphyxiating myself!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hurtle - in the USA NASTAR will do it (kind of). You really can watch your handicap and get a good measure of basic skills. I think it is based on a French concept - so you can probably do that.
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Good thread.
When my kids were little we had a new ice-rink open in our town and in the "Mums' Group" lessons we did the NSA level tests. Isn't the problem with skiing that different countries' ski schools already have their own independent test-based grading systems, essentially for grouping kids into appropriate classes? In the UK snowdomes there seems to be a general agreement that basic competence to be let loose on the slope is a "level 4" which means able to use their lifts, do linked turns and stop. http://www.skimybest.com/skilevel.htm has some observations plus details of the Professional Ski Instructors of America (PSIA) recreational levels, introduced by the quote "Oh, no," said the skier to the instructor at the ski school meeting place, "I'm not here to take a lesson. I brought my friend over for you to teach. I learned yesterday!"
Although we never stop learning, do you think that a system of tests & awards is something more likely to appeal to the novice/intermediate who desires acknowledgement of progress than to the more experienced skier?
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 23-11-09 9:09; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Butterfly,
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do you think that a system of tests & awards is something more likely to appeal to the novice/intermediate who desires acknowledgement of progress than to the more experienced skier?
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Probably. By analogy, I didn't, in the end, go on to do ARSM etc after Grade VIII, though I toyed with the idea.
slikedges, a hit and miss affair, IME.
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Hurtle, yeah, not too surprised to hear that 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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little tiger, do you mean the Fleche races organised by the French ski schools? Your time is measured against a fore-runner who is a local racer with a known international handicap, so you have to ski the course within a certain percentage of a notional World-Cup racer's time to get the different award levels.
In relation to the Snowlife awards - I can't see how you could be graded on an indoor or dry ski slope beyond an early intermediate level.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I can't see how you could be graded on an indoor or dry ski slope beyond an early intermediate level.
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It would of course be restricted, but I'd guess in the same way they asses candidates for the L1 instructor course?
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| beanie1 wrote: |
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I can't see how you could be graded on an indoor or dry ski slope beyond an early intermediate level.
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It would of course be restricted, but I'd guess in the same way they asses candidates for the L1 instructor course? |
Or a L1.5
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You know it makes sense.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
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I can't see how you could be graded on an indoor or dry ski slope beyond an early intermediate level.
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It would of course be restricted, but I'd guess in the same way they assess candidates for the L1 instructor course? |
I think you can tell a lot - working with different turn shapes, general ease, stance etc. I commented to flyingstantoni on a girl who was freeskiing who had a very fluid style typical of some technically proficient long term seasonnaires and he confirmed she was a BASI 3 Instructor.
As to the point of the OP. There are lots of things in life to be graded on. Its no doubt a necessary evil in professional qualifications but in the leisure world the only measurement I'd put on it is the size of your smile.
I recognise that the SCGB have gradings of skier, primarily AIUI to ensure that people aren't mismatched on holidays but I understand that this has gone by the wayside to some extent as specific level trips have been merged.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hurtle, you do realise, don't you, that before you could progress beyond Level 5 you'd have to do a Theory Test? For the most elementary Theory level you need to be able to:
a. describe how to mount snow chains without using gestures
b. demonstrate an understanding of the difference between angulation and inclination,
c. know three different recipes for fondue
d. give two examples of "punter skis"
As you progress though the levels you will be required to increase you knowledge and understanding, demonstrated for example by the capacity to sustain an intelligent discussion about how how eliminate inner tip lead, for at least four pages without hesitation, deviation or repetition.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob,
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As to the point of the OP. There are lots of things in life to be graded on. Its no doubt a necessary evil in professional qualifications but in the leisure world the only measurement I'd put on it is the size of your smile.
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In an activity, even just a leisure activity, where skill is required, the greater the skill, arguably the larger the smile. So, any kind of discipline for acquiring the skill can be useful. That's why many people, even adults, do music exams, for sure.
pam w, 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I agree that both the process of acquiring new skills and actually having them and therefore being able to do more, is a big part of the pleasure of skiing - though probably not for everybody. Lots of sports have some sort of system of recognizing skills and knowledge - sailing being the one I'm most familiar with.
Fastman's DVDs would be good for someone wanting to build up a relevant set of skills - and the demonstrations are so clear you can practice them on your own. I don't think he does badges though! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle, I can see the argument but what I would say you really need is honest and open feedback from someone who has an eye for things - Instructor, coach, higher level skier etc rather than a badge as badges are really about bragging rights. (leaving aside the metrics of how you set a baseline - prescribed type of ski, condition of slope, busyness of slope etc etc?)
I've found what I've seen of N American teaching systems in skiing somewhat disappointing because of the "positive reinforcement" aspect of messaging - if everything everyone does is "awesome" how are they to know how far from "good" they are? Obviously this is a difficult issue and requires a lot of trust to be built between coach and coachee over and above what a paid by the hour instructor is willing to put his job on the line for but I'd have thought Rob & Scott would give you an honest view. Even looking at vid clips of yourself over time can enable you to judge yourself.
On the size of the smile - I'm not sure there is any simple correlation with ski level. I've skied relatively advanced terrain in crappy conditions and had a fairly miserable time (though of course still much better than work) then met up with beginners who had an absolute hoot on the same day. The worst day in skiing is the one where you become "consciously incompetent" at whatever level and even then working through the "consciously competent" stuff is still less fun than being "unconsciously incompetent".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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badges are really about bragging rights
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isn't that what skiing's all about?  You'd think so if you sit in an aprs ski bar and listen to the conversations...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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A couple of boys having lessons with me last season asked me what level they were up to on the Snowlife awards and could I sign them off for a Scout Activity Badge.
They had the Snowlife logbooks which went into detail of what they had to be able to do to achieve each level. I was very impressed with the skills required...
Of course, I photocopied parts of it because I thought it would be useful for the future and of course, now I'm looking for it, I can't find it anywhere 
From what I remember, as well as saying something like controlling speed and line on a blue piste, it also, had a series of skill based "Can do" statements which at whatever level you were looking at, would improve the average recreational skier's performance.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| beanie1 wrote: |
| snowball wrote: |
I can't see how you could be graded on an indoor or dry ski slope beyond an early intermediate level.
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It would of course be restricted, but I'd guess in the same way they asses candidates for the L1 instructor course? |
Or a L1.5 |
You can tell a heck of a lot about the fundamentals, and these are after all the most crucial elements that need to be in place for a skier to reach a high level. Experience, like speed, can cover up a large array of fundamental flaws. You can tell quite a lot about piste skiing standard (including turn to turn pencil line arcs, which many skiers think they can do, but really can't at all! and indeed don't believe this until they see it on video), and when the slope's been well used, a bit about variable snow and bumps too!! I think L1.5 is right up as far as it could reasonably or usefully go though. Beyond this, demonstrating performance on the mountain has to be essential.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This is an issue that I've raised in the past. Some things I've been involved with have had pass levels, i.e. dancing. Others have not - horse riding, you either do it or you are an instructor like with skiing. I wish there was a fixed level of achievement that you could be passed at - then when an instructor asked which level you were at, you could say something meaningful. Similalry I will that the various ski schools could have a single grading structure so that when kids move between resorts and ski schools you could easily book them in at the correct level. As it is there are as many different grade structures as there are ski schools it would seem.
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For anybody not familiar with the Snowsport Awards
Level 1
Terrain Nursery, terrain garden, easy artificial
Tasks Moving round, carrying equipment, taking equipment on and off, climbing, sliding, ploughing
Level 2
Terrain Green and easy blues, easy artificial
Tasks Plough turning, side slipping, using a ski lift, choosing a safe line on a slope
Level 3
Terrain Blues runs, terrain gardens, moderate artificial
Tasks Consistent plough turning, traversing, skiing round markers, skiing over changes in surface
Level 4 Terrain Blue runs, terrain gardens, moderate artificial
Tasks Basic Plough parallel, skidding, gripping,
Level 5 Terrain Blue runs, red runs, all areas on artificial slopes
Tasks Plough parallel with skis matching earlier in arc, vary size and shape of turns
Level 6 Terrain Red, all artificial, beginning to explore park and pipe
Tasks Parallel turning, starting to use pole plant, small jumps, follow teacher closely,
Level 7 Terrain Red runs, easy black, all areas artificial
Tasks Short radius turning with pole plant, linked carved arcs, follow teacher thru’ easy bumps
Level 8 Terrain Black, all areas artificial
Tasks Fluid parallel turning, easy bumps, short swings, use half pipe
Level 9 Terrain All
Tasks Clean carved arcs on blue slope, short swings and varying tempo, linked turns in deep snow.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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kevinrhead, are these the Snowlife awards?
The problem with these is that you'll be halfway through the levels by the end of week one. Where do you go from there?
Personally I think we should all adopt Rob and Scott's levels - they're the only ones I've ever seen that actually make sense and don't pander to the ego of people who've skiied only a few weeks!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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What are Rob and Scott's levels ?
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You know it makes sense.
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Megamum, Moon on a stick. National bodies can't agree on alignment of standards and transferability of qualifications for instructors so for leisure skiers I think that's firmly in the too hard box.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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beanie1, That is a summary of the Snowlife Awards each level has about 10-12 tasks to be assessed on.
Unfortunately the full range of tasks/activities is only listed in the awards booklet and I do not have a copy with me to go into more detail.
fatbob, I am fairly sure that the Snowlife awards are supported by SSE, SSS, SSW and BASI
The only additional detail I have is:
"The aim of the awards is to build snowsports skills, introducing developmental activities to help explore the possibilities available in snowsports in all environments. There are three main areas for each level of award: Terrain, Skills and Activities. Supplementary skills come under headings such as knowledge, safety and using lifts."
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob,
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badges are really about bragging rights
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Possibly, but they are also - and this is what I'm getting at (not being remotely interested in bragging) - something towards which to aspire/work/practise.
Oddly enough, it was something Rob said to me which set me thinking about all this. He said that someone had signed up for a series of lessons with him, with a specific view to achieving readiness for some BASI test or other, and this (as I understood it) pleased Rob, because it gave them both a set, definable goal towards which to work. And I began to think that some sort of goal, other than general improvement (not that I'm knocking that!) would be quite useful for me, to assist motivation and discipline.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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kevinrhead, sorry I was thinking X border not Pythonesque internecine feuds between the Popular Front of British Snowsports and the British People's Snowsport Front plus assorted splitters.
Hurtle I think you may simply have got to an exhaustion level with indoor training and need some skiing in the fresh air if you need motivation. there will be things you couldn't do last winter that you don't even need to think about this year plus a whole load of new stuff (terrain or flow or speed etc) to aspire to and work towards for a future trip.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob,
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need some skiing in the fresh air if you need motivation. there will be things you couldn't do last winter that you don't even need to think about this year plus a whole load of new stuff (terrain or flow or speed etc) to aspire to and work towards for a future trip.
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You're probably right but, again, it's not quite what I'm getting at or, rather, I do have those aspirations but was thinking that it could be helpful to formalise them a bit more. By that, I mean formalise both the aspirations and the practice discipline required for achieving those aspirations. Like any course (in any sport or skilled activity) with progressive tests, in fact.
GrahamN, wonderful thread! But of course, not what I meant at all. To revert to my old analogy (sorry, the only one I've got to hand  ) Grade VI Associated Board didn't/couldn't label me as a good pianist, but it was the stage (if I remember rightly) that I had to master all the scales in every single key, not a terribly inspiring end in itself (nor one to brag about, unless one was competing in a pub bores' contest or something!) but a useful means to an end at a particular stage in the learning process, and a good one to tick off at that point. fatbob, you may say, 'how boring is that?' and 'how is that going to put a smile on yer face?' and the answer is, a bit boring to do - like quite a lot skiing drills - but really worth it when the technical difficulties of that piece of Beethoven or whomever melt away, and you can give yourself over to the joy of pure music-making or skiing in the zone, as the case may be.
Enough of this, I'm fantasising now, about being a good skier, in much the same way that I used to fantasise about being a good pianist. Pure fantasy in both cases. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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If you're looking for objective measures maybe try fastman's dvd series. I'm pretty confident I couldn't do many of them but AIUI they contain many examples of progressively harder drills so if you got say 60% of the way through the balance DVD and 50% through the edging you'd be doing pretty well, 100% through all and you're probably godlike etc.
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fatbob, good call. I can't help feeling, though, that I would need a LOT of days on the hill and/or in the fridge, to dent my incompetence this way. And there's the rub, there is in reality no easy fix. My piano playing was fairly crap at its best, and that was after starting at a young age and many years of practising EVERY day. As a relatively late-starting skier, with limited access to snow...it doesn't really compute.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
GrahamN, wonderful thread! |
Thanks 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| fatbob wrote: |
I recognise that the SCGB have gradings of skier, primarily AIUI to ensure that people aren't mismatched on holidays but I understand that this has gone by the wayside to some extent as specific level trips have been merged. |
No, it hasn't changed, most of the holidays are for specific standards. If you go on one and are not up to the standard you may be asked to join a ski school group rather than ski with the others, as happened to a person on one of the SCGB holidays I went ona few years ago. However there is some variation of interpretation and a tendency for standards to slide a bit, so that there may be many people at the lower end of the standard on a holiday, and a few who are a bit below.
Of course if a holiday is very popular, so the group can be much subdivided, there may be no need to push anyone out.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| fatbob, good call. I can't help feeling, though, that I would need a LOT of days on the hill and/or in the fridge, to dent my incompetence this way. And there's the rub, there is in reality no easy fix. |
Yes, we can talk on here 'til the cows come home, but as some point you have to get out and do it. It sounds as if you're making good progress with Rob and Scott, but there is another aspect that can't be skipped, to which you also referred in that post - PRACTICE! Just as with the piano, taking more and more lessons doesn't necessarily help wihout putting in the practice hours as well. The DVDs do a partial job of circumventing the boys' time, but you're getting pretty much the same from them as you'd get from the DVDs, with the added benefits of targetted instruction and correctional feedback relevant to you. But you need way more hours than you'll get (or want to pay for) with them.
"I didn't get where I am today without..." spending a couple of sessions (1-2 hrs each) every week down at the local dryslope just pounding out the drills, making mistakes and fixing them, week-in week-out, every week of the year, for the last 4 years. That's possible in the snow dome as well, actually more so, but it'll be rather more expensive. You'll also have seen many times the story of how much time little_tiger has put in to getting where she is.
There really is no alternative to getting out on the slope on a regular basis to practice what they're teaching you.
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