 Poster: A snowHead
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Interesting page on Winterhighland, which gives a visual indication hour-by-hour of whether artifical snowmaking might be possible at a (relatively low) height of 760m / 2500ft on Cairngorm Mountain:
http://www.winterhighland.info/weather/aws.php?time=day
A quick scan this morning says fake snow could have been blasted for 8 continuous hrs overnight. In the middle of April. That's gotta be atleast 1 - 5cm of fresh that could be dragged down the mountain onto the green spots.
When do Cairngorm or the other 4 resorts plan to install snowguns? Has anyone heard anything recently? I know Lecht already has a snowfan or two.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Have Glenshee really got snowguns? First I'd heard.
If the base is deep enough, then fake snow can hang around for weeks. I've skied on a 3-foot-deep strip of manmade in the French Alps at 1000m, when everywhere else was totaly green, temps had hit 20c and it was puking down with rain.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Whitegold,
do not go to low resorts
low resorts are for losers
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hey rayscoops; I see your signature says you 'really need snow'. I reckon you should head to Cairngorm and see the brilliant conditions currently on offer! Losers slag off resorts from the safety of their armchair!
Glenshee's snowmaking equipment is pretty limited; a few portable guns on Claybokie.
No need for snowmaking on Cairngorm today, check the winterhighland webcams: http://www.winterhighland.info/testcam/
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Barclay, I think rayscoops, was taking the pee out of Whitegold, not Scotland. 
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| Whitegold wrote: |
Have Glenshee really got snowguns? First I'd heard.
If the base is deep enough, then fake snow can hang around for weeks. I've skied on a 3-foot-deep strip of manmade in the French Alps at 1000m, when everywhere else was totaly green, temps had hit 20c and it was puking down with rain. |
Yes artificial snow is much denser than real snow so rainwater tends to run off (this can create its own problems though).
One of my local resorts has come up with a solution to high temperatures - install a lot of high power canons. The idea is to make as much snow as possible in the shortest time when the weather is cold enough. Whether they will be able to manage things remains to be seen. 2 years ago, admittedly a very hot autumn, they made 20 tonnes of snow during a cold spell in November and it all melted before the start of the season. I was the only person who got to ski on it!
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Barclay, sorry, no offence to Scotland! I would love to have a trip there.
Just teasing Whitegold because he has a tendancy to dismiss resorts below 1800m but from his posts he seemed to have been skiing in the Alps at 1000 m on canon snow. He also calls everyone a loser
Sounds like you have had some great conditions and you are lucky to have the white stuff so close
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Whitegold wrote: |
Have Glenshee really got snowguns? First I'd heard.
If the base is deep enough, then fake snow can hang around for weeks. I've skied on a 3-foot-deep strip of manmade in the French Alps at 1000m, when everywhere else was totaly green, temps had hit 20c and it was puking down with rain. |
Yes artificial snow is much denser than real snow so rainwater tends to run off (this can create its own problems though).
One of my local resorts has come up with a solution to high temperatures - install a lot of high power canons. The idea is to make as much snow as possible in the shortest time when the weather is cold enough. Whether they will be able to manage things remains to be seen. 2 years ago, admittedly a very hot autumn, they made 20 tonnes of snow during a cold spell in November and it all melted before the start of the season. I was the only person who got to ski on it! |
I would say this is the way forward for Scotland. Cover the mountain in snowguns and blast to the max at every opportunity from Nov to May. There's plenty of water. And they only need to keep one run covered to say the resort is open. They could also plant a few trees while they're at it, to stop the snow blowing away.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| They could also plant a few trees while they're at it, to stop the snow blowing away. |
The tree line in scotland is well below the ski centres 500m or so.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| II wrote: |
| Whitegold wrote: |
| They could also plant a few trees while they're at it, to stop the snow blowing away. |
The tree line in scotland is well below the ski centres 500m or so. |
There must be some trees and soil they can import from somewhere in the world that would grow above 500m. Gotta be better than those cr*ppy fences.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Is it viable to make snow that disappears everyday, no, don't think so.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| II wrote: |
| Whitegold wrote: |
| They could also plant a few trees while they're at it, to stop the snow blowing away. |
The tree line in scotland is well below the ski centres 500m or so. |
There must be some trees and soil they can import from somewhere in the world that would grow above 500m. Gotta be better than those cr*ppy fences. |
fence work
trees above the tree line and imported soil are for losers.
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You know it makes sense.
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| II wrote: |
| Whitegold wrote: |
| They could also plant a few trees while they're at it, to stop the snow blowing away. |
The tree line in scotland is well below the ski centres 500m or so. |
Only because the f***ing deer eat them all, before they grow up to be adult trees. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Max13biker wrote: |
| II wrote: |
| Whitegold wrote: |
| They could also plant a few trees while they're at it, to stop the snow blowing away. |
The tree line in scotland is well below the ski centres 500m or so. |
Only because the f***ing deer eat them all, before they grow up to be adult trees. |
If you removed all deer the natural treeline would rise a grand total of about 100ft to 200ft. What reducing grazing pressure would (and is) do(ing) is re-form a more extensive montaine scrub zone above the tree line where native tress will grow but not to any significant height. Between 2000 and 2800ft on CairnGorm there are trees that are 80+years old and only a couple of feet tall.
As it happens CML has planted hundreds of native trees in Coire Cas, other than in the partial shelter of the Daylodge and Base Station you'll have to do some serious looking for them !!
As for the 'why make snow at night it will just melt during the day', some of it might, but it's what doesn't that matters. If you made any meaningful quantity of snow it's simply not all going to melt during the day. The strategy to pursue on the runs (esp key runs/links) is pretty much as Whitegold suggests - an all guns blazing approach when the opportunity arises. This is similar to what some low East Coast US resorts do and we're talking about density of snow guns that can put >1inch per hour down on a trail.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Winter highland, which gives a visual indication hour-by-hour of whether artificial snowmaking might be possible at a (relatively low) height of 760m / 2500ft on Cairngorm Mountain:
http://www.winterhighland.info/weather/aws.php?time=day
A quick scan this morning says fake snow could have been blasted for 8 continuous hrs overnight. In the middle of April. That's got to be at least 1 - 5cm of fresh that could be dragged down the mountain onto the green spots.
When do Cairngorm or the other 4 resorts plan to install snow Guns? Has anyone heard anything recently? I know it already has a snow fan or two.
This is the place where the beauty of paradise lies. It is also an adventure of pleasure.
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Snowy lux
Email Marketing
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The above post is SPAM
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Build massive brick walls around each run, to keep them in the shade.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| paulio wrote: |
| Build massive brick walls around each run, to keep them in the shade. |
or install one of these:
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 28-01-14 14:37; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 28-01-14 14:39; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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One thing no-one seems to be mentioning is the 60+mph winds Scotland gets! On the two trips I've took up there (both Fri to Mon trips) I've only got half a days boarding in before they shut the mountain, not lack of snow but fear of the drag/chairlifts coming off there rollers.
Although there are benifits (like building a killer park) I don't see the investment being worth it unfortunatly! 
Will continue to visit however 'cause I love the areas and to be honest don't want them jazzed up, keep it rough and ready!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
| Yes, the fencing is pritty ugly and it is also a potential hazzard, some of those planks are worn and quite sharp! What would be better would be red snow netting fences you see in other resorts that is designed exactly for purpose. A, its red so far easier to see in a blizzard, B, it looks much more tidy, C, its actually much more efficient than the wooden fences at locking snow & D for all those environmentalists it can be dismantled at the end of each season leaving the mountain untouched in summer. |
Net fencing simply can't hack it, there are plastic mesh fences designed for the purpose which if held between horizontal wooden beams and 1 or 2 vertical battons between the posts can to some extent - but because they have a greater surface area, they need more substantial posts sunk further into the ground and when the ground might be solid granite, its a problem! The advantage of the chestnut paling being strung on wire between posts is that unless you hit a post, the fence has quite a bit of give in it. The disadvantage is the vertical slats which mean the effective spacing (and thus resultant drift profile/size) is dependent upon the winds angle of incidence to the fence - in this regard a wooden structural fence with horizontal planks would be better (but hurt more if you hit it!).
As it happens there was a stipulation in the past not to use plastic fences, wooden fences were deemed more acceptable. Though I have to say IMO a well built black mesh fence would be more visible in poor vis in winter due to it's contrast with the snow and be noticeably less visible in summer (Chestnut pailing fades lighter and lighter over time making it more prominent in summer).
However, unfortunately making the fences less visible in summer has it's own problems - low flying birds are more prone to flying into them. In 'environmental' terms things are often not as clear cut as they might seem. Ptarmigan and Snowbuntings will often move to a fenced area when predators are circling and hide behind the snow fences as they provide a degree of protection to aerial predation. Similarly the amount of ground trampling required to dismantle the fencing in summer (leaving aside the logistics) would be a significant issue in itself. With repairs a fence-line may need a working visit once every several years, some fences will last decades without major work, compared to the impact of work groups and mechanised machinery going to every fence line twice a year (and there would have to be more use of mechanical aids to set up and dismantle the fences, even if just un-hanging the fences from the posts and rolling them up).
I wouldn't totally rule out the use of demountable fencing on a limited scale though, areas where fencing has a disproportionate impact on a view that a large number of people see or as a way of getting to put some new and very beneficial fence lines up that might not otherwise be given permission - a small amount of such fencing carefully sited could be dealt with by hand with minimal impact in a way that across the entire ski areas it just could not be. That said, by and large the extra effort would be better spent on upkeep - visual impact of fences is greatly reduced where they are maintained in excellent condition.
One sometimes needs to differentiate between human perceptions of aesthetics with genuine environmental impacts.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Since the post was turning into an essay I'll address a different aspect of this in a different post:
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| its actually much more efficient than the wooden fences at locking snow |
This is true in that a wooden pailing fences are traditionally around 30% solid vs 70% space. 50/50 with horizontal gaps is the most efficient at trapping snow and preventing wind scouring. However as the Ski Areas have started to learn the hard way, efficiency of snow fencing can be a double edged sword. When snow is drifting rather than falling the total amount of snow and potential catchment area needs to be considered, if you trap more snow on Run A and Run B is down-wind, you are unlikely to increase the total snow catch, just rob run B of snow.
This is why in short, substantially reducing the snow fencing on the M1 RaceTrack on CairnGorm Mountain has made both the M1 itself and the White Lady run (which is downwind of prevailing Westerly winds) significantly more reliable.
If anyone is particularly interested in such things this is an analysis of snow fencing on the M1 on CairnGorm: http://www.winterhighland.info/cairngorm/M1-Lady-Fences.pdf
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Alan, how many of your suggestions have actually been put into place by CML and what additional changes would you suggest form the seasons since you wrote that report? The link across from the M1 to the 105 went in and has, I think, been a succes. Some changes were made to the Lady fences at the bottom where you link across to the M1 poma, but last season it was a bit variable as to how CML roped off the possible alternative routes back to the M1 poma. Also CML have been a lot more proactive about pushing snow down from the "wrong" side of the elephant fence onto the bottom of the Lady - though I still think they could do more of that.
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You know it makes sense.
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This will be the 4th season since the changes and I think after this season there will be enough photos and other evidence to consider how it's worked in different scenarios and whether further changes might be worth doing. My hunch is that the 3rd quarter of the White Lady needs the fencing either removed (issues with the funicular needing fenced off where it's low to the ground) or the fence line moved closer to the burn course, so that the snow builds deeper there. It has in the last 2 seasons always been where the fence is furtherest from the burn that the run has broken first (snow spread most widely) and this would fit with theory regarding the relationship between drift profile and fence height which suggests the distance is such that the end of the fence drift is just before the burn gully and then beyond that is into a scouring zone.
I'd also like to see a route under the Funicular opened up below the Elephant Fence so that it's possible to escape the White Lady, cross the M1 and exit onto the 105/Coire Cas, but the clearance under the funicular is sort of marginal and the underside would have to be screened off to make sure people couldn't poke poles or worse arms through to the cables  and it may need the ground to be lowered which would open up all sorts of planning issues that merely altering existing fences would not.
I believe Adam Watson has also been making the point to the ski areas that some of the fenced runs are too wide for the fence height and CML has narrowed some troublesome sections of the M2 piste (Quite considerably I think - though I've not been up that way since it's been done).
Definitely agree that snow management on the Lady could always be improved, substantial depth of snow builds in the sort of no-mans land around the tunnel and it would be good if that could be shoved down regularly to the less reliable bits.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
My hunch is that the 3rd quarter of the White Lady needs the fencing either removed (issues with the funicular needing fenced off where it's low to the ground) or the fence line moved closer to the burn course, so that the snow builds deeper there.
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If the fence is moved closer to the burn course then I would like to see a non snow fence put in close to the funicular track so that access isn't lost between the moved snow fence and the funicular track.
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I believe Adam Watson has also been making the point to the ski areas that some of the fenced runs are too wide for the fence height and CML has narrowed some troublesome sections of the M2 piste (Quite considerably I think - though I've not been up that way since it's been done).
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Talking about the M2 area - anyone know if the fences into the top of the Aonach bowl from the M2 have been repaired/replaced. These were in terrible nick the last time I skied into the bowl from the M2 and made entry to the bowl tricky with bigs drifts where the fencing was inatct and scoured areas where the fences were down.
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Definitely agree that snow management on the Lady could always be improved, substantial depth of snow builds in the sort of no-mans land around the tunnel and it would be good if that could be shoved down regularly to the less reliable bits.
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And proactive removal of snow from around the tunnel mouth and from beside the track down onto the runs aswell as improving the runs would minimise holdups at the start of play due to big drifts across the track.
Any thoughts on fences elsewhere?
The traverse across from the Ciste Gulley to the WW poma can be a pain, would it be possible to fence this without spoiling the West Wall run down to the board walk (even though without the WW chair it means a fair old walk back up to the WW poma)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| The traverse across from the Ciste Gulley to the WW poma can be a pain, would it be possible to fence this without spoiling the West Wall run down to the board walk (even though without the WW chair it means a fair old walk back up to the WW poma) |
Basically no, lateral snow fences as opposed to fall-line fences becoming increasingly in-effective as gradient increases. A fenced traverse of the West Wall simply wont work in any meaningful way, the ground is too steep. That's why the existing fence line doesn't work - it's also going against the natural snow lie which is to form a snow field down the fall-line terminating at the board walk. There is no way the WWP can reliably serve let alone fully service the Ciste runs.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 28-01-14 14:42; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I agree,
Wooden fencing can look and work well if it is nice and tidy, currently a lot of the fencing is looking very messy and old
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Or a single lower run with snowflex the colour of grass so again some skiing can be had when conditions are poor and out of season. They do this at some Japanese ski resorts.
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Has been suggested for the Daylodge Run - but cost would be prohibitive.
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Wooden fencing can look and work well if it is nice and tidy, currently a lot of the fencing is looking very messy and old
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Just out of interest when were you last at a scottish ski resort?
Glenshee fencing was in a dire state, but a lot of replacement and renewal work has gone on this summer I'm told. Last time I was at nevis the fencing seemed in reasonable nick as did the Lechts fencing. Cairngorm have also been renewing and replacing a fair amount of fencing. At the end of last season there was some areas in need of work - eg Aonach bowl area. Traverse across from the top of the Cas to the Fiacal run and the old fiacal tow had a whole section of blown down fence. Also there will be some damaged fencing from the weather and from piste basher damage. Last season a fair amount of fence renewal work was done and hopefully more has been done this summer.
Once the snows here I'll find out how much renewal work has been done.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Nevis should buy an IDE snowmaker and blast the slopes white every day from Nov to May.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| To take perhaps a single run and use underground cooling pipes so at least when conditions are poor the snow would hold well on this one run so the centre can be open for at least some snow skiing. |
An often unrecognised advantage of snow making is that it deals with this without having to chill the ground artificially. The 'thaw from both ends' problem when initial heavy snow falls land on warm ground because the insulating the ground from the cold air above is a genuine problem in a maritime climate. With snow making though, the initial base layer will be put down when the ground is frozen and hard, thus the snow will insulate the ground from warm spells keeping the ground cold and frozen throughout the season.
The benefits of this were clearly visible on the lower nursery slopes at Thredbo in Australia as the Southern Hemisphere spring came in, even after 2 weeks of mild conditions they were able to shove snow around and patch thin bits without creating the brown slop indicative of thin snow cover on warm unfrozen ground that has often resulted at the Lecht esp from pisting thin snow over peaty soils that were not frozen.
This is why the ideal scenario for Scottish resorts is a dry settled and increasingly frosty period prior to early season snow storms.
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| Quote: |
This is why the ideal scenario for Scottish resorts is a dry settled and increasingly frosty period prior to early season snow storms.
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And one thing we don't seem to have had for a few years - at least at the Clash. In recent years we've had some very decent falls, but always onto warm wet ground. As soon as the air temperature has popped up over freezing during the day there has been rapid melting of the snow in very quick time. Last year we had over a metre of snow on the trails in places and it was dificult to piste with our underpowered skiddoo. Three of us spent most of the weekend pisting the trails - temperature rose on the Sunday (which meant we couldn't run the track cutter) and the snow had disappeared by midweek  . Only a few years ago we would have expected to get at least a couple of weeks of decent skiing from such a large snowfall.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
My last visit to Scotland for skiing was late last season when you had really nice snow and good weather at Nevis, I noticed the fencing looked scruffy but as you say they have done a lot of work on it over the summer it will be interesting to hear what you think of it.
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I don't get to Nevis very often, I mostly ski at Cairngorm (season ticket), The Clash (nordic), and then Lecht or Glenshee. Most get back to Glenshee this year as the last time I was there the fences were in a terrible state, but they are suppossed to have doen a lot of fence work this summer. It will be interesting to see what difference this makes, as last time I was there sections of missing fencing were causing problems with scouring on some runs. I'd also liek to make it to nevis when the back is open and even when the Braveheart chair is running. The only times I was there before the back was closed due to avalache risk .
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Introduce wolves back into scotland. I say screw the farmers they should learn how to tend their flock if they wanna keep the lambs. There is such a deer problem stopping the trees from developing from saplings. Wolves will gladly keep the deer population in check. Scotland doesnt need beavers it needs wolves. Wolves and snow cannons. Theres the solution....
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FAQ
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