 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sarge, yuk. I have a flight booked with them for March to Geneva.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sarge sooner or later someone will set a precedent by suing an airline (regardless of how much they try and hide behind their T & C's) and winning a claim for the incurred costs.
Can you think of any other contract where you pay for something and then the supplier cancels the contract, basically, as they have changed their mind and don't want to supply the services you paid for.
I think they would have a little bit of a problem justifying "operational reasons" in court.
You know you want to 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wayne, what does the Italian in your sig mean?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beanie1,
BASI non finire al fino della Valle d'Aosta = BASI doesn't finish at the end of the Aosta Valley
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Sarge, I was going to suggest drive until I saw your location. Bummer. 
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Sarge,
"Maybe the big tour operators ain't so bad !"
On another forum someone reports that Neilson's have cancelled future flights for the same reason. Basically big and small tour operators use the same airlines as people travelling independently. Therefore it's nothing to do how big a tour operator is, it depends on the airline and both small and large airlines may decide to cancel flights.
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welshflyer, I thought most of the tour operators used chartered flights rather than scheduled flights?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| welshflyer wrote: |
On another forum someone reports that Neilson's have cancelled future flights for the same reason. Basically big and small tour operators use the same airlines as people travelling independently. Therefore it's nothing to do how big a tour operator is, it depends on the airline and both small and large airlines may decide to cancel flights. |
I don't think any major TO uses scheduled flights for many European destinations.
The two biggest groups mainly use their own airlines (Flythomascook and Thomsonfly), although they both also charter flights form other airlines when necessary.
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| Wayne wrote: |
Sarge sooner or later someone will set a precedent by suing an airline (regardless of how much they try and hide behind their T & C's) and winning a claim for the incurred costs.
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Nice though it sounds, I don't think it likely they would win.
You might be able to get the difference between what you paid for their flight, and what you now have to pay for an alternative flight, but if there is an alternative flight available to the same destination on the same day, you won't get any more than that. And even that would not be easy.
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Can you think of any other contract where you pay for something and then the supplier cancels the contract, basically, as they have changed their mind and don't want to supply the services you paid for.
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It can happen. It doesn't often happen, but it isn't unknown.
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I think they would have a little bit of a problem justifying "operational reasons" in court.
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They wouldn't need to. Unless they are arguing that it was completely outside their control, they don't need to give reasons for the cancellation.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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alex_heney, not that I would want to take it on - but might not there be a case of unfair conditions of contract?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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alex_heney,
I know sod all about the law (thought I'd put that in 1st)
But, what about this
I book a flight to somewhere strange, like Yorkshire.
I have a contract with SnowHheadsAirline.com to take me from Manchester to Leeds and back.
I pay them some money and they accept my booking - now I think (may be wrong) that at that moment a contract is formed?
Later on Mr Admin wins the lottery and thinks to himself Sod This I'm Off To The Beach and he cancels my (and other people's) flights.
I have booked a room at the best hotel in Yorkshire (2*) at a cost of £10 Diner, Bed Breakfast, with en suite sheep pen (for the discerning gentleman)
I can't get a refund from my hotel.
I have a contract with SnowHheadsAirline.com and due to their failing on their part of the contract I am down £10.
Who do I get this back from?
OK, I understand that SnowHheadsAirline.com may not be able to fly me to Leeds for various reasons, safety, Legal, weather, etc. but for them just to decide they don't want to run the flight is (I think) a little wrong and opens them up to a claim for my £10 which I paid to the International Grand Beach Resort and Hotel, Pontefract.
SnowHheadsAirline.com can't (I hope) jus decide they don't want to fly me and my velcro gloves to Yorkshire regardless of the T&C's which, if they do allow this, are (surely) unfair and so not legal
I am down ten quid on this deal. 
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 12-10-09 10:57; edited 2 times in total
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If there is a case to be brought for cancellation by airlines I feel fairly sure someone would have brought it by now 
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You know it makes sense.
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Boredsurfing,
How much cash did Rain Air spend on legal costs over a wheel chair. I think they would kick up a right stink of refunding out of pocket losses.
But .....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Wayne wrote: |
alex_heney,
I know sod all about the law (thought I'd put that in 1st)
But, what about this
I book a flight to somewhere strange, like Yorkshire.
I have a contract with SnowHheadsAirline.com to take me from Manchester to Leeds and back.
I pay them some money and they accept my booking - now I think (may be wrong) that at that moment a contract is formed?
Later on Mr Admin wins the lottery and thinks to himself Sod This I'm Off To The Beach and he cancels my (and other people's) flights.
I have booked a room at the best hotel in Yorkshire (2*) at a cost of £10 Diner, Bed Breakfast, with en suite sheep pen (for the discerning gentleman)
I can't get a refund from my hotel.
I have a contract with SnowHheadsAirline.com and due to their failing on their part of the contract I am down £10.
Who do I get this back from?
OK, I understand that SnowHheadsAirline.com may not be able to fly me to Leeds for various reasons, safety, Legal, weather, etc. but for them just to decide they don't want to run the flight is (I think) a little wrong and opens them up to a claim for my £10 which I paid to the International Grand Beach Resort and Hotel, Pontefract.
SnowHheadsAirline.com can't (I hope) jus decide they don't want to fly me and my velcro gloves to Yorkshire regardless of the T&C's which, if they do allow this, are (surely) unfair and so not legal
I am down ten quid on this deal. |
The problem there is that they have no knowledge of what you may or may not be doing which requires that flight. They can't be (and certainly won't be) held responsible for all costs incurred as a result, no matter how high or how unusual.
While consequential losses can in some circumstances be claimed when there is a breach of contract, it usually only happens where it is obvious that for most people entering that contract, they would have incurred those costs.
As Boredsurfing says, if there was a serious chance of winning such a case, somebody would have brought it by now. This isn't just a Ryanair issue, just about all airlines have similar terms surrounding cancellation by them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| achilles wrote: |
| alex_heney, not that I would want to take it on - but might not there be a case of unfair conditions of contract? |
I'd like there to be, but I don't think so
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wayne, Consequential loss is a very grey area.
No it doesn't need to be something that the airline MUST have known about, but it must be pretty well directly connected. It must certainly also have been reasonably foreseeable. Losing a smallish deposit from the hotel might be. Losing the whole cost of the hotel, this far in advance probably wouldn't be.
Sarge doesn't say what date his flight was, but it was almost certainly at least two months away. Not many hotels charge you anything if you cancel that far in advance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This is brill. Free advice from a lawyer. OMG.
OK then, if it doesn't have to be something they must have known about then it stands to reason that it could be something they didn't know about.
You could invoice BMIbaby for legal advice that was directly attributable to their failure to transport Sarge.
Go on. You know you want to.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Places like Accor group, Travelodges etc. are usually/often booked+paid up front.
I'd complain like hell just to give their customer service a bit of grief and make them feel a bit of guilt, but would fully expect to have to claim such costs against travel (or other) insurance. Then I'd write a letter to BBC Watchdog, and let Anne Robinson give them a bit more of a grilling without the opportunity to get a word in edgeways.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| This is brill. Free advice from a lawyer. OMG. |
Alex_Heney is a software developer, IIRC
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May well be worth making a call to your holiday insurance people see how you're covered for cancellation - particularly if you're going to incur cancellation costs from the hotel/transfer companies.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| nbt wrote: |
| Wayne wrote: |
| This is brill. Free advice from a lawyer. OMG. |
Alex_Heney is a software developer, IIRC |
Correct.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| This is brill. Free advice from a lawyer. OMG. |
Not me. I have a better knowledge of the law than the average layman, but am not involved in the legal profession.
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OK then, if it doesn't have to be something they must have known about then it stands to reason that it could be something they didn't know about.
You could invoice BMIbaby for legal advice that was directly attributable to their failure to transport Sarge.
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If you won your case against them then unless it had been allocated to the small claims track, you would probably get the legal costs awarded.
As I said before, they don't have to know about it, but it MUST be reasonably foreseeable.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Wayne wrote: |
I book a flight to somewhere strange, like Yorkshire. (Electricity and hot water an have that effect)
I have a contract with SnowHheadsAirline.com to take me from Manchester to Leeds and back.
I pay them some money and they accept my booking - now I think (may be wrong) that at that moment a contract is formed? |
Correct, but - whisper it- there are terms and conditions to that contract. It's all unsporting as no one reads them, but I bet they say that its peachy to cancel if snowHeadair want to!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| Correct, but - whisper it- there are terms and conditions to that contract. It's all unsporting as no one reads them, but I bet they say that its peachy to cancel if snowHeadair want to! |
You're probably right. 
It just seems to have become prevalent in the airline industry in the last year or 2, to take people's money (in full) and "then" decide if they are going to run the flight(s). It is a mater of common knowledge that (no mater what any lawyers may say) people "do" book in good faith other goods and services and incur costs that are directly linked to the purchase of a flight ticket. If the flight ticket is withdrawn then people lose out financially.
Just think there should be a remedy against this.
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Wayne, You won't be the first to be caught out by the wiki-lawyers on here. I'm no lawyer nor ever will be.
Alex- I have no idea why you persist with this as you are way off the mark time and time again. Linklaters have (or rather had) some very good lawyers on airline contract law as do IATA amongst others, but you are banging on about 'breach-of-contract' implications that are based upon an incorrect assumption. You might like to start with the Warsaw/Montreal conventions , follow up with the ICAO stuff, delve into the IATA standard Ts & Cs and those of the individual airlines. I'm glad I'm not a lawyer, I'm bored just writing that.
Wayne, I agree that it has got out of hand and a number of airlines have been dodgy over the last few years:-
- At least one appears to persist in issuing online timetables/bookability before it has its operating plan agreed ( and its slots ratified)
- Another sold part of its operation without any compensation for customers or operational guarantees from the airline buying it.
I consider those dodgy practices at best but if there were any legal challenges they all appear to have failed.
It all seemed fair(er) when the airlines honoured one another's tickets etc under IATA regulations but the aviation world isnt like that any more and, yes, it is about time that fundamental changes were introduced. The EC would seem a good place to start but they have few countries with non-IATA 'Full Member' airlines ( apart from their Charter operators, notably in Germany) so little chance of them taking an interest in looking after us Brits. That leaves us with our own politicians .... OK , I give up!
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You know it makes sense.
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Wow, so much info. I wish I could be bothered to attempt court action, but they say I'll get a full refund, though I may invoice them for a handling fee !
A letter to Sunday Times Travel and Watchdog are also on the cards.
The flight is Feb and has been booked since early Sept, so that's 5 months notice. Surely it's a profitability issue, not operational.
I'll have a scan of their T&C's but I'm sure they are solid. Trouble is, I had a Friday flight and there's not much else to Grenoble on a Friday.
Ryan Air advertise flight to Grenoble-Lyon, but that's like a flight to Liverpool-Leeds, i.e. it's sodding Lyon, not Grenoble.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Agenterre wrote: |
Wayne, You won't be the first to be caught out by the wiki-lawyers on here. I'm no lawyer nor ever will be.
Alex- I have no idea why you persist with this as you are way off the mark time and time again
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One day, perhaps you will actually have the decency to actually discuss how I am "way off the mark", rather than just repeating it as fact.
But I rather doubt it.
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Linklaters have (or rather had) some very good lawyers on airline contract law as do IATA amongst others, but you are banging on about 'breach-of-contract' implications that are based upon an incorrect assumption.
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Which is?
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You might like to start with the Warsaw/Montreal conventions , follow up with the ICAO stuff, delve into the IATA standard Ts & Cs and those of the individual airlines. I'm glad I'm not a lawyer, I'm bored just writing that.
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I was only trying to respond to what other people have posted.
I didn't want to start bringing those conventions into it, although I have read most of both of them. They don't really say much about what happens when the contract is cancelled months in advance.
And yes, I know that the T&Cs of most airlines say they don't pay compensation, but they don't necessarily have that choice.
| Quote: |
It all seemed fair(er) when the airlines honoured one another's tickets etc under IATA regulations but the aviation world isnt like that any more and, yes, it is about time that fundamental changes were introduced. The EC would seem a good place to start but they have few countries with non-IATA 'Full Member' airlines ( apart from their Charter operators, notably in Germany) so little chance of them taking an interest in looking after us Brits. That leaves us with our own politicians .... OK , I give up! |
Well the EC regulations which came into force a few years ago do go significantly beyond the requirements of the conventions, but still don't really address this sort of issue.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Is Chambery any good? It's about as near to Grenoble as Grenoble Airport is! Jet2 fly there from Edinburgh, Newcastle, Manchester and Leeds-Bradford.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 13-10-09 10:22; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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altis, From reports I have seen (mainly elsewhere on  ), it is a small airport, and is rather more likley to be closed due to weather than most.
But assuming your flight actually succeeds in landing/taking off, getting through the customs/baggage etc. is quick and easy.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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alex_heney, true, it is small - but that also means less hassle and quick to get through. Yes, it can suffer from the weather - but it never has done in my experience.
Another option would be the train. In the Ecrins this summer we met a couple who had come down by train from Leeds to Grenoble and then by bus to Bourg de Oisans. IIRC they left home at something like 5 in the morning and were in Bourg before tea time.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| altis wrote: |
alex_heney, true, it is small - but that also means less hassle and quick to get through. Yes, it can suffer from the weather - but it never has done in my experience.
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I misunderstood your post. I thought you were asking whether Chambery airport was any good 
Whereas you were actually asking if it was a possible option for the OP.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Sarge wrote: |
| Ryan Air advertise flight to Grenoble-Lyon, but that's like a flight to Liverpool-Leeds, i.e. it's sodding Lyon, not Grenoble. |
Other way round me thinks ie. it's sodding Grenoble, not Lyon.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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altis, Chambery is prone to fog as I recall from a couple of tour op flights. We were diverted to Geneva, but couldn't get off the plane, as the baggage hut was full. Sat on the tarmac until fog cleared at Chambery.
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Dave Spart
Dave Spart
Guest
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| Wayne wrote: |
...........
I am down ten quid on this deal. |
At least you did not have to go to Yorkshire though. So you could say the airline was doing you a favour.
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Dave Spart,
Got to go to Sheffield this Saturday.
Do I need a passport / inoculations / visa / mosquito net. Can you drink the water. Will my plug work over there or do I need a converter ?
I have watched the visitor information film to try and get some tips (Last Of The Summer Wine) but not much help.
Has any one been there lately and got any tips about the other side of the Pennines
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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altis,
When I was at Chambery last year there were no probs with the weather but a couple of flights were diverted because they were too heavy to land, which is a rather major cock-up on someone's part I'd have thought.
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Grenoble and Lyon airports aren't actually that far apart. Good links from Lyon Airport to Grenoble bus station too.
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FAQ
