 Poster: A snowHead
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I've picked up on a point from a thread in the piste http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=1322430#1322430. Isn't it strange the difference it makes having someone with you? (I hope its not just me) Having only recently discovered the delights of skiing with someone - a combination of finally being good enough to cover a sufficient amount of the mountain to make it worthwhile for someone else to ski with me and also to have someone to ski with. I now find it makes a huge difference to what I am prepared to take on in terms of difficulty (I have even got the odd black in when I've had someone with me) or the speed I'm prepared to go at on the flat (Flowa et al in VT!!). Yes, when all is said and done I 'know' there is no-one else getting me down except me, but having someone else there seems to make a huge difference. There must be a 'mind thing' going on.
It's a bit like when I went walking in the lakes, me and the kids following a clearly marked easy path along a valley, I was perfectly happy for the first hour or so, but it was a path that had no-one else walking it. The further along it I got the more uneasy I felt - the path got no more difficult to walk or difficult to follow, I just felt jumpy. Yet if I had been with another adult - experienced or not I'm convinced it wouldn't have bothered me to have been in the middle of no-where.
What on earth does the mind do, and is there any way of switching it off?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 20-09-09 19:12; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's embarrassing to wuss out in front of a bunch of people who will probably think you're a pansy.
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The further along it I got the more uneasy I felt - the path got no more difficult to walk or difficult to follow, I just felt jumpy.
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That, on the other hand, is just freaky. Get a grip. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Megamum wrote: |
I've picked up on a point from a thread in the piste http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=1322430#1322430. Isn't it strange the difference it makes having someone with you? (I hope its not just me)
Yet if I had been with another adult - experienced or not I'm convinced it wouldn't have bothered me to have been in the middle of no-where.
What on earth does the mind do, and is there any way of switching it off? |
I can see where you are coming from here and I don't think it's just you. We take children from our school to a local Safety Centre and one of the scenarios they experience teaches them to 'listen' to their bodies (feeling sick, sweaty, butterflies in tummy etc.) to be aware of possible danger in certain situations and take avoiding action. In the walking activity you were the only adult present and possibly your unconscious mind was telling you that if you had an accident (eg. fell and broke your leg) there would be no one immediately available to help, hence the increased awareness or feeling jumpy. In this instance I don't think you would want your mind to switch off and make you less aware/alert!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, doesn't it depend on who you are with? There are lots of people I ski with who I have great confidence in, and my comfort zone when skiing is considerably larger when I ski with them. On the other hand there are a few people I know who would decrease my comfort zone (not snowHeads, I hasten to add, who are uniformly a wonderful bunch  )
I find I ski better when I turn my mind off. It just gets in the way.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, Yes, I like to ski with people, but I'm also very happy to meet at a preplanned destination later in the day & ski by myself for a while if I know that otherwise I'd be holding them back. I've been known to tackle quite scary runs by myself, knowing I could take my time over them & think about what I'm doing, rather than worrying that I'm holding people up.
The walking thing - well, I'm happy to walk in the middle of nowhere by myself for hours (with trusty hounds, so that probably makes a difference) but very occasionally & for no apparent reason, something will spook me. 
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Megamum, How strange, I was in Essex earlier today, Brentwood to be precise, and I did get an uneasy feeling,
I was on the A12 and should have been on the M25 
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genepi, I recognise the 'spook' that's what I got when I was walking. No reason to fall, no apparent danger, just a complete uneasiness at being alone (or alone with the kids). In the finish after a considerable distance and finally turning away from the stream that we had followed from the start (I was using it as a 'handrail' I think is the right term) I turned back, and when nearly back to the start I decided we still had time to go up the higher path towards the ridge - another clearly marked route. I felt much happier on the way back once I could see the village in the distance that we had started from and when we walked a lot of the higher route again much, much happier when we met another couple out walking. Yet, nothing had changed for me and kids in terms of where we were, or our own personal abilities or level of preparedness. It's most odd. Iski, you might be getting close to what is going on, maybe its the difference between hazard and risk, but are you at any more risk 4 miles from civilisation than you are 2 miles away? In real terms probably not, but the brain seems not to accept that. Conversely we walked a good long distance when we did catbells, was miles from the landing stage and getting home yet, the whole time there were loads of people around and I felt fine the whole time. I also think I would have been happier to have a dog with me (heaven knows why!). It's all most odd.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I want to start doing some winter mountain walking and camping on my own. I've spent a little time in the hills (not overnight though) on my own and the mind set is very different to being with other people. You are a little more cautious and without anyone to offer distractions you become more attuned to the varying moods your mind offers up. They also seem to be more extreme.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| maybe its the difference between hazard and risk |
A Hazard is something that has the possibility to cause harm
A Risk is the likelihood that a hazard will occur; normally given as a reducible percentage
Iski is completely right. You generally know (maybe subconsciously) when something is too "risky" - that is, the risk that a hazard will occur is high. As Iski and you say, the Risk can be increased and exacerbated due to the lack of qualified assistance available in the event of a Hazard causing harm.
An example of an easily reducible Risk;
| Scarpa wrote: |
| I want to start doing some winter mountain walking and camping on my own. |
A very brief Risk Assessment would show that during winter conditions you are best to be with someone else as this reduces many of the likely Risks to a manageable level.
Mind you, this said, everyone on this forum will have skied down something that gives them the wobbles and sweats, ain't this part of the fun?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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When taking school groups of teenagers abroad we had to do risk assessments for each associated activity. We had to identify each potential hazard, give it a rating of 1-5 based on how likely we thought it was to happen (5 being that it was highly likely) and state the severity of outcome should it happen, again on a scale of 1-5, (where 5 was a fatality). We then multiplied the two numbers and any activity where the resultant risk factor exceeded a given number went to the next stage which was to identify ways to reduce either the likelihood or severity of outcome. The risk factor was then redetermined with these measures in place.
One of the activities was letting the kids loose for free shopping in a town such as Cologne. The potential dangers are immense of course, but one way that they were reduced was by stipulating that all of them must remain in groups of at least 3 individuals at all times. They were also given advice that in the case of any problem (eg getting lost), they would be able to discuss what to do and in the event of one of them sustaining an injury, one would attend to the injured while the other sought help by first phoning one of our mobiles and secondly, if necessary, seeking the help of a member of staff in the nearest shop or a policeman or other such person. It was also pointed out that in the unlikely event that someone tried to abduct a girl, one on her own would be a far more attractive target than a group of three.
Your walk was not a high risk activity, but your mind would be subconsciously pondering what you'd do in the case of accident - how would you all get back safely, you had two children so your party couldn't split up with one sent for help, but no doubt you had a mobile (with signal and battery?). The further away you were, the longer help would take to arrive. The more remote the path, the less likely someone else would happen to pass by etc.
As for the skiing - I am very uneasy skiing alone as I am so inexperienced and thus a poor judge of skiing situations. With a better skier who I trust, I can be given advice on tackling something I'm unsure of. Also were I to get into a situation I felt I couldn't get out of by myself, that person would be there for me, with concern for my welfare.
To me, your feelings seem pretty normal and sensible.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have always thought that skiing takes place 80% in the head. I can ski well - occasionally, when the conditions are right and I'm in the mood. Having a friend along can help, for it makes the whole experience that much more enjoyable. And if I'm enjoying my skiing, I can relax. And that is probably the secret of the whole business. If the conditions aren't so good, mists or ice or whatever, then I often tense up and my skiing goes to pot.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 21-09-09 22:51; edited 1 time in total
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espri, more like 95% I think.
Anyone who's interested should read "Inner Skiing" by Gallwey and Kriegel.
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You know it makes sense.
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beanie1, yes, you're probably right - I didn't want to exaggerate.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| beanie1 wrote: |
espri, more like 95% I think.
Anyone who's interested should read "Inner Skiing" by Gallwey and Kriegel. |
My paperback version of this has disintegrated over time, so I was pleased to find a hardback 1st edition for a $1 in a secondhand book store in the US recently 
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Poster: A snowHead
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beanie1, I found that book utterly useless! It was very wishy washy and no real substance IMO! I did let it beat me though, perhaps it gets better after page 60 or so. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes, its all classic risk assessment stuff isn't it - I do this for chemical hazards and risks in my job all the time. So I guess all the jumpiness is down to the inner me saying 'yes, it is more risky to be doing this without other adult intervention possible'. However, perhaps I can see this on a walk with the kids when one could stay with them and one could go for help, i.e. that I feel more relaxed with others around, but its odd that it works with skiing, when its just me and AN Other. There is very little chance for anyone to physically help you get down a ski slope - either you have a long and difficult walk (which isn't recommended) or you have to get yourself down. Whether you get encouragement or yes, ridicule Lizzard , it doesn't change the skiing ability that gets you down a slope all that changes is your state of mind, so ergo, if you can get down with someone else, why the hell can it seem more difficult when you are alone? And as I note in the OP its not only me that notices it - there were folks in the lead-in thread in 'the piste' that indicated they have felt the same.
beanie1, espri, rob@rar, that book sounds like its worth a read.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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CSki, I think whether or not someone finds that book useful or not probably depends on what type of learner you are. If you like lots of technical description, then no it's not the book for you, as it won't teach you how to ski. If however you're more of a "feeler" when learning, or you have a big mental block that is holding you back from reaching your potential, I think it can help immensely. I had a BASI trainer once who used similar techniques to great effect. The approach is not just for higher level skiers though - for example with beginners you could get them singing whilst they ski - gives their mind something to focus on other than the technical aspect of what they're doing. Or you could get people pretending to be an animal as they ski. It's all about getting your muscles to do the work whilst your concious mind concentrates on something else. Works for me!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Whether you get encouragement or yes, ridicule Lizzard , it doesn't change the skiing ability that gets you down a slope all that changes is your state of mind, so ergo, if you can get down with someone else, why the hell can it seem more difficult when you are alone? |
All BASI people here will be able to explain the Performance threads. One of them is the Psychological Thread which explains why you can get down with someone else that you trust to lead you (or just to be there if something goes wrong) and not on your own.
Not going to go into to it too much but the basics are that if you're up for it, you can do it, if not, you can't. What’s going on in your head really does affect your physical ability to do something.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| Not going to go into to it too much but the basics are that if you're up for it, you can do it, if not, you can't. What’s going on in your head really does affect your physical ability to do something. |
Oh yes - I can relate to that! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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It is down to ability and confidence. If you are slow then get more lessons.
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Megamum, I was far more confident in risk taking and being "gung ho" before having my kids. At the end of the day you are instinctively programmed to protect them and thus yourself. You have kids and all of a sudden you go into a room, shop etc and immediately scan for danger (plug sockets, glass ornaments etc)...we are basically training our minds to coinsider the worst that can happen in order to keep them/us safe.
I have found that skiing has helped me overcome other anxieties though as it's a case of challenging yourself and then achievement - continually pushing myself to go further, higher, faster, steeper...so rewarding.
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Megamum, a better version was produced called "The Inner Game" and a subsequent one by the same authors was also called "Inner Skiing" I think. I have a copy of both somewhere and have to say I was sceptical at first but have since used a lot of the techniques both coaching as well as performing several sports, not just skiing! The Inner Game and Inner Skiing were produced in the UK I believe whereas the the other Inner Skiing was an American book and I found that version to be too wishy-washy too. Don't the Inspired to Ski courses use a lot of inner visualisation techniques?
Isn't all of this now an accepted part of sports psychology these days?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Whether you get encouragement or yes, ridicule Lizzard , it doesn't change the skiing ability that gets you down a slope all that changes is your state of mind, so ergo, if you can get down with someone else, why the hell can it seem more difficult when you are alone? And as I note in the OP its not only me that notices it - there were folks in the lead-in thread in 'the piste' that indicated they have felt the same. |
Because theres someone there who can get you out of trouble.
Because youre interacting with other folk rather than youre brain which is busy running through a list of everything that could go wrong.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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About the walking example, your mind is probably thinking "such an easy path, how come no one else walking it? Could there be a reason no one came? A danger sign I missed?". With another adult, you can simply confer with to dispell that possibility.
I go walking and camping a lot. And when I'm alone, I need to double check my surrounding more carefully. With another adult, it's understood that TWO pairs of eyes are better than one.
About the skiing bit, the benefits are multi-fold:
1) If you see someone else getting down it without doing anything different, you feel confident you can do the same. (that's about 95% of case)
2) If that other person is a better skier, he/she can evaluate the route and advice you on HOW to get down it.
3) If the worse happens, your mate is right there to render help.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, It's not only having the kids that increases risk aversion it is also the additional years. Not that I am saying you are old  but we all tend to become more cautious with age. I think it is a combination of what we have seen and learned, the realisation that we actually mortal and the knowledge that some things really will hurt if it all goes pear shaped. I know that I do not bounce as well as I did when I was twenty, and yes I can remember back that far.
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Sarge McSarge, actually I was far more or a scaredy cat when I was younger. Am I alone in this?
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You know it makes sense.
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| PsychoBabble wrote: |
| Sarge McSarge, actually I was far more or a scaredy cat when I was younger. Am I alone in this? |
No! But I think I am now becoming more cautious again (in some things) with increasing years.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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espri, I'm dreading the day I turn back into a "Mavis"
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Poster: A snowHead
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The mind is a remarkable thing - as Henry Ford said "Whether you think you can, or you you think you can't, you are absolutely right".
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