What do clients expect from ski lessons

A snowHead

Just a question - prompted by a few posts on here.

I think there are few distinct types of ski lessons that clients are looking/hoping for, eg.

Something that is seen as a safe introduction to the sport for a 1st timer

Holiday ski school that will be safe, show them the area and maybe allow them to progress on what they learned last time they had a holiday.

A ski training course that is specifically aimed at improving a certain aspect of there skiing

A number of private lessons (could be 1 or more) which should allow for more specific (targeted) lesson

I holiday that is geared around the lessons. eg. Snoworks, etc

etc, etc.

Any ideas ?

A snowHead

value for money. Why is a ski lesson £40 per hour, but a driving lesson is less than £20 an hour?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

DaddyLouLou, that doesn't equate to value for money, though, and ski instructors don't sit on their back bottoms all summer waiting for the snow to arrive again. I suspect the price per hour is high because a) it's a captive market, b) competition is controlled by ski areas.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

I want to be able to ski something "properly" (or at least better) that I couldn't ski "properly" before.

That can be anything; gates, steeps, bumps, powder.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Mosha Marc,
I tend to deal mainly with holiday makers and find that a general ski course, concentrating on the basics (at thier level) with a little whizz now and again, is what is preferred rather than focusing on a specific skill.
Do get quite a few privates (due to language) so will ask client what they want 1st and then try to focus on that. Sometimes though they say something like "I want to do bumps" and then when we start I can see that they have no rotational skills or they angulate to initiate (both of which will mean they will never do bumps to a standard they want) so will look at that for the 1st period then try out a few drills in the bumps. Same with powder, we look at balance 1st then get into the fluffy stuff.

Generally I find that people want to "get" to a skill on a certain piste type and that it is something else that is holding this back.

Bit like me on gates Toofy Grin

(I'm a wimp)

After all it is free

Wayne, I'm sure you're absolutely right about the range of things people want - and I can imagine how an instructor's heart sinks when someone who doesn't have basic skills tells you they want to learn to ski bumps. In a day or so.

It would be useful, I think, if ski schools/instructors were more explicit upfront about what a lesson, or course, would consist of. I've been in groups where people have been keen to learn, and willing to do repetitive drills on easy slopes in order to do so. But I've also been in others who have - despite putting themselves in a high level group - moaned mightily about being expected to ski an unpisted red run after a lovely overnight snowfall (so none of the rest of us could do it either Sad

). Also, some people don't think they're learning anything unless they're whizzing round fast or tackling difficult runs. The majority of "off the shelf" large group holiday lessons are likely to fall into the second of your categories - people who want something different probably ought to seek out a specialist ski school/course.

As for the cost, why is it £20 for a driving lesson and £50 an hour for a massage or hundreds of pounds for a top accountant or lawyer? Supply and demand? Level of training and experience needed? £40 an hour seems more than reasonable to me. There are plenty of ski schools to choose from, in the search for "value for money" and I would hazard a guess that the majority of clients in a private ski lesson earn considerably more than the instructors teaching them.

You'll never answer that question Wayne, . I suggest you have a look at Alan Rogers book called Teaching Adults. People come with a multitude of reasons. Not probably a helpful answer.

Your example of

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

I'm sure everyone has their own view. From some recent coaching session experience what I personally don't want is to be encouraged to experiment, play around, find what works for me I want the specific benefit of an expert eye which honestly and very directly tells me what they think is wrong in form, technique etc and their recommendations for dealing with it. My requirements are a departure from a potentially in vogue model of positive reinforcement which is founded on not being "instruction" but "coaching" with the coach as a supporter on a personal journey of discovery.

NB this is also something I notice in the workplace in the way some people deal with junior staff who spend their time looking utterly bewildered at what they should do in any given situation as they've never been shown the "right" and "wrong" way to do things, just that "that's good but can you you just see if you can improve it".

I've done plenty of "discovering" on my own thanks, if I'm paying for something I want direct pay off.

edited for clarity as my first attempt was very poorly worded.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

beanie1, My friend(who is a ski instructor) and I call guided discovery "unguided guessing"... as it is usually implemented as "guess what particular answer I may be thinking of" any other solution will be deemed wrong... In general an unsatisfactory lesson... The silly thing is we are both people that like to explore very much - but dislike the "fake exploration" where you must come up with the outcome the person has thought of - but they have structured the whole experience so incredibly poorly that the chances of happening upon their solution without being a mind reader are astronomically small

This seems very popular with ski instructors who "swallow pearls of wisdom" from some godlike person... they cannot connect the pieces they hold as they do not understand them - but believe these gems to be unequivocally true because... umm they have no idea why... just they MUST be... As they now hold the pearl of wisdom we must all be able to guess it as a result of their little game... as they have no idea about the whole thing they cannot devise any learning experience that will give the student a reasonable chance to reach their god given conclusion...

I tend to tune out and try to hide when people start this rubbish up (not much better when implemented in public service jobs either IME)...

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Going slightly outside my comfort zone (to extend it), with someone better qualified assessing the risks and giving all necessary tips and feedback.

Oh, and most of all, fun! snowHead

A snowHead

beanie1, Sorry poor syntax on my part I'm saying I don't want a personal voyage of discovery in a lesson - I want bang for my buck, instruction not facilitation. That is I want the expert eye to identify certain things that will definitely improve my skiing, tell me about them in a no b/s sort of way and give me an action plan in the form of drills to deal with them.

I agree that guided self discovery works very well for some people and in longer term work training it is an important part of the mix. It isn't the answer to everything though.

I never know how to answer the question " so what do you wnt to work on?"

Short answer is I don't "want" to work on anything, I'd rather just ski , but if I'm having a lesson I want you, the expert, to tell me what I "need" to be working on.

A snowHead

fatbob,

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Hurtle, but wouldn't you answer by saying "I have just passed Test X which was all about skill A and now I want to work on skill B so that I can pass Test Y" Puzzled

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Hurtle, fatbob, I believe the reason instructors ask "what do you want to work on" is hinted at higher up in the thread, namely that people are spending large amounts of money and have very varying expectations. So customer service is as important as simple instruction and fault-finding. having said that, no instructor should have any problem with you replying "I want you to look at my skiing and tell me what I'm doing wrong!" Personally that's my favourite answer as you can go straight to their biggest fault rather than pandering to their unrealistic desire to be awesome in moguls after 2 hours Smile

guided discovery does need to well structured so that the client can feel their way towards the "correct" answer. it is often necessary to awaken the client to what is actually happening under their feet rather than them simply asking "did I do it?" after each run Puzzled

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

oh and we're secretly hoping the client will reply "actually I'm a good skier and would simply like to use you as a walking, talking piste map who'll join me for lunch" Cool

After all it is free

gilo, and of course we're hoping the instructor will say "Your skiing is already perfect - have your money back" wink

fatbob, depends how good lunch was wink

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

At the end of a lesson I want to be skiing "better" than I was before - and it's up to the instructor to work out what that requires. At intermediate level, that's pretty much it - and the answer will generally be balance and mobility. At a more advanced/expert level it's going to be a bit more focussed - do we want to ski better in a race-course, in a steep couloir, deep powder or in moguls? (but the answer will probably still be the same Wink

). The student can stipulate the target environment, and the instructor/coach should specify the action plan - which may well not involve a lot of skiing in that target environment. This is tough to get right in a single lesson, as the instructor may need a bit of time to work out exactly what are their learning style and specific sticking points (although with experience that process will get quicker) - although the sticking points will be more obvious at lower levels. At more advanced levels, the student may have a reasonable idea on where their weaknesses are, so that should assist in the diagnosis - but if you're paying an instructor for his opinion you should listen to it (and he should be able to justify it).

I normally go on full week courses, so I can develop longer term familiarity between student and coach and we get that deeper understanding - and as I'm normally on ski trips by myself we'll then get to places I couldn't go alone. (If I'm only interested in going to new places, rather than looking for specific technical improvements, then I'll get a guide and not an instructor.)

fatbob, I think the style that you are berating comes from an over-influence of "Inner Skiing". Despite the accolades this gets, I think the first half of it is grossly oversold BS - essentially "get your mind out of the way and your body will get on with skiing great" rolling eyes

. He finally (about half way down somewhere around p84), admits something like "Of course, getting your mind out of the way can't make you a great skier if you don't have the basic skills", and gets on with working how mind and body can work together. What he does do well though is describe how pushing the boundaries at each end of the "default" condition, develop personal feedback skills to determine what those variations do, and then work out where variations on the "default", as different environments may require a different balance of inputs in the compromise establishing the ideal for that environment. Guided discovery is useful in getting the student to focus on that internal feedback, but then does require a level of discussion immediately after the "discovery" phase - to provide the "guided" bit, comparing that personal experience with the wider canon.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

gilo,
I think there is a difference between the reasons that people take private or group classes.

May be way out here BTW ?
With privates I always ask what the client is looking for/ worried about / trying to get / etc. It depends on the age/ level / experience/ etc of the client how I ask it. The majority of people will say something like " I'd really like to be able to do XYZ" or "can we have a go at ABC" or " can you show me how to do HIJ". We then set off to an appropriate area for ABC/XYZ/HIJ and on the way I watch their skiing to see what can be seen. In general we will have a go at whatever and then see if it can (within the time) be worked on or just a small section.
With group classes I really just assess the group's level and then try and pick something to work on that is just slightly higher up to pole than what I've seen. (If you know what I mean). With the higher level group it's normally possible to have different people doing different things within the group. But with lower levels it really is just trying to get the whole group up the ability level.

Oh, all this is excluding the huge number of 15 years old that only want to be able to dry jump a 180y or 360y . Think it's just an age thing. Alway start off on a small kicker and then move downward to flat. Blush

Fall on my bum half the time - which the kids think is brill

snow reports

GrahamN,

Wayne, sounds to me like you must be a great teacher! Toofy Grin

You know it makes sense.

Hurtle,
Not really - would grade my self average.
I went on a week's course with Lee from Snoworks and that is what I compare my self against. He is what I would describe as a great teacher.

Mind you, I am MUCH better than Lee at falling over. I can do that anywhere. Sad

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Wayne, I'm a bit concerned about your sudden introduction of the term "dry jump" into a previously smut free thread - will hav eto reconsider whether my use of "personal discovery" is appropriate.

A snowHead

fatbob, shame on you Very Happy

A snowHead

Wayne, fatbob, Laughing

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Wayne, spot on, I was really referring to private lessons. in a group there is IMHO very little chance of everyones desires and abilities being congruent enough to be totally focused on one thing. what I will try and do, if say I have them for 5 days, is link together a bit of what each person wants to learn without forcing anyone. (9 times out of 10 that translates as giving some people an obvious route around the bumps while taking the rest through)

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Wayne,

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Hurtle,
Cheers for that. Interesting.

You'll need to Register first of course.

GrahamN, wasn't trying to berate anyone and I think the "guided discovery" technique has a role particularly in long term coaching relationships where an objective is to get students to self coach. I have to admit that I haven't analysed a lot of BASI instruction but I'm not a huge fan of the one off Canadian & US lesson where its all about the "customer experience" rather than improvement and no-one wants to risk offending their customer.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Hurtle, although you may agree with fatbob, in that you want direct no nonsense feedback your best breakthrough moment came as a direct result of learner guided discovery... if you think back on how the day went when you had your "lightbulb moment" when you finally stopped picking up your inner ski and i stopped answering your questions as to when and why you where doing it, you worked it out yourself and fixed it wink

....

fatbob, i used to be the same, no BS for me please and if i am rubbish tell me in so many terms. But that was when i took one maybe two lessons a year but after taking more and more instruction (and i have had loads over the last three years) i am wanting less and less direct feedback and more guiding...

had some really good video feedback on my recent telemarking and flyingstantoni got me doing a drill when i was about to retire tired and it really gelled and came together.

After all it is free

skimottaret, I don't think I'm dissing your and Rob's methods - just expressing a view that perhaps there is a bit too much nicey nicey in lessons in general. I've seen you both doing yor ritual humiliation warmups with your students so I don't think I'd say there's too much nicey nicey there - perhaps more Stockholm Syndrome wink

I can totally see the point of activating self learning but for me personally I've spent most of skiing time as an adult self learning and I'm not particularly dissatisfied with my ski ability. I'd also pay for a video only lesson if someone would just film me skiing around normally on mountain and then maybe we reviewed together later.

Wayne, as an older, female novice (is that the term following beginner or am I an "improver" - who knows!!?), I'd like to offer you my thoughts. I won't reveal my age, but suffice it to say my kids have left home. When I took my first ski trip (to Serbia) I was wary of booking a group lesson and booked a series of private lessons. I made the right decision as later in the week 2 other women who I'd met in the bar joined me for the last two days to share the lesson. They'd been in the adult beginners' group and been chucked out after 3 days without refunds, for failing to make enough progress & thus holding the young sporty types back. These two ladies were 2nd weekers having had a similarly demoralising "bend-ze-knees-and-follow-me" first week the previous year. They'd lasted about 3 days then before the group lesson was beyond them and they didn't ski again that week. Sadly the private instructor expected too much too soon of me and instilled serious fears, compounded by a very scary fall as the very last experience of the whole week. This could easily have convinced me I was unable to learn to ski but I enjoyed the atmosphere and I determined that it was NOT going to beat me.

So what do I want from a ski instructor? My lesson experience in the ideal world would be something like this:

1. Group based to offer camaraderie and peer support, but a SMALL group, say 3-5 people with perhaps a day off on the penultimate day if I am there with friends.

2. Duration:
a). Day 1: 1.5-2.0 hours, starting probably about 10/10.30, or whenever the BEST snow conditions are likely to be found for that resort/month. The aim would be to find my ski-legs and get me a confident start without overdoing it while I am still acclimatising.
b). Other days 2x90 mins with a coffee break/tutorial in the middle, with video feedback if possible

3. Content:
Essentially skill based. I lack confidence & fear falling/injury. I have an overactive sense fear - I know that most falls do not result in injury, yet I cannot convince myself of this sufficiently to "let go" & therefore progress IS hampered. I want to develop a very strong skill-base using speeds and terrain on which I am comfortable. Then I want to be taken a little out of comfort zone with the new skills. I don't want to face learning new skills whilst seriously out of comfort zone. At any one time I want to be pushing the envelope with regard to speed OR terrain OR technique - not the whole lot at once.

4. Attitude of instructor:
I need you to act as if you understand my fears even if you don't and that you are honestly keen for me to make progress. I need you to quickly show me that I can trust you such that I know if you ask me to do something you honestly believe that I can do it (me, not the "average" person). That way I will be encouraged to try with a certain degree of confidence.

5. Practice time
If I am with friends who I trust - fine. Otherwise I want someone to ski with to practise what has been taught - in my ideal world I'd like my instructor to suggest ski-buddies who might work well together. Two people will encourage each other. If I have nobody to be with I may be too fearful to do solo practice (that has happened). I suppose I am worrying I will come to grief with nobody around to help.

Comments on "The Inner Game"

I bought and read Inner Skiing. Overall I found it interesting, though as with any book you have to be selective. I think its key message is good - nobody can teach me what it feels like to ski well but they can guide me in learning to be aware of and responsive to my own physical feedback as well as to verbal feedback from my instructor. I do feel though there is definitely a danger of the book being interpreted as promoting largely unguided experiential learning. If I could just find it all out for myself why would I need an instructor?

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Hmm. Difficult job, isn't it? There are the clients who think too much and whose fears and anticipation of possible problems are getting in the way. Those that won't think at all, and want the instructor to do it for them. The ones who think they're ace, who are actually rubbish and the ones who will develop fast if given a good challenge but will get bored and not pay any attention otherwise (the 15 year old park wanabees are in that last category).

It's a wonder that any group lessons work well!

Help!!

What do clients expect from ski lessons

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees