 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all
I am currently trying to plan a weeks skiing in jan. This will be our 4th year skiing, having been to Bulgaria, France and then Switzerland. We are 2 adults and 1 7 year old. Like many, money is tight but we love skiing and really want to be able to go next year! My options seem to be - go back to Bulgaria as have seen cheapish packages (not too keen as I feel I may be disappointed). Option 2 is a DIY, flights to some obscure airport (Fricken something!) in Germany and then drive to maybe Oberstdorf. Was wondering - what are costs like for eating out etc? Also does anyone know any not too expensive accomodation? Last year we rented an appartment, would do this or go in a hotel.
Hope someone can help! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Contrary to what some believe, there is actually some very good skiing in Germany. And it can be done much cheaper than elsewhere in the Alps.
I know of no airport with "Fricken" in its name, but I assume you mean Friedrichshafen. You will no doubt receive lots of responses suggesting you go to Austria. Those posters may have a point, but I think you'd be able to go somewhere in Germany at less cost.
I have not been to Oberstdorf, but people I know who have rate it highly. If you were going to the Garmisch-Partenkirchen area I could give personal recommendations, but a lot of people actually rate Oberstdorf higher.
All I can say is that for accommodation, you will not find anything better than what is offered on the resort's website's central booking. A two room apartment should be possible for well under €100 per night, maybe even as low as €50.
In an apartment you can obvious cook your own meals. Dinner out would be around €10 per main dish, €3 for a beer. Children obviously cheaper. On the mountain goulash will cost you about €5.
If you were flying to Munich, you could get the train up to Garmisch and save the money of renting a car as well. If you take the right class of train, you can travel as a family for something like €30 for up to five people each way.
Good luck.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I will be first one to tell you to drive another few km and go to Austria. I didn't do much of skiing in Germany, but I normally get a day or two, when following WC (this year Garmisch and Ofterschwang). I'm sorry to say, but Garmisch is pretty much joke (Ofterschwang is not even that), not skiing resort. I don't know about ski lift ticket prices (I'm lucky enough that WC accreditation also includes few days lift pass), but it's just not worth for my taste, even if tickets would be half price of Austrian passes. Lifts are slow, 30 years old lifts (except for one chair lift and gondola from bottom of WC downhill course to top of it), skiing place, except for WC course (which on the other side might be a bit too much for average skiers), is so flat you would actually do better with xc skis. And snow conditions, with quite lot of snow in valley, were extremely bad, with courses full of stones.
So my suggestion would be to drive those few kilometers more, and you are in Innsbruck, which is just over the hill, and from there you have endless options.
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If you only take Garmisch-Partenkirchen as the "Classic-Area" directly in town, then yes it does disappoint. Not least because of lack of investment (it feels like it hasn't changed much since 1936). But your multi-day lift ticket actually covers a number (10, maybe?) of resorts in the area on either side of the German-Austria border. All of those resorts are easily reached within 30 minutes by frequent trains leaving from Garmisch-Partenkirchen. If taken as a whole, there is actually quite a lot on offer. Yes it is disjointed, but there is some great skiing if you know where to look. I also find that these areas and Garmisch itself have a lot more genuine "charm" than other resorts, and with a seven year old that may be a factor as well.
As I said, I've never been to Oberstdorf, but from what I've been told it is less disjointed. Hopefully someone with first-hand experience will offer a response.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Gotta agree with ami in berlin here. There is plenty of pretty reasonable skiing around Garmisch. Even the Garmisch 'classic' area has plenty to offer if you know what to look for. The WC Kandahar run is hard to beat for high speed cruising. For off piste there's plenty of nice little variants up on the Osterfelderkopf. The only problem with it is that it is slightly disjoint and the runs quite often end at the edge of a cliff, so you do have to know where you are going! And as he says, all you have to do is go a few Kms over the Austrian border to the Zugspitzarena... Great. For those who love powder the Zugspitze glacier area is fantastic, but the pistes are a bit boring.
The two ski areas in Oberstdorf deffo worth a visit! The Fellhorn/Kanzelwand area spans the Austrian border and has something for all levels. Further up Kleinwalsertal you also have two smaller ski areas, Walmendingerhorn and Ifen, which are 'family oriented' but also have really great powder skiing, . It's a bit disjoint, but that doesn't bother me cos I tend to pick a slope and do it all day  The Nebelhorn is probably only good for advanced skiers.
As ami says, it's the atmosphere that is different. Try it.
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Just wondering - how would the Oberstdorf are be for a timid second weeker? How busy would the runs be in mid march?
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| Draybs74 wrote: |
| Just wondering - how would the Oberstdorf are be for a timid second weeker? How busy would the runs be in mid march? |
Fine! The Fellhorn has an assortment of blue & red pistes. Also the Ifen area up in Kleinwalsertal is good for cruising!
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Garmisch-Partenkirchen isn't big enough to spend a week there but it does have its own charm and none of the loud music and heavy drinkers commonly featured in Austria large resorts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks for all your responses - will carry on doing my research and hopefully make a decisions!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If Garmisch is too boring for a week, has too slow lifts; what must the Sauerland be?
One of the largest area in Sauerland is Winterberg; and all its lifts are slow chairs and slower t-bars. Altitude difference 100 meters; so its basically like snowdome Landgraaf; without the roof 
Last winter I did Les deux Alpes on the tightest budget ever. I had an appartment costing me just 320 euro for the week in Januari and it had 4 real beds and a couch... Skipassprice seems less bad then common in the companie des alpes areas. Accomodation can be booked through the tourist office website.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hi There. I have spent 3 seasons living and skiing in the Oberstdorf area. If you are prepared to drive a short distance then you can have a thoroughly enjoyable week+.. As mentioned already the Fellhorn/Kanzelwand is a good option with something for everyone I would reccommend parking at the kanzelwand side as the qeues are normally shorter there and it has a great bar for a small gluwhein at the end of the day!! 
The Nebelhorn is probably best left to more adventurous skiers as there is only really one way back to the bottom station. A place that I would certainly consider visiting would be the sollereckbahn (Excuse the spelling) which is found between Oberstdorf and the Kanzelwand. It is excellent for a family with young children.
There is also a small Brit/Expat community which is quite comforting but in my experiences most locals are extremely friendly and are happy to speak English. There are a few Brit owned B&Bs in the area http://www.slideorglide.net/ is one of them. Living costs in the area are not overly inflated and quite reasonable.
You can drive from Friedrichshafen to Oberstdorf/Sonthofen in about 1hr 30/2hrs. If you want anything else please let me know. All I will say is dont expect Val d'isere but the Allgau Alps are absoulutely gorgeous and represent a fantastic way of skiing cheaply.
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cherub, my company's head office is less than an hour's drive from Garmisch, and many of my colleagues live between there an Munich. So for company meetings we have spent a day on the Zugspitz and also at a little resort called Lenggries which was quite nice.
But when I asked my colleagues where they choose to ski? Austria.
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You know it makes sense.
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baggers, Good to see at least some Brits getting to know Oberstdorf. It's a subject quite dear to me because my wife comes from there! For some reason the place seems to get almost completely ignored by the Brit TOs. Can't understand it!
andyph, Sure we go to Austria. But most of my colleagues agree that some of the best powder skiing anywhere can be had in Garmisch on the Zugspitze or in the Dammkar (Mittenwald). No need to look further than that.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just to put in a word for my neck of the woods, Reit im Winkl is another possible German ski area. There are beginners' lifts in and around Reit im Winkl itself but the real skiing is on the Winklmoosalm. You have to take a bus from Reit im Winkl village to Seegatterl to reach the area but there is a new gondola linking Seegatterl directly to the Winklmoosalm this winter (replacing the busses used previously). The Winklmoosalm is pretty much a beginners' area but it is linked to the Steinplatte on the Austrian side. The Steinplatte has more varied skiing but mostly not very extreme. Altogether good areas for beginners and intermediates. Whether it is enough to keep you happy for a week depends on how demanding your tastes are. Access could be via Munich, then train + bus (or taxi transfer).
I've had a couple of holidays in Oberstdorf (once staying "over the back" in the Kleinwalsertal) and enjoyed them. Maybe the area isn't used by Brit TOs but it seemed to be popular with the British Services when I was there (about 20 years ago now). That's a sort of tour too
I too would not damn Garmisch as primoz does, having enjoyed skiing there. However, I must admit that when I spent a short holiday in Garmisch a few years ago, we skied a different resort every day (Garmisch, Seefeld, Ehrwald). That was easy with a car, would be possible using the train but more awkward.
Garmisch is modernising some lifts in preparation for the World Championships in 2011. I believe the new Kandahar lift (4-seater chair) should be in operation in the coming season (reports in German at http://www.seilbahn.net/snn/bericht.php?wert=2305&wert1=1&zurueck=0 and http://www.alpinforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1652&p=4639961&hilit=garmisch#p4639961).
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Poster: A snowHead
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You could go to the Kleinwalsertal. Germans think this valley belongs to Germany (after all they had used the Deutschmark before the Euro came) while officially it is Austrian territory (though the only road there goes via Oberstdorf, Germany). Actually quite decent skiing to be found there and usually very snow-rich. Prices should be the same as in Germany and in most of Austria (but significantly cheaper than at the Arlberg for example).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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espri, I was up in the Garmisch classic area on my MTB a few weeks ago. They have made a lot of changes over the last couple of years and are still busy. The ancient old two man seat that took you up to the start house of the Kandahar has ( sadly ) been torn down and is being replaced. They are also building a tunnel under the Tröglhang which will allow you to ski down without getting onto the tröglhang ( that's the killer mogul field that the racers just jump all the way down ). Lots going on!
The Kandahar piste has also had major changes made to it a complete new course being opened up last winter . They call it the "Freie Fall" ( Free Fall ), which at 90% is the steepest piste in the world cup circuit 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hi cherub, some Austrian options for you.
Within about an hour South-east of 'Fricken'hafen airport of mostly autobahn driving you can reach the villages of Dalaas and Wald am Arlberg, plenty of reasonably-priced apartments/rooms in private chalets for euro 20-25 pppnt (check out the local tourist office website http://www.dalaas-wald.at/englisch/gesamt.htm), from this base you can ski the local Sonnenkopf area (5 mins drive), Stuben (10 mins drive), Zurs (20mins), Lech (25mins), St Anton (30mins). A cheap way into some of the best ski areas in Austria, if a little quiet in the evening. I did it for a weekend back in March.
Another area to consider would be the Montafon Valley around the town of Schruns, there are about half a dozen worthwhile family ski areas in the vicinity.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Steilhang wrote: |
| They call it the "Freie Fall" ( Free Fall ), which at 90% is the steepest piste in the world cup circuit |
This might be true, but it doesn't really mean all that much. There are parts of it, that are really steep (part just under old starthouse. Photo or two from last year's canceled men DH race on exactly this spot), but in average it's far from that bad.
Just a short story to show it's really not all that bad. Last year I was standing with bunch of coaches just on top of this steep part, waiting for men dh race to start. Race was on the end canceled due fog, and after we got clear to go from connection coach after cancellation was official, I went down with skis together with coaches we were chatting there for last 5 hours. We all thought all racers went down already, so we were skiing normally down the course when all of a sudden those guys start to bomb down the course between us. At such moments you have only two chances... go off the course and wait till everyone are down, or stop making turns and go straight down. After 5 hours of standing in fog and cold, second option sounded much better for me, so I went down in straight line (of course the way DH course was set) for last 2/3 of course.... with 15kg of photo equipment on my back. And I survived without problem, except for a bit scary 10m or so jump on last break On the other side, there's no way I would do something like this on some other courses, so I would say in general Kandahar is far from really bad and steep course, but it certainly has some extremely steep parts. And it's fun to go down... at least with GS skis.  But as I wrote before... this is pretty much only really cool course in Garmisch.
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primoz, As far as I'm informed, among the racers the Garmisch Kandahar is considered to be up there with the other classics in Kitzbühel and Wengen in terms of difficulty. But I guess they may have been lying to me, so I might have to bow to your superior knowledge
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There are many different things that determine some course being easy or not. So being steep is far from only thing that matters. I'm not saying Kandahar is easy for racing. Even just this first steep part (actually now it's not going to be first anymore) is really crazy... based on this what I was discussing with coaches, skiers have a bit less 150km/h on bottom of it, they go over jump completely blind, and just around 200m below jump, where speed is highest they have quite bad flat left turn. Combination of this, and flat part where you have to be good in "sliding" makes this course hard for racing. But as I said, for normal skiing, where time doesn't matter, there's just few extremely steep parts, otherwise it didn't seem too difficult for me.
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cherub, I have skied all of the German resorts mentioned above and most of the Austrian ones as well. I agree that the classic area of Garmisch in isolation is a reasonable but not fantastic place to ski albeit combined with the Zugspitze it is fairly snow sure and does have something for everybody. The Oberstdorf and Kleinwasertal resorts are pretty similar in that respect. With only 4 weeks of skiing and a 7 year old I would council you against the Fellhorn as a lot of the terrain is fairly steep in places and that may limit your enjoyment. That said, there are options that would suit you in that area, particularly the Sollereck. Should Garmisch be your preferred option then with the Zugspitze Arena Ski Pass then there are a number of areas to ski but I suspect the best resort for your family would be Ehrwald. This is a family friendly resort that is ideal for beginners and improving intermediates. The run off the mountain is a civilised affair which could be skiied frequently as the uplift is excellent. Lermoos is across the valley and offers slightly more challenging terrain as does Berwang/Bichlbach. Mittenwald is another option.
In summary, yes Austria will undoubtedly offer more. From Fredrichshafen then the St Anton/Lech/Zurs option is attractive just not on a budget. A flight to Munich (Don't discount Stuttgart as Germanwings are very competitive) followed by a 1hour 30 drive - 2hr drive will see you in Garmisch or indeed the Allgau. I don't think you would be dissapointed with either choice.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| clem156 wrote: |
| cherub From Fredrichshafen then the St Anton/Lech/Zurs option is attractive just not on a budget. |
I beg to differ, it's nearer and easier to get to from 'Fricken'hafen (1h10 to Dalaas/ Wald am Arlberg) than most of the German resorts suggested, it needn't cost significantly more, 6 day pass is €185 for the Happy Ski Card (Garmisch and Tyrolean resorts around the Zugspitze) compared to €198 for the Arlberg. A bowl of Gulaschsuppe is €4-6 everywhere I went, even in Lech.
By staying back from the main Arlberg resorts in Klostertal and commuting as I recommended, accommodation costs a fraction of Lech/Zurs/St Anton and you can eat out cheaply (pizza €7) even the top-notch Gasthof Rossle at Braz wasn't exorbitant. You could always self cater and pack lunch if you really want to economise. Free parking by the lifts at Lech and Zurs, refundable with lunch at Rendl in St Anton. Cheaper ski hire at Milanovic by the Sonnenkopf gondola than the hire shops in the Arlberg resorts.
I suppose the only way to really make a big saving DIY is by tying some cheap flights with cheap public transport transfers to value s/c accommodation accessing the lifts by skibus. Problem is flights to airports with better transport links tend to be more popular/pricey, so then essential car hire could add to the cost unless you fill all the seats, accommodation that is walking distance to lifts of big km resorts is always at a premium. The eternal quandary of price vs convenience vs quality.
Best value of all of course would be to bag a last-minute catered/hotel deal to anywhere there's decent snow.
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I second everything what has been said by luigi. Prices really drop significantly with distance from the centre of the Arlberg. And skibus transportation is quite convenient.
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