 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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No idea about the tipping in this specific area but I expect that its a lot like a cruise - may superficially seem like a dream life but not that great if you're paid minimum or a basic wage and essentially have to nanny & flatter meadow skipping rich folk all day plus pay your mortgage on a property whose price was inflated by said rich folk. kierongaul may be able to comment on expectations at his place.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bergmeister, I think your reference to cultural differences is at the heart of the matter. Generally in North America it is accepted that in the service industries (of which category I would think cat ski guiding is a clear example), it is expected to tip 15% or thereabouts. The pay rates in such jobs assumes this level of tipping, and I gather that in the US at least so do the tax authorities eg waiters pay income tax on a certain assumed amount of tips.
You and I may not agree with the system, but it's their country, and when in Rome.... 
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 20-08-09 22:13; edited 1 time in total
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Bergmeister, tip. Get on with it. You are essentially applying a sanction if you do not. If the service is poor, by all means cut back. But otherwise tip.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bergmeister, If you know up front that a 15% tip is expected then youshould factor that into the cost and anticipate paying it. But two questions come to mind:-
1. What if you don't know beforehand about the expected tip?
2. What if the guide has been grumpy and detracted from your enjoyment?
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| Quote: |
but not that great if you're paid minimum or a basic wage
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Sorry, but Ime thinks "au contraire." Don't the majority of us on here agree that we would do the job for nothing? (Well, for board and lodgings I mean).
Otherwise, why do so many of us hanker over spending a season skiing at a cost of thousands of pounds and (in a number of cases highlighted on here) with no income? 
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Bergmeister, Don't get me wrong it would be a hell of a step up on most ski bum jobs but given that you're vesting the guys and girls with a lot of responsibility for everyone's safety and they would have a stack of snow safety qualifications I'm not sure many of us would pick it as a full time job. I skied with one guy in Canada who had basically worked for free as a tail guide for the cat ski op in Revelstoke (pre RMR) for a month every winter. He was from the prairies so the tips, assuming he got them, would have been his beer & food money on his holiday. He said most of the job was digging people out of treewells and finding lost skis, but it was worth it for him overall.
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Bergmeister, I think the term you are looking for is "hell on earth". Sure, the guides get to ski great powder but then they have to look after snivelling cheap skates like yourself. To be fair, being a cat guide must be a lot better than being a ski instructor but spending an entire day looking after people who can often only just ski rather than being out skiing laps with your buddies sucks. Trust me, I've had to do it, lots. And why would I put myself through it? In the hope that at the end of the day I might get a tip.
Sack up. You know that you have to add 15% before booking it. If you can't afford it, don't do it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Sorry, but Ime thinks "au contraire." Don't the majority of us on here agree that we would do the job for nothing? (Well, for board and lodgings I mean).
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careful... can I hear the tniy pitter-patter of fingertips on keyboards from Masque and nixmap?....
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Would you happily tip the Guide 15% if he dug you out of an avalanche and kept you alive?
How about if you gave them that responsibility and by their knowledge and judgment you skied in a much safer environment?
Guides do tough jobs well beyond what they get paid.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Slight thread drift....but i teach because i really enjoy it. I certainly don't teach because it's well paid.....it's not i can assure you. If a client or group tip me...i'm more grateful than they know!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Bergmeister wrote: |
| Sorry, but Ime thinks "au contraire." Don't the majority of us on here agree that we would do the job for nothing? (Well, for board and lodgings I mean). |
Not as a career.
As nice as it might sound all those people who do jobs that we might aspire to still have rent, bills, etc.
I think the American service culture is a good one. Whenever I've withheld a tip it's always sent a clear message to the server / staff that I wasn't happy. About half the time it's resulted in the manager coming over to see what's up. A few times it's got the entire billed waived. It once got me barred from a restaurant - which isn't a great loss given how bad the food and service was.
Personally, I'd go with the expectation of paying a 15% tip if you're happy and a 20-25% tip if they've done a really good job.
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Bergmeister, how many people on the cat trip? If they're getting 15% from every guest, the guides must be raking it in!!! I'd say tip, but don't feel obliged to give 15%, that is a lot when the cost was £1200. It's a bit different to tipping 15% for a meal that only cost £50 - £100.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I'd say tip, but don't feel obliged to give 15%, that is a lot when the cost was £1200. It's a bit different to tipping 15% for a meal that only cost £50 - £100.
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This is a good point - the amount of time, effort and expertise someone has put in is not necessarily related to the size of the bill paid by the client. The "percentage" basis is a pretty crude indication. Better than nothing, I suppose. Why should I be tipped $X for carrying one meal to the table but $2X for carrying a different choice?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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pam w, I guess the 15% is just a guide. I'd have thought the percentage tipped should go down as the value of the service goes up.
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Poster: A snowHead
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TIP >> your Ski Guides, Ski Teachers. Ski Bums this is quite normal even in Europe.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Don't they get taxed in N America on the expectancy that they are earning 15% tips, which are taxable? So if you tip less than this they are still being taxed as if they got 15%?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Bergmeister wrote: |
| Quote: |
but not that great if you're paid minimum or a basic wage
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Sorry, but Ime thinks "au contraire." Don't the majority of us on here agree that we would do the job for nothing? (Well, for board and lodgings I mean).
Otherwise, why do so many of us hanker over spending a season skiing at a cost of thousands of pounds and (in a number of cases highlighted on here) with no income? |
Don't be ridiculous, this is how they make a living in the winter. Tipping is how things are done over there. If you don't want to tip, then don't book.
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| cathy wrote: |
| Don't they get taxed in N America on the expectancy that they are earning 15% tips, which are taxable? So if you tip less than this they are still being taxed as if they got 15%? |
Yes, you're right.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
athy wrote:
Don't they get taxed in N America on the expectancy that they are earning 15% tips, which are taxable? So if you tip less than this they are still being taxed as if they got 15%?
Yes, you're right.
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But wouldn't they then declare the actual tips on their tax return (assuming they hadn't earnt 15% in tips?)
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Oooh, that was my 4000th post!!! 
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beanie1, yes (at least for restaurant employees). However note:
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| As an employer, you must ensure that the total tip income reported to you during any pay period is, at a minimum, equal to 8% of your total receipts for that period. |
So if several Bergmeisters decide not to tip, it looks a serious problem to me. Someone will have to cough up - and the staff will be hit, since I don't see the employer taking the hit.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Quote: |
athy wrote:
Don't they get taxed in N America on the expectancy that they are earning 15% tips, which are taxable? So if you tip less than this they are still being taxed as if they got 15%?
Yes, you're right.
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But wouldn't they then declare the actual tips on their tax return (assuming they hadn't earnt 15% in tips?) |
As tips are generally given in cash they could just make it up. Which is why the IRS just assumes 15% and taxes on that. Gives a good incentive to provide good service.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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[quote="flangesax"]
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| careful... can I hear the tniy pitter-patter of fingertips on keyboards from Masque and nixmap?.... |
I think that there are already sufficient threads for that particular discussion 
The tipping thing is a conundrum that I'm only just getting my head around but with an English accent I've been forgiven my numerous lapses. In this case is it the company that's expecting a tip or the individual(s) doing the driving/guiding? It's ridiculous to expect a gratuity of 15% on a $1000 contract.
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PJSki, not for all types of jobs though surely? I know lots of guys who've worked as ski instructors in the US for example, and whilst they've raved about some of the great tips they get (not from everyone), pretty certain they didn't get as much as 15% of the lesson value for all the lessons they taught, and nor are they taxed on that assumption (and if they were then they didn't know about it!!)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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it is the way they do it..rightly or wrongly... and you should factor it in ..
It is, of course, entirely up to you whether you pay it in the end, which will depend on how well you think they did..
But...they have at least pointed out the fact that it will be an issue you will come across..
so at least you know the trip/costs will/could be 15% or so more than advertised..
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Do people on here tip their guides in Europe? If so, how much?
Sometimes I forget to, and many seem to feel they don't need to, but an 8% - 10% tip on a day costing, perhaps, £50 or £60 each seems reasonable (and a big contrast to the US example we are discussing).
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snowball, I may buy them lunch or a few beers afterwards, not sure I have ever tipped a European guide though?? We did explain to an Italian guide what 'taking the wee wee' meant, which must have been worth far more than any tip
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You know it makes sense.
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There's a bit of a logical problem here with percentages. If the same guide would take you to lift-served powder (through gates that are visible only to guides, let's say - it's a fantasy!) you might be charged $200, with an expected $30 tip. By the time you pay for the vehicle and the diesel and the driver it costs $450, with an expected $65 tip. So you're tipping the guide more for the same service. So logically it doesn't make sense.
But it's the norm. You know in advance what it will cost with the tip, you have to make the decision whether or not you want to pay the final price, including tip. Keep the tip in your pocket until you're happy but then hand it over with a smile; you know you'll feel grubby if you don't.
DJ
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DJ, Some of the problem lies with us not fulling understanding the overall situation here - I agree that 15% of the cost divided by 2 guides per group seems high but what if they have to share tips out to the drivers, mechanics, cat road builders, lunch cooks etc. This is why I likened the multiday cat trip to a cruise in which there are lots of staff to share in the tip pool. But tipping in percentage terms is always illogical - when I worked as a waiter in the US as a student I used to love tables that ordered decent bottles of wine, no increment in effort but my tip could be 2-3 times that of another table eating the same meal.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
I'd say tip, but don't feel obliged to give 15%, that is a lot when the cost was £1200. It's a bit different to tipping 15% for a meal that only cost £50 - £100.
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This is a good point - the amount of time, effort and expertise someone has put in is not necessarily related to the size of the bill paid by the client. The "percentage" basis is a pretty crude indication. Better than nothing, I suppose. Why should I be tipped $X for carrying one meal to the table but $2X for carrying a different choice? |
Because that's what happens in the real world. Eat in Pizza Express, drinking tap water and the 10% tip on a half price £8 pizza currently £4 is 40p.
Go to a proper restaurant with a bottle of '82 Latour and the total bill is £1,000 giving the waiter £100 at 10%. He might serve 10 Pizzas in the same time, but that would still only be £4.
If you can afford the CAT ski trip at 1200, then you can afford to tip 180 - if that's the going rate. For a whole day that's very cheap compared to your BUPA consultant, your solicitor who writes your will or your accountant. And of those three, only the BUPA guy has your life in his hands.
If you fish a £200 a day Tweed beat, you'd be tipping the ghillie £20-30 plus £20 per fish. And that's for tipping some miserable Scots g1t who has been doing it for 30 years and has no enthusiasm at all. In fact you'd have a much better day if he'd just b*88** off and leave you alone. But no, he's standing there making "helpful" comments about how sir can do it better in the knowledge of earning his tip.
I confess the last string of ski lessons I had, I didn't tip my instructor. An Italian bloke who spent most of the time bathing us in smoke on the chair lift and was so dull as a teacher I skipped the last day. The chalet staff, however, I did tip 10% of the package holiday cost.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 21-08-09 15:24; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Most often tip Euro guides...
I think in LG we rounded up the fee so he got 10 Eu of each of us.. so about 50-60 eu a day tip..
We booked him direct so his price didn't..as far as I know..incorporate the guides office as it undercut it by about 30 eu..IIRC..
I think Lunch, beers or a 10% plus tip is there or thereabouts...but sometimes they have their lunch deals going on anyway..
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FOR tips:
1) Guilds (and driver and such) are paid very little so tips are their main income.
2) Just consider the price of the trip as 1.15 x the listed price, and decide accordingly whether it's worth booking or not.
3) Staffs are more motivated to perform well. Or they risk receiving low tips (I tip nonetheless, just different amount. If the "service" is really bad, I give a rediculously low tip, like $1 or 1 cent as a sign of my displeasure!)
AGAINST tips:
Bad business model to expect client to tip.
See (3) above.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
So if several Bergmeisters decide not to tip
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I've not actually said we didn't tip... we left a very decent tip as it happens as it was a great trip and the guides were excellent.
I'm just trying to make the point however, which a number have missed, that, whichever way you look at it, surely the majority of us would consider cat ski guiding as a dream job - notwithstanding the above comments on qualifications, safety, saving clients lives and digging them out of tree wells. It would be interesting to hear the views of a guide. Would they, for example, share the view of a French guide who led our group down the Vallee Blanche a couple of years ago? When he found out I worked in an office he said, "This is my office. When I come to work each day I realise how fortunate I am."
I spent 6 years working as a part time instructor on a dry slope and loved it - admittedly, a far cry from cat skiing but a highly rewarding and enjoyable job in the ski industry nonetheless. I did that for the same reasons as GreyCat mentioned above.
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I reckon I get much more fresh track vertical with a guide in Europe at a fraction of the cost, compared to Cat skiing in US - which is why I probably won't do it.
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Bergmeister, just because the guides enjoy their job doesn't means they don't NEED the money. The tips are not exactly charity. It's part of the pay structure in N. America.
If the services are bad, by all means don't tip. Otherwise, it's well... expected. So the guides probably count on some of it as part of their income.
If there's no expectation of the tips, the owner probably would have factor the higher cost of guides and charge higher amount for the package.
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Bergmeister, sorry, you've lost me. I know a really good orthopaedic surgeon who really loves his job - would not do anything else. Nobody has suggested he should work for low rates. A tip is part of the guide's income he can reasonably expect if he's doing his job well. Even then, I bet he gets a lot less than my mate.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| If you can afford the CAT ski trip at 1200, then you can afford to tip 180 |
That's a ridiculous statement. He can't if he only has 1200.
Maybe he saved hard to scrape that and therefore only has 1200.
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| Gazzza wrote: |
| James the Last wrote: |
| If you can afford the CAT ski trip at 1200, then you can afford to tip 180 |
That's a ridiculous statement. He can't if he only has 1200.
Maybe he saved hard to scrape that and therefore only has 1200. |
Yeah, like he only has 1200 in the world. Anyway, they made the tip side of things clear when he book. He shouldn't have fixated on the 1200 figure. The true cost is 1200 plus the tip. The tip will be earned and should be paid.
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FAQ
) we were left in no uncertain terms by the operator that a gratuity was expected of (wait for it) about 15%. Given that the trip cost us about £1200 each I'll leave the maths to you to work out the tip 
) . But if an employer is expecting tipping to substitute for paying a fair wage then there's summat wrong with the business 
