 Poster: A snowHead
|
We are thinking of driving to France or maybe Austria to ski this winter, because of the cost of hire cars and flights it looks like the cheapest alternative plus of course being able to take lots of food and drink with us.
Have read lots of threads on here but confused about the need for winter tyres and/or chains?
Plus there is a lot of conflicting stuff about telepeage is it worth getting one just for a week?
Thanks in advance
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Flip Crawford2, it's not worth getting a badge for a week, use the credit card lane instead. Not worth the cost of the winter tyres either, but do get snowchains.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Tyres - Not required, but can be helpful in avoiding the need to put on chains.
Chains - mandatory requirement to carry, even if winter tyres are fitted. (buy on-line before you go and DO a test fit in the dry)
Telepeage, depends which week. If its a peak time (half term) it can save you an hour or so of queuing over the journey as a whole. Only you can judge How much avoiding an hour stuck in toll queues is worth to you.
all IMHO of course. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Flip Crawford2, Chains are mandatory and might even be useful in the UK on the odd occasion. Winter tyres are are a good idea if you're going to do more than just drive to the hotel, park up and then drive home. Can't comment on the telepeage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
I agree with Helen Beaumont.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Helen Beaumont wrote: |
| Flip Crawford2, it's not worth getting a badge for a week, |
Although it never runs out, so if you go every year, or more than once a year, you can accumulate the benefit (and the smug-factor) 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| I agree with Helen Beaumont. |
Me too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Flip Crawford2,
If you're thinking of driving to Austria then you need to look into getting winter tyres.
The following thread has some info of what the requirements are in Austria (and Germany) http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=53701
Winter tyres make a significant difference to driving and safety, not only when there's snow on the roads but also when its wet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
I don't agree with anyone telling winter tires are not worth. Even if it's just a week, hell even if they are just for 2 days (driving down to Austria/France and driving back home) they are worth. What will you do if it starts snowing while driving through Germany? Will you go off the road and wait in roadside hotel until it ends and roads are clean? I doubt you are willing to spend 3 or 4 days in hotel in middle of nowhere waiting for roads to be clean. So I guess you will continue. Considering I live in middle of Alps, and make huge amount of kilometers on snow every year, I know how it feels driving on snow, wet road or even dry road at minus degrees... with winter tires and with summer tires.
So my only question to anyone telling winter tires are useless is, is your life and life of your family really worth just 300eur or so? Mine is not, so personally I would buy them without even thinking.
PS: Snow chains will help on snow, but not on snow which you get on highways when it starts snowing. So snow chains are for times when you are stuck in 30cm new snow up in mountains, not for driving in 5cm wet snow on Germany highways.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Flip Crawford2, If (as a result of all the posts above) you feel you need to get Snow tyres, you could always compromise on some M+S (that's Mud and Snow not Marks and Sparks) rated rubber like Pirelli Scorpions, which will have more grip in the slush and 5cm of Snow than summer tyres but not wear out quite as quickly nor get as hot in the dry as true Winter Tyres.
I ran a set all year round on my last car and they were fine, gripped excellently in the wet too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
I'm under the impression that snow tyres are mandatory for Austria following a change in the law last year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
anyone telling winter tires are useless is
|
Nobody is saying that. But (apart from the thing about their being compulsory in Austria) I agree with Helen Beaumont too. I suspect that only a tiny minority of the Brits who drive to the Alps each year for one week have snow tyres. But chains - and the ability to put them on in a cold dark snowy night - essential.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Also, I think it's a bit unfair to make anyone feel guilty by doing the "how much is your family's life worth" guilt trip. Nobody who wanted to minimise the risk to their family's life would be driving to the Alps anyway. A lot safer to fly. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
When the oncoming ESF instructor 200 yards down the road overtakes blind, brakes and then spins his car through 540 degrees you will be glad you bought winter tyres. Best 120EUR Swirly and I spent all season given that neither of us is presently dead. And I don't even want to think about the issues with windblown snow we had on the Lauteret.
If you are intending to drive only in good weather then you will likely be fine. Otherwise, as primoz points out, you may have significant problems.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
life of your family really worth just 300eur
|
Of course not - I've insured them for a lot more than that and I'm the one with the most air bags 
I accept the points - but for a week a year for most people they aren't worth it. This isn't just for the UK but northern France, Holland, Belgium etc. Different situation where they are a legal requirement of course.
For parts of SE England the temperature doesn't drop low enough for them to be effective. Yes they are slightly better in the wet, but so is leaving a decent stopping distance.
I do carry chains of course and always make sure I have at least 4mm of tread on my normal tyres
Agree that multi-trips or whole seasons would see them as an essential.
For avoidance of doubt I am only talking driving to France
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
pam w, to be honest, I don't care if I make anyone feel guilty. You might not think like this, but this way I also protect myself. To be honest, I don't give a sh*** if someone goes out in snow storm with summer tires on, as long as he or she will get off the road and kill him or herself. But as soon as that spinning car closes on my car, I do start to care. And believe me or not, this is happening regularly in places around here. I somehow agree about flying, but then again it gives you whole lot of other troubles, so car is, at least for me, much more practical.
As far as compulsory goes, I'm not 100% sure they really are compulsory like this. We have this law for 10 or 15 years, about compulsory winter equipment here in Slovenia. But this means, winter tires on all 4 wheels are compulsory between 15th of November and 15th of March. If you don't have winter tires, summer tires with at least 4mm of profile and obligatory snow chains in trunk are compulsory. From this what I heard, it is or at least it was, same also in Austria. But it can be, that they changed this and made winter tires compulsory. And in my opinion it would be good call anyway.
| boris wrote: |
| Of course not - I've insured them for a lot more than that and I'm the one with the most air bag |
Hehehe good one Who needs airbags for passengers. Good insurance is much better 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Just to try and level the argument out a bit, we live in North Wales and for the last few years have fitted M & S marked winter tyres to all our cars, only one of which is used regurlarly in the French alps. The M&S tyres definitely have a better stopping distance on vey wet roads, especially in cold weather and when it snows the difference between them and summer / allseason tyres is unbelievable. THe latest winter tyres, such as veredstein snowtrac 3, make using chains a very, very rare occurrence. We run some of the part worn winter tyres throught the summer, they have 2 separate wear indicators, one to tell you when they are no good for snow and a second one to say when they are good for nothing. Most people would probably not notice the very slight change in the handling of the car that comes from using winter tyres in the summer. THe initial purchase price of the tyres is much the same whatever for the same quality level. Try them for this winter, you might be surprised.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skitow, I'm not against winter tyres at all, we have M&S ones on our car anyway. Just an opinion that on a new car which won't need it's tyres replacing before the ski season, for someone only doing one trip, it was not worth it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
We need to buy 2 new snowtyres for the coming winter. We have 2 Michelin Alpins, which are getting a bit tired - still legal but not good enough tread depth for snow - and two Dunlop Winter Sport M3 which should be good for another winter. Any suggestions as to the best two new tyres to go with the Dunlops?
We are going to be driving down to the Alps in October - apparently snow tyres can be usefully cheaper down there. But is that still the case with the grim exchange rate?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
pam w,
| Quote: |
the grim exchange rate
|
Got down to 1.14 this pm 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Boredsurfing wrote: |
pam w,
| Quote: |
the grim exchange rate
|
Got down to 1.14 this pm |
We'll catch up, it's just that Germany's all optimistic of a recovery based on manufacturing. Who needs engineering? Services and finance are all you need for a healthy economy...
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Lets try not to go into the ins and outs of Austrian winter tyre laws (again)... there are tons of threads on it.
Basically it is not law to have them but if you are pulled over without them and there is snow or slush on the road you will be fined as it is clearly a time when you need them.... there that is it in a nutshell!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| pam w wrote: |
| Any suggestions as to the best two new tyres to go with the Dunlops? |
ADAC and their tests are normally my source of info, which tires are good. Most of other Auto clubs, auto magazines etc. take those tests as reference, so I guess they are quite good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
UK motorists are seldom selective about tyres and if they do they want high speed and high mileage. This type of summer high speed tyres can be lethal for the Alpine winter at the hands on an inexperienced driver.
The all season type of tyres with M&S block pattern in newish condition is a compromise whereas a true winter tyre, with softer compound and devoted micro grooves will be good for the general European winter condition. On mountain passes snow chain can be mandatory. Ultimately one can drive a 4x4 on winter tyres and carry a set of snow chains.
The majority of European skiing resorts do a great job to clear the snow on the road continuously but there will be times when the snow has not been cleared and the motorists have to rely on the gripping properties of their tyres. In such a case a good set of tyres make a lot of difference whether you can complete the journey as scheduled or wait for the road to be cleared.
Some skiing regions can have less snow than the others. Austria and Switzerland, for having loads of mountains and hills, are generally "whiter" than France and so mortorists there will feel safer with a decent set of tyres. It is all down to the tread patterns, its depth and the properties of the rubber compound. Some prior considerations will save a lot of hassles and inconvenience.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
not to derail (I crack myself up!) the thread, but would folk say that winter tyres or proper "all-terrains" are better for 4x4s. Had a fair whack of sustained road impacts last year with snow and while my big wagon coped better than pretty much everything, was wondering weather (there i go again!) I should switch to something other than my all-seasons when they come around for a change - probably actually in time for proper winter. Dont think my car can accomodate chains - on the front at least
here's hoping we have some problems with snow on the roads this year eh
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 27-08-09 12:49; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Agree with the first post from primoz. The main difference with winter tyres is the composition of the rubber, not the tread pattern. Summer tyres lose their adhesive properties when the temperature drops below 8 degrees C and are only 20% as good as winter ones. They are not compulsory in Switzerland but if you are involved in a "sliding" accident you are in trouble with the police and your insurers. I have driven to the Alps on summer tyres in the past but wouldn't do it now. Chains are an insurance policy. You can rent them, but they can be bought quite cheaply in hypermarkets close to the mountains. You can't use chains on motorways, but may not be allowed to drive up to the resort without them if snow is falling or forecast.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Flip Crawford2, Polorised opinions eh?
I purchased a set of winter tyres and steel rims (M&S) when I got my new car 4 years ago. They have been used on all the ski trips I've made, that must now be 8 trips at least. They make a significant difference in grip in the snow and cold wet conditions, I haven't had to resort to chains when its snowed. I still have chains though. When the tread has worn below the snow indicators I'll use them in UK winter, then buy new again. I expect they'll last the life of this car.
If it's for one trip, and you are not bothered about grip, and it's a cost saving excercise, then no, but if you intend doing multiple trips in winter over several years, then yes buy them. IMHO, its good insurance.
Chains. I'd suggest you buy the best you can afford in the UK. Make sure you can fit them, have a practise. Regarding buying them abroad, you can spend some time of your trip in a French supermarket, you may save a few £'s but you also may have less choice. I wouldnt buy them on Service station. By the time you realise you may need them you may be half way up a mountain. In an nominated area if you get stopped by the police and you dont have them they will turn you back. Do you really want to be hunting for a place that sells chains in a snow storm? There'll already be enough people doing the same! I'd rather be in resort skiing!
Now for Telepeage. Several wont consider them necessary ever, some only if you are a planning a multi-trip. Originally I travelled alone and having to unbuckle and reach across to the booth was a pain in the ars*, particularly with impatient 'locals' sounding their horns!. There were also significant delays at several peage. I've now had a Sanef tag for 5 years and its saved me hours of time in avoiding the peage queues. The original 30e I paid as a deposit was well worth it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
if you intend doing multiple trips in winter over several years
|
but don't forget if you change cars you will probably have to change tyre size, too. Also, if you want to buy in the UK - don't leave it till the last minute. It can be quite difficult. When we changed cars in February a few years ago, and just had a few days to get it ready, it took me several hours on the internet and telephone to locate snow tyres in the right size. Black circles had them, but they don't at the moment - I just emailed them as we need two new ones. They're easy to buy around Alpine areas, but you're unlikely to want your summer tyres kicking around inside a crowded car.
Now let the arguments start about 2 or 4 snow tyres.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Flip Crawford2, I have M & S tyres permanently on my van and chains for when it's bad, but it's different to primoz, who actually has to drive around int he winter. I am in the village and don't get out of it very much for 5 months so if it's very bad I can choose not to drive. For one trip, and going to a major resort (assuming it has a good access road), I personally wouldn't bother with winter tyres of any description, but do second the point made by saikee, that the very low profile, high speed tyres on many cars in the UK are worse than useless. If these are your tyres then get some spare wheels from Ebay and kit them out with higher profile M & S. You just swap wheels as required.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I had full on Winter Tyres for last season - yes they had fab grip and no i didn't need to put on chains. But given as I wasn't working and could choose when to go up/down the hill, I can't say that I really needed them when staying at 1650m in Paradiski. Obviously if it had dumped loads then I would be on the hill rather than trying to drive up and down it.
Previously I'd only ever had chains for one-off trips to the alps, so I wouldn't say that winter tyres are necessary for a one week trip bur chains are a must have.
Telepeage - again not necessary but a nice to have if driving on own - definitely should have sorted that for last season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
A couple of seasons ago I drove from Les Arcs to Calais in atrocious weather conditions, with heavy snow from Lyon almost as far as Calais itself. There were cars, including 4x4s, sliding off the road all over the place. I was eternally gratefully that I was on winter tyres. I see them a bit like insurance - hopefully you won't need the extra grip that they give, but when you do need it (and it's not always the last couple of KM up the hill) you are very grateful that you took the decision to buy them. Although they are an extra expense it's worth pointing out that you only use one set of tyres at a time, so when you have winter tyres fitted your all-season tyres aren't clocking up any mileage.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I must admit I thought that winter tyres were compulsory in most countries. I've driven to Switzerland several times to ski (I know its not the countries mentioned above), but have been told that in bad conditions the Swiss police will turn away people from the mountain passes if they don't have on. Personally I wouldn't drive to ski in the alps anywhere without them, legal requirement or not - I keep a set that I get changed each year for the trip and keep safe trip to trip. They don't cost much if you keep your car and get several uses out of them. Sometime people in the buy and sell section have a decent set for sale second hand - it might be worth a look. Or a 'Wanted' thread in the same section. Also, being a lone driver I find my telepeage a huge help and even with a passenger now I would travel with it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Driving a right hand car in Switzerland by myself I found kitchen tongs useful for collecting and inserting tickets at car parks as well as on French motorways!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
welshskier, until you drop the ticket!! LOL Then there is still the problem of the window winder if you don't have electric windows
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
