 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Looks like he's trying to shift the blame for getting his wife in the poo-poo.
I am inherently 'anti-suing' anyway, and dread to think how lawyers who make a career out of suing the NHS are able to sleep at night.
How a volunteer organisation which has no requirement to provide a service can be sued for not doing something they are not required to do simply beggars belief. The husband should be sued by his kids (if he's got any) for getting their mother into a life-threatening (and ultimately fatal) situation.
The first comment sums up my thoughts:
| Dr. Howard wrote: |
| Litigation, or even the threat of litigation, will be the end of volunteer search and rescue. Nice legacy to leave in memory of your wife. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skisimon, spot on. Total muppet.
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This is how we end up with nanny state laws.
Without volunteer rescue we would not have the freedom to enjoy the mountains. Those who provide the protection will ultimately have the say on what we can and cant do where we can and cant go. If this is not provided by volunteers who love and appreciate the mountain environment, and give up their time so we can enjoy ours, it will ultimately be controlled by bureaucrats.
The first line of protection still lies with each individual when they decide where to ski. We all have to take responsibility for our own actions and the consequences of them, otherwise it will be done for us by the laws of the land 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Seems to me it was a waste of the volunteers effort to rescue the husband who sued the rescue team in the end.
May be the best solution is before the rescue team starts rescuing a person get he/sheto sign a piece of paper to relieve the rescuers all responsibility and promise write 10,000 "Thank you" to each rescuer.
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Lets just hopr that the judge throws out the case and charges the idiot husband for all cost. As the SAR teams are operating for the RCMP and are not supposed to undertake missions without official instructions there are probably not liable anyway.
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How sad - how can you sue a voluntary search and rescue operation?  Did he thank them for saving his life?? And isn't part of skiing out of bounds that it is done so at your own risk?
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Unbelievable... they screw up on their own, and now he will go and sue SAR for not being fast or good enough? I'm sorry to say this, but with idiots like this, I would cancel SAR completely, and let them die... or come out on their own.
These guys go out and risc their own lives to save stupid people who go out without any knowledge, who go out when there's avalanche warnings everywhere (2 or 3 years ago 2 SAR volunteers died here because of avalanche, when they were trying to rescue group of idiots who went climbing in heavy snowfall with almost 2m of new snow in last few days), they fly helicopters in storms when chances for crash are bigger then chances for coming back alive. And instead of thank you for saving my life, they get lawsuit???!!! Unbelievable.... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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What a douche..
I hope all the hills in ca refuse to sell him a lift pass in the future..
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I think (from reading the posts) there may be a bit of a knee jerk reaction going on here. We don't know the real facts and have only a report of, what seems to me, to be the (a little) petulant reaction of one team and maybe another couple of teams in the same local area.
It has been my experience that a third party press report is never a good source of information when concerning either MRT’s or SAR opps.
Best wait a little and see.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I can only echo what everyone else has said - the guy's an idiot, and the SAR don't deserve to be treated like this. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wayne I was reading thread about this in Epicski, which gives more info then just this article above. To make it short it's something like this. They went out of boundaries of ski place, ski down about 1000 height meters where no normal "connection" back to city is, except climbing back up same way as they came. They got lost, and they were without any proper equipment, except normal skiing clothes. They checked out of hotel on morning, but left their car in hotels garage, so it was impossible to even identify them as missing. They put SOS sign in snow, but moved away... few times. SAR was notified about spotting SOS sign only after someone spotted SOS sign for 2nd time (if I remember right, 9 days after they left). And after that, SAR went out and find him, while his wife died already.
I'm sure someone else was also reading thread on Epic, so welcome to chimp in and correct my mistakes 
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primoz,
I could put lots more here, but not going to. Some of us don't just read about SAR opps or comment on forums about em.
Like I said, best wait to see what the fact are.
Me - top left
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You know it makes sense.
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primoz, A pretty good summary from all the coverage I've seen which dates back to Feb. I think there may have been a process screw up around the fact that RCMP did not instruct SAR to start a search but there as been much speculation about why the vics didn't stay by the SOS sign, retrace their route or manage to locate a wood burning backcountry hut that they looped right round. SAR response is not behaving petulantly but I suspect a response to legal advice they have received. The Canadian outdoor community is understandably concerned about the impact the case may have on open boundary policies for backcountry access if the lawsuit is successful as well as undermining all the great work SAR volunteers do.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wayne, is that your tarmac gang?
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Poster: A snowHead
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I have a vague memory of a story about people being stuck in the BC and an SOS being ignored multiple times... guessing this is it - at the time, it definitely sounded like SAR dropped the ball. I had no idea they were liable for trying to help people though.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Darwin always wins the vicious circle of stupid.
This is how I see it
1. People start to venture beyond what is safe
2. Some unfortunate people die.
3. In response SAR teams setup and people are saved
4. Some people rescued who would have died
5. People with a false sense of security then venture beyond capabilities and what is safe
6. Some more people die
7. 'Stupid' has a temporary victory and laws and restrictions are put in place deeming everything illegal / not safe / or whatever it takes to stop the fun.
8. People venture out anyway
9. some people die that could have been rescued
Rinse and repeat, wash hands on pants!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I can't see that anyone would ignore an SOS signal intentionally though?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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primoz's summary of the Epic discussion would imply a fair degree of stupidity on the part of the victim. An earlier report linked to from the OP's link does though seem to indicate a dropped ball, that could have contributed to the failure.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/02/25/bc-kicking-resort-ski-resort-rescue.html
The action following the first SOS report sounds as if it was fair. ISTM that there was a problem with the reaction following the second report, and the division of reponsibilities between SAR and RCMP doesn't look helpful; procedures should probably be reviewed in the light of that. I'm only going on what's written here, though, so it's highly likely that this is not the whole story
Sueing a voluntary organisation does seem a ridiculous outcome, but if RCMP have a case to answer it would be difficult to go for them and not involve SAR.
Difficult one.
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| skisimon wrote: |
| dread to think how lawyers who make a career out of suing the NHS are able to sleep at night. |
Or indeed the people who instruct those lawyers to act for them in suing the NHS.
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Sueing the NHS is a bit different - I'm sure that there are quite justified actions around situations where patients ended up in a worse condition than the problem they were presnting for due to medical negligence or malpractice and I'm not talking about the frivolous "my stiches left a scar" type issues.
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fatbob, yes, negligence/malpractice suits are a slightly different kettle of fish.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob, agreed. The idea that a volunteer organisation has a duty to start a search seems ridiculous.
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A few years ago a young person in my care took ill a long way from road access. Glencoe Mountain Rescue Team came out and got her back to safety. Despite it being a genuine situation, I felt really bad, and as a result we undertook some fundraising - making about £2000 for the MRT. They were grateful for this and said that a lot of people that they rescue don't even say "thank you". 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Elizabeth B, in that case, they should assume that they didn't wish to be rescued and put them back where they found them.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 17-06-09 21:05; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wayne, Billinge lump looks a bit rugged in your pics 
What's the protocol for initiating mountain rescue in the UK - I know through 999 but strictly do the police have to call you out? What would happpen if someone called MRT direct?
The only time I've tried to call was when I got benighted in Scotland unplanned in a blizzard (walking not skiing and entirely my weather forecasting error) and didn't want my car left in Nevis Range car park to trigger an unecessary search. I had bivvy gear plus food so it was no real drama to me. Needless to say I couldn't get a signal anyway so I learnt then not to rely on technology
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 17-06-09 20:55; edited 1 time in total
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Protocol in the UK is to phone 999 and ask for the Police. They will then assess and call MR out if they deem it necessary. The time I needed them, I had the Fort William police station number, so called them rather than 999, and asked them to advise me on my best course of action. They spoke to the MRT leader and called me back telling me that the team were on their way,
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You know it makes sense.
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Wayne, Is that an illegal use of the Red Cross I see on your jacket??? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The "douchenozzle" has now made it our business by sueing Her Maj http://www.cbc.ca/bc/news/bc090508-blackburn-lawsuit.pdf
There's a lady lawyer involved here who might not find herself most popular ambulance chaser in Whistler!
I'd add that I've been at the top of the lift in question and its pretty obvious to any moderately experienced skier which way is inbounds or out of bounds even in poor visibility (there is a cat track down for those that are up there by mistake) so I'd have to say they got themselves in trouble by deliberate action. I note the suit does not attempt to deny this but rather spuriously IMO attempts to claim that the Resort ought to have exactly defined what problems people face in going into each out of bounds area.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Mr Blackburn strikes me a a bit of an Ar**hole.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Sarge McSarge wrote: |
| Wayne, Is that an illegal use of the Red Cross I see on your jacket??? |
Why would you think it might be illegal?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The basics are that most teams have a contract with the local plod. You give us loads of gear from your MRT budget and we’ll go and help people if you want.
Ok it’s a little more than that but that’s the reality of the vast majority of teams in the UK. Contract with the plod. You call them, they call the team.
| fatbob wrote: |
| Wayne, Billinge lump looks a bit rugged in your pics |
I was up round Billinge yesterday - trying to teach Mrs Wayne to drive our new (automatic) car. OMG she thinks it's the same as a bumper car at the fair.
| fatbob wrote: |
| What's the protocol for initiating mountain rescue in the UK - I know through 999 but strictly do the police have to call you out? What would happen if someone called MRT direct? |
No. There is no legal obligation on anyone to rescue anyone as such (unlike France). But this all comes down to what you define as a "rescue". Say you’re trapped inside a burning car on the M6 and the fire service is there. I think there may be some sort of obligation there, but honestly don't know, maybe a lawyer on here can answer that ??. When your up in the mountains of the UK (not a clue about other countries) the only "legal obligation to rescue is if you're in a powered flight (or you "were" in a powered flight), then I think the RAF have to come and get you. MRT's don't "have" to go and help, but they normally will. You should think about most MRT's as a drinking club that also does rescues.  , some clubs watch trains, some play football, we walk up hills, no probs.
You have sod all chance of getting hold of most team leader's direct phone number, so the only way to call out a team is via the cops.
For us, basically you call the cops and they make a decision or whether to contact the team leader. The leader then allocates people if they want to. Sounds quite harsh I know but ....... A lot of times the people can sort them self out, but they have had it bashed into their heads all their life that if something goes wrong someone else will help em. Up a hill, sort your self out 1st and only then, if you really can't, they try and ask for help, as most of the time speed is what is needed.
Regardless of what you read in the press (and in internet forums) the vast majority of people that go up mountains are OK and they can look after themselves and their mates. OK there are some dicks around but most people just get on with stuff no probs. There are millions of mountain rescues every weekend in the UK performed by the people themselves ( but you never read about them ). The problems come when you need special gear to sort some thing out, neck injuries, cliff extractions, etc, or just more people to help like searches or stretcher lug-off, then you need the local MRT.
Say the local cops get a call like this " Help, my mate has hurt his foot and he can't walk. All 4 of us were just walking along and he fell over". In this sort of case it's almost certain you'll get told to just pick him up and carry him. But then again it depends on what type of injury it is. Some "hurt feet" can be more serious than others, so hey. Like I said it's up to the leader to do the hard stuff, make the decision.
| Sarge McSarge wrote: |
| Wayne, Is that an illegal use of the Red Cross I see on your jacket??? |
Not a clue. They give us stuff to wear and we put it on. Those jackets are really good. You can walk in the rain in em, give out parking tickets, tarmac a drive, etc.
| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| The time I needed them, I had the Fort William police station number, so called them rather than 999, and asked them to advise me on my best course of action. They spoke to the MRT leader and called me back telling me that the team were on their way, |
Team leader ? Now it's Terry and before that was Donald. I have worked with Donald for the last 15 years (not in the local team up there , just done Nevis with him a few thousand times for normal work). But he is extremely ugly and as you can see I am much more photogenic. So if I'm not around don't call, as any post event photos won't be as good.
Oh yeah, insurance and getting sued and all that. Who knows ?, not me. I know we have insruance but I will try and help someone and after that if they want to sue me, pahh, who knows what happens. Maybe a lawyer on here will give you better info
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In case anyone cares, the legal protection of the red cross and other IRC symbols is unclear. The Geneva Conventions appear to restrict their use to military medical and IRC. This is obviously widely ignored and enforcement could give rise to interesting (a relative term) trade mark issues. It's probably true to say that in the UK, the red cross should not be used by anyone not authorised by the IRC or performing a military medical role (but with some possible exceptions for holders of trade marks including the red cross which predate the Geneva Conventions).
I note that a green cross is used by some pharmacies and on some medical kit. I don't know whether this has some particular significance or is used as an alternative to the red cross.
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Can I use the red cross if I'm on a crusade (claiming numerous historical precedents)? Or does the Pope have to define it as a crusade first?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowball, not a problem, as the crusader cross is differently proportioned to the red cross cross. When are you off?
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FAQ
never noticed what a truley handsom chap I am 
