With all the diverging skis stuff happening in the skiing of these amazing skiers? Why are they doing it? Hint; it's not a mistake, there's a reason for it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Diverging means the tips are separated more than the tails, with the skis in a reverse snowplow position
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Because the inner ski.has to have a tighter arc as it rounds the gate? (Slightly mischievous)
It's because the weight is too far to the inside of the turn. I don't know why this would be advantageous (at least in normal skiing) though. Helps to get bigger edge angles and thus a tighter (carved) turn radius maybe?
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Looking at where this is happening in the turn, I'd say this was a result of them 'scarving' the top of the turn, they are moving their centre of mass inside the turn, and extending their outside leg to deal with the pressure that's about to happen as they reach the apex of the turn, but they can't engage their edges fully because then they will be off their line, so at that point they are basically skidding, getting ready to engage later. I'm not sure the divergence is something anyone outside of GS racing would want in their skiing.
I have no idea why it's a good thing but as I often do it (due to crap technique rather than conscious effort, before anyone else says anything) I'm interested to find out
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They're incorporating a slight skating action in their turns, to physically push off from and add to their velocity in the turn.
Also this allows the outside ski to unweight faster and initiate the next turn even before the inside ski (which is still steering) has finished with the current turn.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Allows the inside ski to take a tighter radius curve at the start of the turn, while still carving cleanly.
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I don't think anyone can say for sure unless you know the previous and next turn.
Because the same turn has all the skiers doing it probably means the fastest way through the turn(s) is not to carve or skid turn but 'step' inside and carry the speed and make the next turn
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To get round the corner, the inside ski has to carve a tighter turn. To do this it either needs a higher edge angle (physically difficult and probably impossible at race speeds) or it's going to need some help to get round. Assuming you want to avoid a bit of rotation and associated skid, the only other practical way is to give the inside ski a bit of a head start by starting it part way round the turn already - ie divergence.
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Because they haven't read veeight's guide to the perfect parallel turn?
Or maybe because speed matters to them more than physics and theory and they have a certain athletic aptitude towards spending their time optimising the former (your brain doesn't have to know how something works for your body to be able to do it).
Hard to believe Kostelic is going to get a clean carve on that outside ski from there and still skim the gate but I bet he did it.
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A wild guess of mine is that the skiers are having to apply nearly all their pressure to the outside ski to keep themselves attached to the snow (evident most of them have very little or no pressure on their inside ski -"not bent") to get their inside ski to carve this very tight line they have two choices - pressure it to "bend it" causing a loss in outside ski pressure hmm! "or" let it come along for the ride. The reason the skis look to be diverging is because the inner foot is a fair way ahead of the outer foot "tip lead" and the shin has been allowed to move forward, as the shin moves forward due to articulation of the knee its angle lessens in relation to his other shin and with the ski being unweighted the whole shin/ boot / ski angle changes in relation to the other ski causing divergence .
As I say "wild guess!"
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i used to do this a lot
Fell over a lot too
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Maybe it's a way of exiting the turn (the bit after the apex) - it reduces the load on the outside ski (and therefore the turning radius), and lifts the skier (reducing the proportion of force going perpendicular to the turn)?
From the ski angles it looks like they intend to pass the gate committed to the inside edge of the inside ski?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
It's basically conceptually like a skate. Outside ski driving, inside ski steering, both carving cleanly.
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I've been reading this thread with interest. Some of which has gone over my head, but slikedges, last posting got me thinking about a vid I saw recently on Youtube - the USA Ski Team
If I am understanding this correctly, I think this is a variation of what TJ Manning is talking about. Essentially putting a lot of weight/pressure on the uphill ski (to provide a very solid platform and drive for the turn) and using the other ski to do all of the steering
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It's all about the next turn.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Sleipnir wrote:
If I am understanding this correctly, I think this is a variation of what TJ Manning is talking about. Essentially putting a lot of weight/pressure on the uphill ski (to provide a very solid platform and drive for the turn) and using the other ski to do all of the steering
I didn't think he said anything about using the inner ski to do the steering. Sounded to me that he was talking about getting a really early and strong platform by ensuring he was on his outside ski from the moment the turn started. Probably 'inner leg extension' if you wanted to give it a label.
If I am understanding this correctly, I think this is a variation of what TJ Manning is talking about. Essentially putting a lot of weight/pressure on the uphill ski (to provide a very solid platform and drive for the turn) and using the other ski to do all of the steering
I didn't think he said anything about using the inner ski to do the steering. Sounded to me that he was talking about getting a really early and strong platform by ensuring he was on his outside ski from the moment the turn started. Probably 'inner leg extension' if you wanted to give it a label.
Cheers rob@rar no he didn't say anything about the inner ski steering, but talking what TJ Baldwin said and combining it with silkedges thoughts, by having a really strong platform on the other ski, wouldn't this allow a little more 'freedom' with the inner ski so that this could be used for steering, as and if required?
Happy to be corrected I hasten to add
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Sleipnir wrote:
Cheers rob@rar no he didn't say anything about the inner ski steering, but talking what TJ Baldwin said and combining it with silkedges thoughts, by having a really strong platform on the other ski, wouldn't this allow a little more 'freedom' with the inner ski so that this could be used for steering, as and if required?
Happy to be corrected I hasten to add
I have no idea how that would work (strong outside ski, but inside ski for steering) but it does seem as if racers will sometimes use tactics to get the fastest line through the gates that don't have much application to recreational skiing, so this might be one of those occasions.
It's the same as skating from the inside edge of the skating ski to the outside edge of the gliding ski. At slower speeds the driving ski creates acceleration and the gliding ski can steer.
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If you look at Bode you can see that the inside ski tip is not even on the snow yet. It does look very much like a skating move.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Yes, a skating move, in respect to the divergence. But he won't be pushing off the outside ski, to the inside ski, as you do in a skate move.
Some here have nailed the carving a smaller radius turn with the inside ski reason. There's one more, that I don't think anyone has touched on yet. Think about how the amount of ski separation changes from transition - to apex - to transition. What's the best way, from a racing perspective, to make those changes happen.
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FastMan, not sure what you're driving at. It's a kind of banking, in that there's more support from the inside ski than normal, with greater inclination than would otherwise be supported. I think it also helps get onto the new outside ski early, almost like an early step initiation without the step?
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FastMan,
Quote:
carving a smaller radius turn with the inside ski
carving as in no skid ?
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FastMan,
Quote:
Some here have nailed the carving a smaller radius turn with the inside ski reason. There's one more, that I don't think anyone has touched on yet.
I know its not a traditional skate, but a skate can be used to get a higher line under the pole for the next turn at the start of a run , is this also what they are trying to achieve but at speed, a higher line for the new outside ski!?
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FastMan, the skiers in the pictures above have all in there own minds already gone round the gate and are preparing for the next one, by adding varying degrees of divergence of the turn it enables them to get onto the next outside edge quicker and in a smoother more stable way.
combination of speed into the next turn and added stability
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slikedges,gatecrasher, I can see where you're going with the skate step idea, and using the divergence to get onto the new outside ski sooner and higher. That could be true if the divergence was held throughout the turn, but it's not. By the end of the turn divergence is gone, and sometimes we actually see convergence happening. Have a look at this montage, it might help fill in the blanks. It's from the same turn, with the divergence frame pulled out.
The divergence frame of Ted I included in my first post here was located between frames 4 and 5 of the above montage. I left it out of the montage for image clarity reasons. Here it is again for reference:
Frame 5 in the montage is the frame that immediately followed the above frame of Ted from my first post. Notice that in frame 5 much of the divergence that was present in the prior frame (above picture) is gone. By image 6 in the montage it's all gone. Prospering from any advantage that moving onto a diverging ski at the end of the turn might provide is not possible, because at the time of turn completion the skis are no longer diverging.
Now, compare the shin and edge angles of the inside and outside leg and ski in the above "A-Frame Divergence" picture of Ted. The outside ski is much higher on edge, and the outside shin more intensely tipped. The outside ski is obviously going to carve a sharper turn. If he did not diverge his inside ski at the start of the turn, that edge angle discrepancy would force him to steer his inside ski as he went around the turn, to keep it directional in harmony with his sharper carving outside ski. By diverging it, he's giving it a head start. By the end of the turn the outside ski has caught up.
Now, about the ski separation part of the equation. Look at the difference in space between Ted's skis in images 2 and 5 in the montage. When you tip to a high edge angle the skis have to be separated more, to allow room for the legs to tip without hitting each other and blocking further tipping, or dislodging the outside ski from the snow. Make sense? If not, do the pencil tipping demonstration. If you want to know about that, just ask.
So how is that extra separation created? You basically have two choices. You can manually drag the inside ski away from the outside ski by keeping the skis running parallel and flexing the inside leg. Or you can diverge the skis at the start of the turn and simply allow the skis to track/carve further apart on their own. Look again at the A-Frame Divergence shot of Ted above with that concept in mind. See it? The divergence is leading his skis into the wider separation he'll need at the apex, then the sharper turning outside ski will eliminate the divergence and bring the skis back together by the end of the turn.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
david@mediacopy wrote:
FastMan,
Quote:
carving a smaller radius turn with the inside ski
carving as in no skid ?
Yes, David. If he can do something that allows the inside ski to carve rather than steer, it will be faster. Steering always involves some degree of skid angle, which creates drag and is slow. Divergence allows inside ski carving to happen, even though it's on a lower edge angle. It allows simultaneously provides the extra separation needed at apex. 2 birds with one stone.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 18-02-11 19:00; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
livetoski, did my above posts add any new elements of consideration to your evaluation of what's happening with the divergence tactic?
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Sleipnir, great video, I hadn't seen it. It's basically the ILE transition technique I've been talking about for a number of years now. The Harbies are going to have kittens when they see that one!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
FastMan,
Quote:
did my above posts add any new elements of consideration to your evaluation of what's happening with the divergence tactic?
yes and it also helps me to explain why I get inner knee soreness as I keep hitting/rubbing the inside of my knee on my uphill/inner ski boot!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
FastMan wrote:
david@mediacopy wrote:
FastMan,
Quote:
carving a smaller radius turn with the inside ski
carving as in no skid ?
Yes, David. If he can do something that allows the inside ski to carve rather than steer, it will be faster. Steering always involves some degree of skid angle, which creates drag and is slow. Divergence allows inside ski carving to happen, even though it's on a lower edge angle. It allows simultaneously provides the extra separation needed at apex. 2 birds with one stone.
That would be the ideal, but is that really happening ? I wonder, as in the montage, frame 5, the o\s is clearly bent while the i\s ski isn't, especially when compared to the next frame where the i\s does appear to be 'hooked up'. In addition Frame 3 appears to show some 'steering' but it's hard to tell with the next frame due to the gate. For sure both ski's end up 'carving' but later in the turn.
Body Miller's frame is perhaps the give away in that the i/s ski is off the ground. The Kjetil Jansrud photo looks as if he maybe 'carving' the i/s ski before the gate but I wonder if that's more of a recovery move than intention.
With all the talk of 'Early Edge' it's interesting that the last frame of the Ligety sequence show the 'new' outside ski off the ground as he's drawn to an aft balance position.
That would be the ideal, but is that really happening ? I wonder, as in the montage, frame 5, the o\s is clearly bent while the i\s ski isn't, especially when compared to the next frame where the i\s does appear to be 'hooked up'.
Good observation. With the general theme of outside ski dominance, what you're seeing in frame 5 is what we'd expect. All the more reason that the inside ski will not be able to carve as sharp a turn as the outside ski. Divergence thus lessens the amount it must be steered to compensate.
Compensation, when needed, comes in various forms. Sometimes it's done by maintaining inside leg rotational tension, and letting that auto steer the inside ski as needed. At other times the ski is allowed lose contact with the snow and is micro adjusted to remain in (or slightly ahead of) directional harmony with the turn shape dictating outside ski. Divergence simply reduces the amount of compensating that needs to be doen.
Quote:
In addition Frame 3 appears to show some 'steering' but it's hard to tell with the next frame due to the gate. For sure both ski's end up 'carving' but later in the turn.
Curious, as to what you're seeing there that's suggesting steering to you.
Quote:
Body Miller's frame is perhaps the give away in that the i/s ski is off the ground.
In creating the divergence of the inside ski some guys will lift the ski right up off the snow to redirect it, where others will keep it closer to the snow. You'll also often see the old outside foot lift off the snow during arc to arc transitions, as the racer actively brings it forward from its trailing position in the prior turn, even when no divergence is to be used.
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Ah, one other thing I want to add. I'm pretty sure this divergence thing is not something these guys are doing consciously. More than likely it's just an auto pilot move performed unconsciously out of an intuitive sense of need by highly skilled athletes. If you were to ask them many would probably not even be aware they're doing it.
Ah, one other thing I want to add. I'm pretty sure this divergence thing is not something these guys are doing consciously. More than likely it's just an auto pilot move performed unconsciously out of an intuitive sense of need by highly skilled athletes. If you were to ask them many would probably not even be aware they're doing it.
Glad you added this, I was going to spend all my next session practicing it! Hmm...!? but then again maybe i'll leave it to the experts!! Great post!
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FastMan wrote:
Quote:
In addition Frame 3 appears to show some 'steering' but it's hard to tell with the next frame due to the gate. For sure both ski's end up 'carving' but later in the turn.
Curious, as to what you're seeing there that's suggesting steering to you.
The i\s appears to be flatter than his o\s ski and appears to be slightly diverging. It seems unlikely that the ski is going to track through to it position in the later frames without some help (and skid). But isn't that what you are saying ?
I'm not sure that we are in disagreement. My comment about the skid\carve related to 'placement' of the ski to point it towards the shorter track required. That must be a steered \ lifted movement - unless the racer is tilting and\or bending the i\s more to get the i\s ski to 'carve' tighter ?
After all it is free
After all it is free
FastMan wrote:
Ah, one other thing I want to add. I'm pretty sure this divergence thing is not something these guys are doing consciously. More than likely it's just an auto pilot move performed unconsciously out of an intuitive sense of need by highly skilled athletes. If you were to ask them many would probably not even be aware they're doing it.
if its something that happens in a few 10ths of a second then its probably that the outside ski has done a job and there is a few 10'ths where the inside ski has 99% control
lazy skier
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david@mediacopy wrote:
FastMan wrote:
Quote:
In addition Frame 3 appears to show some 'steering' but it's hard to tell with the next frame due to the gate. For sure both ski's end up 'carving' but later in the turn.
Curious, as to what you're seeing there that's suggesting steering to you.
The i\s appears to be flatter than his o\s ski and appears to be slightly diverging. It seems unlikely that the ski is going to track through to it position in the later frames without some help (and skid). But isn't that what you are saying ?
I'm not sure that we are in disagreement. My comment about the skid\carve related to 'placement' of the ski to point it towards the shorter track required. That must be a steered \ lifted movement - unless the racer is tilting and\or bending the i\s more to get the i\s ski to 'carve' tighter ?
OK, thanks for the explanation. You're right, we're definitely on the same page. Good eye on your part, seeing the differing edge angles in frame 3, and analyzing the effect. Here's what a track looks like when that happens, but the inside ski is not diverted.
See the steer in the downhill track after the transition?
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FastMan wrote:
Sleipnir, great video, I hadn't seen it. It's basically the ILE transition technique I've been talking about for a number of years now. The Harbies are going to have kittens when they see that one!
FastMan glad that you liked the video - there's such a vast number on the net. It's just the case of finding those that are useful
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