I lean back too often

A snowHead

Just back from Les Arcs and it was pointed out to me that I still have the bad habit of leaning back when the going gets tougher e.g. if visibility is bad.

Whilst I don't doubt I have loads of bad habits rolling eyes

any good tips/drills to get me out of this particular one?

A snowHead

Just get your friends to shout "Backseat Bertha" at you. Works for me Embarassed

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

jonm, Buy boots that fit, if you lean back, your feet will hurt.

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Shoulders and nose infront of the toes.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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After all it is free

Keep your hands out in front of you as you ski, you should be able to see them at all times.

jonm, try snowboarding. If you lean back too much, you'll fall over.

Perhaps more usefully, take up rollerblading. If you lean back too much you'll fall over, onto the pavement. This will cure you.

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jonm, I too have this habit.

Keeping my hands/shoulders forward helped me a bit - but I often still find myself sitting back

The best bit of advice/imagery I've been given is to try and keep my hips forward ... or as someone on this forum once described it: Fornicate don't deficate Very Happy

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Getting in the backseat starts at the ankles. I wouldn't worry about what your upper body is doing but focus on feeling pressure from your shins on the front of your boots. Not too much (you don't want to be leaning against the boots) but feeling some pressure at your shins will help with staying centered on your skis.

You know it makes sense.

i agree with rob@rar, as in lean into the front of the boot but i dont think you can lean in too much..it is important to concentrate on what position your upper body is in...if you took a line down from your shoulders they should be way out over your toes..this will naturally push your shins into your boots and keep you forward

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

one thing which helped me a lot was an instructor telling me to stand on my feet - particularly on the balls of my feet. Years of being told to "get forward" hadn't really done the trick.

A snowHead

jonm, I was given this advice by an excellent instructor a few years back.

Try walking around the house with your knees bent and your weight on your heels. It will feel virtually impossible (but this is how you're trying to ski). Then, without stopping, stand up with your weight on the balls of your feet and continue walking. Firstly this will make you more aware of where your weight is, and secondly it will help you to feel how to get back forward again after being back. I know this sounds completely mad - but it will work. 2 circuits of the sitting room per day should do it, but if your knees hurt don't lean so far back. You can also experiment with where your shoulders are. I've just done it once up and down the flat and my thighs and back hurt!!

It also helps to discipline yourself to be more aware of what you're feeling with your body. this just means that as you go about your daily life you "tune in" from time to time to what it feels like to do whatever it is. this means sitting down, standing up, turning corners, lifting a pint, stairs, all sorts. At first you do have to think about it, and after a bit you can just tune in and out without really bothering. this will make you more body aware. Body awarenes is learned - not natural, and the more aware you are the quicker you learn any physical activity/skill.

A snowHead

I suspect I'll be blown away by the experts on this, but two things are helping me combat being in the back seat are, poles forward (we've done that to death - but is totally correct) and.. ability to apply pressure with your 'toes', or at least the front part of your foot - not your toes really. So, knees over front bindings at all times. Apply pressure with the front part of you foot, NEVER allow youself to rock onto your heal. Mmm Easy.....
This seems to become most important, when you start to carve, you need to use the front part of your foot to apply pressure to 'bend the ski'.

Sorry, I'll get my coat, but it's working for me.....

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

A lot of this advice seems to sway towards being too far forwards? I understand if the suggestions are trying to remedy it by going to the other extreme and let things settle down in the centre, but "don't feel your heel", "knees over front bindings", "shoulders in front of toes" - I like to try and get people to feel the whole footbed for what it's worth, and look for shoulders/knees/toes stacked up, but curing people's fore/aft balance over the internet is hard since you can't tell what the cause is - treating a symptom isn't going to cure the problem.

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The suggestions from comprex are good, and I agree strongly with the approach of rob@rar. If it starts going wrong when the going gets tough, you need to train yourself to do the right thing, rather than what currently feels right. When conditions are tough, it often helps to think about getting a bit lower on the skis, so your centre of mass is lower down and you're generally more stable. The danger of course is that you do that by flexing just at the knees, and so sit back. To get over that, think instead of trying to kneel on your skis rather than sit down on them - this will keep you more centred and give you more closed ankles. Thinking about closing the ankles is a good move, and checking that by feeling the shins on the fronts of the boots at all times - particularly in the second half of the turn, when the tendency is to drop back.

DaveC, OK, fair concern, but how many intermediate skiers do you see that are too far forward vs those that are too far back? And now exclude any that first learned over 25 years ago? Any left? I've spent a long time being told to get further forward, at the same time as being told to feel my weight through the middle of my feet - but doing that would always throw me way back. I think the definition of too far forward also varies quite a bit depending on what you are skiing. If I ski the way that's appropriate for my race skis on my big mountain skis in the deep snow then my tips dive normally by about the second turn - and I have many headplants to testify to that. Then keep skiing appropriately to the softer stuff on the SL skis on a heard piste and the tips don't engage, the skis don't bend and it's skid city.

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I'm a bit unsure here, because I hear a lot of "front of the boot", "driving the tips" - this kind of stuff is a bit counter intuitive to what I've been working with in the CSIA methodology, and I can't say I have trouble skiing ice without ramming my shins in to the tounges of my boot (it did take a fair bit of practice to not want to do, though, and I still do get caught forward occasionally). The way I understand it, though, is that pressuring the tounge is a bad thing.

I agree that for intermediate skiers you often see people back, but for higher levels I see a lot of people right up on the front of their boots - the analogy I like is that they're trying to use the tounge as a gas pedal. Before I started actively working on my skiing through instructing I thought the way to ski was right on the front of the boot, ankles pretty much at the end of their movement range - just because all you hear people say is "get more forward".

To me, your powder vs groomer thought is actually something a little different - I stay centred on both, but in powder I'm actively pushing my feet forward, or BoS in front of CoM, to balance the resistance.

Anyway, anyone's thoughts appriciated if you agree or disagree at all!

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abj, No, No, No, No, Nooooooooooooooooooo

After all it is free

abj,

I found it was happening naturally so thought I would see where it went......and where is goes is
that it engages the ski into the turn earlier..or much higher up the arc.
So instead of pickng up the edge set say, half way through and towards the bottom of the turn...you take the edges into the turn...
You just roll or drive the hip of the proposed weighted/dominant ski and it picks up the turn.... and then complete the arc...you then roll the other hip..and so-on..

You will not see this so much as feel it... and it will transfer your
weight on that ski to the front, middle and rear...through the duration of the turn..

Warren Smith talks about this and refers to the figure of 8 motion, so the phrase is his...and this description simplifies it. I might have let it go had I not found that this extra oomph into the turn works very well
for difficult snow... IME..

SMALLZOOKEEPER, sorry!

JT, okay ... I think this might be a little advanced for me, but I'm off skiing in 10-days time so I'll see if this makes sense on the snow.

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abj,

maybe someone who has been on a WS course can elaborate...or tell you which DVD it is on...

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jonm, slow down. Carve all the way through the turn with max edge angle, soften your legs to absorb speed, and you'll be in greater control whatever the conditions. And a controlled skier is a happy skier, is a relaxed skier. Toofy Grin

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Some of it is in the head though.

We normally walk "upright" on level surface. And when we walk downhill, we still stay "upright" and use our heels to slow our body down. But that's NOT how we should ski. Because with respect to the skis, which is tilting downhill like the slope, we're SITTING BACK! And ended up with all our pressure in the back of the ski instead of all of the ski.

By "forward", we're really trying to be verticle with regard to the skis, not to the horizone . When we "think" of pressuring the tip of the skis, we're really only managing to pressure the entire ski normally. Only because we can't pressure the whole ski while staying "upright", so we must think "forward"! Wink

One of the mental hints I found useful, is to think of the slope as a tilted table. Think about a stick glued perpendicular to that table. When the table is tilted, the stick start to lean DOWN. And the more you tilt the table (the steeper the slope), the more "forward" that stick "leans".

Just like that stick, we the skier need to stay perpendicular to the slope. That translate into leaning forward to stay perpendicular to the slope. The more the slope tilts (steepens), the more we need to lean forward. As one speed through uneven terrain, it's useful to force oneself forward whenever one sees the ground dropping away!

andyph, Yes totally agree..... 'Carve all the way through the turn' - not many do that though, most skid the tails through the turns in all but the easiest situations, until you get out of that [habit] most of the advice here is useless, IMHO.

You know it makes sense.

abc, thanks - that's the explanation of "forward" I was looking for. Just not a term I've heard from CSIA qual'ed people but kicks around a lot on the net.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Lots for me to work on at the EoSB... thanks all.

A snowHead

Help!!

I lean back too often

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