 Poster: A snowHead
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This is an interesting article which makes the point that if Natasha Richardson's accident had happend at a US ski resort she might not have died.
Basically it makes the point that for all it's faults the private US medical system is better for patients in this situation than the government run Canadian one.
Here is the link to the article:
CANADACARE MAY HAVE KILLED NATASHA
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Whilst I don't have the medical expertise to back my theory up, I fear that it was a crack on the noggin which killed Ms. Richardson....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's a crap article. More totally pointless pseudo-journalism from the NY Post.
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| nycskier wrote: |
This is an interesting article which makes the point that if Natasha Richardson's accident had happend at a US ski resort she might not have died.
Basically it makes the point that for all it's faults the private US medical system is better for patients in this situation than the government run Canadian one.
Here is the link to the article:
CANADACARE MAY HAVE KILLED NATASHA |
It seems like simple logic that private health care is better than government health care, for people who can afford it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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hyweljenkins, I don't think it's crap at all (except, perhaps, in the generalised implication that Canadian healthcare is worse than US healthcare). What it's investigating, or speculating about it, is the time, from when she started to present with a headache, it took to do something useful. This is the nub of the question, imv, borne out by several conversations I've had with medics about it: her initial refusal of medical care accounted for only part of the delay. She was still conscious when seen at a hospital and her death might have been prevented if the hospital either had the resources to diagnose and institute temporizing therapy, or air transport had taken her quickly to Montreal.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| hyweljenkins wrote: |
| It's a crap article. More totally pointless pseudo-journalism from the NY Post. |
Actually it is a syndicated column originally written for The Chicago Tribune. So it is really not more "pseudo-journalism from the NY Post".
Besides it make a valid point. Most US hospitals near ski sresorts have CT scanners and most hospitals near ski resorts in the US have access to helicopter transport.
Love it or hate it but the tort system in the US makes those hospitals liable for accidents so hospitals have to spend more to make sure people don't die from bumps on the head suffered on a green trail.
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nycskier, You guys ROCK !! 
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| Skola wrote: |
| It seems like simple logic that private health care is better than government health care, for people who can afford it. |
It does, but I think it may be false logic. Certainly, in the UK I hope that the ambulance takes me to A&E at an NHS hospital than to a private hospital.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I didn't find the US system particularly easy to navigate on my recent accident. Although I was presenting the day after - I tried 3 "walk-in" trauma centres on the basis that these would be geared to a non life threatening condition & basic X rays, was redirected about 20 miles and eventually ended up in an ER anyway.
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Skola, not true actually, for acute life threatening conditions you're better off with the NHS. Some private hospitals also have poor cover at night. What private is good for is getting appointments / operations without having to go on a list, and getting access to the latest treatments that the NHS may have decided iare not cost effective, eg some cancer treatments.
Also I suspect the food, and cleanliness will be better in a private hospital. (Certainly I don't personally know anyone who's contracted MRSA whilst in a private hospital).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I suspect that if Natasha Richardson had been black or hispanic, and had sustained a similar blow whilst in the park in middle America, that the outcome would have been the same, because the quality of care would have been little different to what she received in Canada.
The private hospitals near the slopes (which serve a wealthy elite population) are not only legally but financially aware, and they have very slick transport and clinical systems that are highly interventional (but perhaps not always evidence based), and relieve injured punters of large amounts of cash very effectively.
This is a rather uncomfortable thread though, and my sympathies extend to her whole family.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| hCertainly I don't personally know anyone who's contracted MRSA whilst in a private hospital |
My dad did.
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Martin Nicholas, is that true? I'm well aware of the problems of US residents lacking health insurance (or huge amounts of cash), but I thought that emergency care is given as needed.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
for acute life threatening conditions you're better off with the NHS
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private hospitals do sometimes ship their critically ill patients (e.g. post cardiac surgery) off to NHS hospitals which are better equipped to look after them. Presumably those patients then occupy beds which might otherwise have been occupied by someone on an NHS waiting list. I don't think many private hospitals in the UK are equipped to deal with serious trauma - certainly none of the ones round us are.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| richmond wrote: |
| Martin Nicholas, is that true? I'm well aware of the problems of US residents lacking health insurance (or huge amounts of cash), but I thought that emergency care is given as needed. |
Emergency care is given as needed in the States.
Most poor and indigent peoples in the US are eligible for government run Medicaid insurance that covers their expenses. (It's the people too rich for Medicaid, too young for Medicare and too poor for private health insurance that have a problem in the US)
No one gets turned away from emergency care in the US regardless of the ability to pay.
If you have no insurance you might get a bill you might not be able to afford but I guess being bankrupt might be better than being dead!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hmm. I broke a fibula in Fernie - and the local doc did not diagnose it - it was only after I got home (after trying again to ski, and walking around a lot) that my GP made a correct guess - and dispatched me to our local hospital, where I was well looked after. Just a single incident, of course. Made me wonder, though.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, I'd agree with that in Melbourne with 1 exception.... the Epworth hospital has great accident and emergency area.... and to the case in point has a neurologist and neurosurgery ward...
I have seen Veterans who will be covered under Veterans Affairs in a private hospital transferred from a major public hospital to Epworth with suspected heart attack because Epworth cardiologists are on- call but the public hospital refused to pay for similar service....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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reported on NPR this week, medical expenses are the number one cause of bankrupcy in the USA
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I object to this thread......let the family grieve please. This is conjecture not based on fact. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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GreyCat, personally I find the thread interesting and acceptable. Should any of the family come across the thread, the title should be sufficient for them not to open it should they not wish to. However, if you still feel strongly that this thread should go, you may PM one of the Piste Patrol to bring the thread to his/her attention.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The media are full of conjecture about what might have happened to people, or killed them, etc etc. TV and newspaper journalism is "in the face" of a bereaved family - this forum isn't. If they are trawling/searching the internet to find any discussion about Natasha Richardson's death, then presumably it would be because they want to read it.
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I have worked in the Canadian Healthcare system. The Canadian system is odd in that private practice is almost illegal. That - and its proximity to the US border - means that it is always used as the example of what bad stuff might happen if "socialised medicine" hit the US. This is not withstanding that the American Government already spends more per head on public funded medicine than most developed countries. And has poorer outcomes than many.
In this case, Natasha Richardson appears to have declined a helmet, a paramedic and the first ambulance that came for her (if reports are to be believed)
But - I think there are good points made here about helicopter medivac access and rapid triage/CT scanning in trauma care.
However the same might apply in lots of small US resorts, and I think the author is being rather hopeful about what might happen there, and I think he lets Miss Richardson off lightly as regards her own part in this.
In the UK you certainly would want to go to an NHS hospital with that kind of injury.
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nycskier, no, she fell over and knocked her noggin while skiing. I think the word is "accident"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
However the same might apply in lots of small US resorts,
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a very good point indeed!
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| richmond wrote: |
| Skola wrote: |
| It seems like simple logic that private health care is better than government health care, for people who can afford it. |
It does, but I think it may be false logic. Certainly, in the UK I hope that the ambulance takes me to A&E at an NHS hospital than to a private hospital. |
Why?
So you can sit bleeding on a trolley in the waiting area for 12 hours before some halfassed doctor and a rude nurse who haven't slept for 2 days come out, stick a Band-Aid on it and roll their eyes when you ask for a coupla aspirin? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| richmond wrote: |
| Skola wrote: |
| It seems like simple logic that private health care is better than government health care, for people who can afford it. |
It does, but I think it may be false logic. Certainly, in the UK I hope that the ambulance takes me to A&E at an NHS hospital than to a private hospital. |
Good point 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| richmond wrote: |
| Skola wrote: |
| It seems like simple logic that private health care is better than government health care, for people who can afford it. |
It does, but I think it may be false logic. Certainly, in the UK I hope that the ambulance takes me to A&E at an NHS hospital than to a private hospital. |
Why?
So you can sit bleeding on a trolley in the waiting area for 12 hours before some halfassed doctor and a rude nurse who haven't slept for 2 days come out, stick a Band-Aid on it and roll their eyes when you ask for a coupla aspirin? |
No, so that I can have access, if necessary, to the necessary emergency expertise and kit, instead of a bloke who can do a good abortion or varicose vein job and a newly qualified doctor who's never seen anyone in cardiac arrest. If I need a routine minor operation, or need my tendonitis fixing (as I do), I'll go private (as I have).
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| But - I think there are good points made here about helicopter medivac access and rapid triage/CT scanning in trauma care. |
Right.
CT machine and brain surgeons would be very helpful at clinics where head injuries are likely, such as near ski resorts. That's a good point.
But to use that single data point to say the US system is better than Canadian one, the paper stretched a point beyond its validity. Not un-heard of, still just as dispicable.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| richmond wrote: |
| Skola wrote: |
| It seems like simple logic that private health care is better than government health care, for people who can afford it. |
It does, but I think it may be false logic. Certainly, in the UK I hope that the ambulance takes me to A&E at an NHS hospital than to a private hospital. |
Why?
So you can sit bleeding on a trolley in the waiting area for 12 hours before some halfassed doctor and a rude nurse who haven't slept for 2 days come out, stick a Band-Aid on it and roll their eyes when you ask for a coupla aspirin? |
If you are asking for a "coupla aspirin" then you shouldn't be there. But that's good, because no hospital, NHS or otherwise, deserves the likes of you.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Whitegold, care to name any UK private hospital that has an on-site trauma team and neurosurgical unit?
Nope - I thought not.
Muppet.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Though the emergency treatment in UK monopoly public hospitals often leaves a lot to be desired and it's by no means clear that a privatised system would not be better.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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slikedges, indeed. We often have the least experienced staff at the front-of-house, poor 24hrs radiology access etc etc and lots of small hospitals close to each other, which probably cannot sustain top-notch multi-trauma care.
A private system would certainly guarantee it was more expensive...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Whitegold wrote: |
Why?
So you can sit bleeding on a trolley in the waiting area for 12 hours before some halfassed doctor and a rude nurse who haven't slept for 2 days come out, stick a Band-Aid on it and roll their eyes when you ask for a coupla aspirin? |
When I badly broke/dislocated my ankle one evening, the A&E treatment in Scunthorpe was second to none. They were efficient and couldn't do enough for me. However given the severity all they could do was pull out the dislocation and backslab it prior to shipping me off to a ward to await surgery. The contrast between A&E and the ward was total. As I was nil-by-mouth (in case they could fit me in the surgery list) I was largely ignored. 24hrs later when hubby arrived I had not even been given the chance to wash my hands which were still coated with mud from where I'd fallen and it had been far too much effort to take me to the loo when I asked. Later I was told there was now no chance of surgery that day, and no, there was nothing to eat - it was too late, a cup of tea was all there was & I'd be starved again after that in case there was a space the next day for the op. I finally got the surgery 3 days after the accident & went home on Christmas Eve. Nightmare.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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stoatsbrother, possibly, but it might be worth paying for. Like boot-fitting 
edited on second thought!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As a mum of 4 boys, as well as a playgroup and Tumbletot leader, I have probably been to A&E well over a dozen times with kids with head injuries, some with glazed eyes/rolling eyes/vomiting etc. Every single one was checked over quickly then sent home with a, "If they fall asleep and you can't wake them up, bring them back in." No tests!
This was many years ago though. Is it different now?
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I can confirm that Grenoble has a first-class Neurosurgical Unit and Trauma centre. The treatment JulesB received was nothing short of excellent. He went to Briancon hospital first which has an MRI scanner before being transferred.
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I just want to point out that this article clearly states, 'where it happened in Canada, No'
ie it doesn't cover all of Canada. Canada doesn't have federal healthcare- it is provincial. Sweeping statements about the care she received or didn't receive in Quebec shouldn't be applied to all of Canada, and the article doesn't try to do that. Quebec is the only province not to have air ambulance services.
However I think Stoatsborthers comment about private practice being almost illegal is a countrywide practice.
Gryph
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
slikedges, indeed. We often have the least experienced staff at the front-of-house, poor 24hrs radiology access etc etc and lots of small hospitals close to each other, which probably cannot sustain top-notch multi-trauma care.
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This is a soreish point in this part of the world. Guidelines for clinical excellence seek to pool resources into larger A&E departments and hospitals because the evidence clearly shows that larger hospitals have better survival rates, because staff get more experience due to much higher patient throughout (amongst other factors).
However, the fact that you may (eventually) be taken to the best A&E department around is no good if your already dead when you get there, hence the need for local and in some cases small emergency departments and hospitals. It's a balance, prob a fairly difficult one.
The Belford hospital in Fort William is a case in point. It's A&E department is too small and has too few patients a year to meet UK requirements - such small units are considered contrary to best practice compared to larger units where staff see many more patients. In fact it should have been closed down to comply with centralisation of A&E facilities in major centres where more and more highly skilled staff are available.
It was rightly kept open because many of the patients it has saved, wouldn't have made it to a better equipped and bigger hospital. It's been said if you are unlucky enough to get shot, you want it to be in New York (best medical care for gunshoot wounds), but if your going to fall of a mountain anywhere, you want to be near Fort William! Yes it is a small hospital, but few if any have the experience of dealing with mountain trauma. I know this is going off the original subject a bit, but size isn't everything - a local facility is more important.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Winterhighland, my late grandmothers life was saved in her early 60's by a small Scottish hospital when she had a major heart attack while on holiday. Thanks to the generosity of a rich American who had been hospitalised ther himself, they had all the latest resuscitation and life support equipment on hand. She lived until she was 86.
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| maggi wrote: |
As a mum of 4 boys, as well as a playgroup and Tumbletot leader, I have probably been to A&E well over a dozen times with kids with head injuries, some with glazed eyes/rolling eyes/vomiting etc. Every single one was checked over quickly then sent home with a, "If they fall asleep and you can't wake them up, bring them back in." No tests!
This was many years ago though. Is it different now? |
Nope... its exactly the same now - except that by the time they see you you've been sitting for nearly 3 hours so they have I suppose been 'monitoring' you for longer before making the diagnosis!
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FAQ
