 Poster: A snowHead
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Will MK Snozone survive after Hemel opens?
A lot of people, me included, have never been happy about the way it's run and I've even driven another hour up the motorway to use Tamworth instead.
I know the people behind Hemel are passionate about the slope and they seem to have learned from the mistakes of the other real snow centres, and I feel this coupled with its geographical location will make it a success..
I just wonder whether MK will be financially viable with a drastically reduced number of users.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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what evidence is there that there will be a drastic decrease in the number of users?
They will no doubt lose some, but given the current popularity I can't see it having difficulties.
We will continue to go as is only 30 mins away
What if the Hemel place is run along similar lines - or worse? I agree they ran it well previously, but can they sustain that level of commitment with a larger operation?
We're not yet at the stage where we are swamped with snowdomes, so enough room in the market for all IMV
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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MK locals and those from North will hardly want to brave the nightmare that is the M1 past Luton to get to Hemel but definitely there will be no reason for Southern softies to make the extra haul. Too bad that MK has never quite got the recipe right without overcluttering the slope, squeezing out skiing for kids sledging, dubious price gouging including the egregious locker and booking fees and inability to police the truly incompetent off the slope.
Still the business model depends on being the flagship for retail rather than being profitable in its own right - oh there's a recession on, anyone know how many empty units there are in Xscape yet?
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They should be fine, as more real snowsopes open it is quite likely that more people will get into dryslope and snowdome skiing which will counteract the number of people using hemel instead.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Still the business model depends on being the flagship for retail rather than being profitable in its own right
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That is a bit of an urban legend, the snowzone is quite profitable on its own... Not sure that there are many, if any, empty units, will have a peep sunday.
The imminent arrival of Hemel has given MK a kick up the backside and positive changes have and are continuing to happen... A new full time position to manage and oversee all aspects of the slope from instruction, rental and slope maintenance has made great improvements to slope and customer experience already. During busy periods an extra instructor is on as a floater to help out with group lessons... The lessons for little ones have been overhauled and are now much slicker with helpers and smaller class sizes.... on +2hour lessons the instructors are on hand 15 minutes prior to help with gear and answer questions... etc etc.
I am all for competition and i think it will strengthen both venues. I do think though that they will each have to battle for off season skiers who will typically be more discerning, demanding and knowledgeable. This summer will be quite telling... will Hemel have a smooth opening and mop up the enthusiasts?, or, will it not go so smoothly and people stay with what they know at MK....
I just hope that Hemel's opening doesnt go the way of Chill Factore. My understanding of their opening was that they were a bit overconfident and felt wouldnt make the same mistakes as the previous centres but they did seem to be overwhelmed a bit a first and it wasnt as smooth as it could have been.
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skimottaret, I stand corrected. My thinking was that such a capital & space intensive operation is hard to sustain on its own - clearly Hemel think they can do it with less retail. I wasn't expecting there to be many vacant units but it only takes one or 2 of the restaurant chains or lifestyle store to go bump.
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fatbob, the key question is will Hemel have Telemark rental gear 
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The Sno!zone and the retail parts of MK Xscape are run as distinct entities and I am told both sides are really quite profitable.
ssnowman, I'd be amazed if MK doesn't survive. From your post I'd guess you've had poor experiences there and poss that these were followed by worse customer service, for you to want to go all the way to Tamworth which imo is a worse slope but by all accounts run extremely well. However I ski at MK quite regularly and though my situation isn't exactly like yours, my impression and experience of MK is very different. Anyway if the slope or customer service are really so bad then the popularity of the place, during any school holiday and anywhere near ski season, speaks volumes about the size and strength of the market. I think there's plenty of room and customers enough for both, and the competition will be good for MK. As skimottaret says the battleground is in the off season. MK has some improving yet to do in various ways if things at Hemel end up being run as well as I'm expecting.
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Competition is a good thing, it will hopefully keep things honest, raise the standard at MK and stop Hemel from slipping.
In looking at the business demographic models for Hemel, it's catchment area didn't even include Milton Keynes, the line was pretty much drawn east/west and down towards London within a 1 hour travelling time. Ignoring MK the catchment is still huge in population terms. London would easily support more snow domes, especially to the West & South.
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MK will survive, numbers may drop off initially as regular MK users try out Hemel but I'm sure there's plenty of business for both.
fatbob, As skimottaret, says the snow slope (Sno!zone) is profitable in it's own right. FY ending Dec 07 Milton Keynes & Castelford had EBITDA of approx £2.5m off t/o of approx £10.5m. I'm not sure exactly what this includes, I expect it includes f&b but not rental income from the retail as Sno!zone and Xscape are run as separate businesses.
However, it is also right to say that without the retail and other leisure element these slopes would simply not have been built. The numbers would not have stacked up to get bank financing. I believe the snow slope was originally let but Sno!zone set up to run it by Xscape when the original tenant failed.
MK does not have many voids, this is primarily due to its location on the edge of the town centre. Indeed I believe they have planning consent to extend the retail space. I'm sure it will be hit by the downturn as almost everywhere else in the UK will be, but that is the market, and not the location or the concept. Castleford however is a different story, they have struggled to let all the space - there is too much of it for the location.
X-Leisure, the fund that owns Xscape and Sno!zone is not doing so well (hardly a surprise at the moment!) and has been trying but failing to sell assets over the past year to reduce gearing. Luckily they've just managed to sell the O2 centre in north London so that should help.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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MK slope is a joke. Provides me with 5 mins entertainment on a Sat afternoon, watching idiots crashing into each other. But I'd rather not ski than use it myself, it's that poor.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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uktrailmonster, when were you there last? Yesterday was quite good and the snow was in good nick
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ssnowman,
| Quote: |
I know the people behind Hemel are passionate about the slope and they seem to have learned from the mistakes of the other real snow centres, and I feel this coupled with its geographical location will make it a success..
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That smacks of having the potential to be ruined by being a victim of it's own success.
Lets hope not 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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uktrailmonster, so why do you think the people just keep going there? 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I expect there are quite a few folk who don't visit indoor fridges like MK purely because of the overcrowding – the opening of the Hemel slope may (or may not) alleviate this noticeably and have an impact at a place like MK where I think there are more have-a-go skiers and boarders who do it on the off chance. Tamworth seems to be rammed in the day moreso these days, but that's also down to the smaller capacity. Tam definitely has a more 'hardcore' feel to it and that's proven by the success of the freestyle nights.
MK has got worse over the past few years I've been boarding; the snow was grainy but well managed when i first went but lately it seems that whenever I go the snow is getting thinner and icier in places to the extent that half the slope has to be avoided... if it isn't closed of for sledging already that is!!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, when were you there last? Yesterday was quite good and the snow was in good nick |
Haven't been to MK for a few weeks. I only ever get to see it at weekends and it looks like a zoo. Half the slope closed for kids sledging, loads of out of control loonies, ridiculously slow lifts and often only 1 side running. Looks rubbish.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| slikedges wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, so why do you think the people just keep going there? |
To learn to ski as far as I can see from the weekend crowds. It's very rare to see anyone using the slope who vaguely has a clue what they're doing. The lack of supervision is frightening. Maybe it's better at off peak times?
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uktrailmonster, I can sympathise with you... a few weeks ago the slopes were in really bad condition with the huge numbers on the run up to the school holidays. with the large numbers the snow gets scrapped down quickly and then the ice layer starts to get thin. the ice covers the glycol pipes and it had gotten very thin and the piste basher cut through the ice and into the pipes a few times. Pretty disastrous as they have to repair the pipes and clean up the coolant further eroding the snow/ice depth, then cordon off the area to allow a build up back to safe levels of snow...
But it seems to have recovered quickly and back in good condition. the most frustrating thing for me is the closure for toboganning, it really stresses the single lower slope and conditions get bad quickly. Hopefully Hemel will only ever do that on their bunny slope and not mess up the main slope.
I also agree that the average punter are beginners and early intermediates but i dont see too many out of control types but i am only there around once a week. There are some quite good skiers there but I think you will find most of the better skiers are there in the off peak times in the race club, performance clinics, breakfast clubs etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The Glycol pipes at Hemel are set into steel channels about 100mm below the surface of the snow base, so no risk of damage from piste basher. I suppose it's another thing learnt and modified for future installations.
There will never be Tobogganing on the Hemel main slope. Fortunately the nursery slope is also 32m wide, which allows for it to take place there out of the way.
The last time I went to MK, albeit a very long time ago now, I slope was half cordoned off for tobogganing, the other was full of furniture, unprotected, which resulted in a broken leg. I conplained before the accident and got nowhere.
I will never return to the place.
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I go to MK a couple of times over the summer with the kids - it helps them "keep their hand in".
Generally is a lot quieter when out the main skiing season.
It's not perfect by any means - but its better than nothing
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| skimottaret wrote: |
But it seems to have recovered quickly and back in good condition. the most frustrating thing for me is the closure for toboganning, it really stresses the single lower slope and conditions get bad quickly. Hopefully Hemel will only ever do that on their bunny slope and not mess up the main slope.
I also agree that the average punter are beginners and early intermediates but i dont see too many out of control types but i am only there around once a week. There are some quite good skiers there but I think you will find most of the better skiers are there in the off peak times in the race club, performance clinics, breakfast clubs etc. |
I guess better skiers don't bother at weekends for the same reasons I don't. With half the slope blocked off for toboganning (what a waste of the limited resource), the poor standard of slope supervision and the woefully poor uplifts, it just isn't worth the cost. I should take my camcorder and video a bit of the Sat afternoon action. I guarantee there will be lots of crash footage.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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When is Hemel opening?
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We start making snow at Hemel tomorrow.
Our slalom pole bases are limited to 30cm (along with the drill bit) Our snow depth will be 50cm. Over the last few days the tech team have been fixing the glycol pipes in to the steel shutters by creating an ice layer. Holds them in place and protects them.
PSG
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I live in MK and even with Xscape on the doorstep we used to drive to Hemel to use the dryslope.
Can't see us using either tbh - unless we get some good offers on out of season prices... is there a spam list I can join so that I get sent any offers???
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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gilleski, on our clubs drills we blunted the tips a bit which seemed to help avoid problems when drilling. There was talk of buying a depth gauge to measure snow pack thickness at MK but nothing ever happened on that might be worth having one at Hemel
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skimottaret,
I heard MK tried to put a restrictive clause in their instructors contracts to stop them working at Hemel. Totally unenforceable however.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Mon 16-03-09 19:11; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Spyderman, I doubt they will, it would be the better instructors they ended up losing I suspect if they tried to enforce that rule...
Anyway, I think skimottaret, only does race club now at MK?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Spyderman wrote: |
skimottaret,
I heard MK tried to put a restrictive clause in their instructors contracts to stop them working at Hemel. Totally unenforceable however. |
Why do you think it might be unenforceable?
They might not want to enforce it, because they would lose instructors, but in law such a clause would almost certainly be enforceable.
Clauses in contracts preventing you working for competitors at the same time are not uncommon.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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alex_heney, I suspect he means commercially unenforceable.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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alex_heney, That type of restrictive practice for part-time instructors is not legally enforceable. Restrictive covenants are only valid provided they are confined within reasonable limits. A clause which is too wide will be held void as being in unreasonable restraint of trade. A part-time instructor is exactly that - part-time. Ski Instructors are qualified free agents and as such should be able to work for multiple employers without hindrance.
As long as the Instructor is not drawing custom away from one employer towards another there should not be a problem.
More likely is that the first time the employer tried to enforce it's clause, their Instructors would vote with their feet, as well as failing should it ever reach court.
Stupid of them to even think about such a restriction on their instructors in the first place, they must know it's hollow.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| I guess better skiers don't bother at weekends for the same reasons I don't. With half the slope blocked off for toboganning (what a waste of the limited resource), the poor standard of slope supervision and the woefully poor uplifts, it just isn't worth the cost. I should take my camcorder and video a bit of the Sat afternoon action. I guarantee there will be lots of crash footage. |
Except in addition for charging for lockers etc. cameras are also banned 
The only time I have ever been to MK was new years day since I knew it would be almost empty at 9am! I was horrified when the closed half the bottom of the slope for tobogganing and at the stuff coming through the snow on the lift.
I have been to chillfactore a few times but only ever on sunday morning during the summer. If I can't use my slalom skis as they are intended without worrying about cutting someone up or ski straight onto the lift each time it's a total waste of time and money especially with the amount of lift breakdowns (usually one every 3 runs).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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narc, The Camera ban probably has something to do with there being children about and all of the Child Protection issues.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
alex_heney, That type of restrictive practice for part-time instructors is not legally enforceable. Restrictive covenants are only valid provided they are confined within reasonable limits. A clause which is too wide will be held void as being in unreasonable restraint of trade.
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Agreed, but this would almost certainly not be seen as being too wide.
A clause saying they could not work for any other indoor slope probably would be, but one preventing them only from working for the nearest competition would almost certainly be legally enforceable.
Even clauses preventing working for close competitors for a period after leaving the current client have been found to be enforceable, although only if they are very restricted in their application.
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A part-time instructor is exactly that - part-time. Ski Instructors are qualified free agents and as such should be able to work for multiple employers without hindrance.
As long as the Instructor is not drawing custom away from one employer towards another there should not be a problem.
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Any such clause would be based on that being precisely what would be happening.
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More likely is that the first time the employer tried to enforce it's clause, their Instructors would vote with their feet, as well as failing should it ever reach court.
Stupid of them to even think about such a restriction on their instructors in the first place, they must know it's hollow. |
Apart from the "failing should it ever reach court", this bit I agree with. As I said above, they probably wouldn't want to enforce it, because they would lose their instructors.
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alex_heney, I think the key to whether any covenant would be enforceable is if the instructor is full or part-time. If they're part-time, I don't think they'd have a snowball in hell's chance of making it stick.
The clause was set to restrict employment, not specifically to prevent poaching of business and as such in my opinion is unenforceable.
I wonder if there's a test case involving a ski instructor 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
MK will survive, numbers may drop off initially as regular MK users try out Hemel but I'm sure there's plenty of business for both.
fatbob, As skimottaret, says the snow slope (Sno!zone) is profitable in it's own right. FY ending Dec 07 Milton Keynes & Castelford had EBITDA of approx £2.5m off t/o of approx £10.5m. I'm not sure exactly what this includes, I expect it includes f&b but not rental income from the retail as Sno!zone and Xscape are run as separate businesses.
However, it is also right to say that without the retail and other leisure element these slopes would simply not have been built. The numbers would not have stacked up to get bank financing. I believe the snow slope was originally let but Sno!zone set up to run it by Xscape when the original tenant failed.
MK does not have many voids, this is primarily due to its location on the edge of the town centre. Indeed I believe they have planning consent to extend the retail space. I'm sure it will be hit by the downturn as almost everywhere else in the UK will be, but that is the market, and not the location or the concept. Castleford however is a different story, they have struggled to let all the space - there is too much of it for the location.
X-Leisure, the fund that owns Xscape and Sno!zone is not doing so well (hardly a surprise at the moment!) and has been trying but failing to sell assets over the past year to reduce gearing. Luckily they've just managed to sell the O2 centre in north London so that should help. |
I seem to recall that MK originally went bust and was bought by its current owners for very little, so the 'fridge' does not have to finance its initial construction. infrastructure and set-up costs. I doubt that any snowzone is a good business model if it has to include for financing of its own development costs - without piggy-backing on a bigger associated development - which is what Hemel seems to be doing, so it should prove interesting how things develop.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 17-03-09 9:37; edited 1 time in total
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
The "experience" is not good enough to attract keen skiers like myself to use it regularly at weekends (when I would have the time). I live 30 mins away, I love to ski, but I don't ski there. It always seems to be busy at weekends, so clearly no shortage of new punters. The demographic at those times is most certainly early beginners, so they can't by definition be regular slope users?
All I'm saying is that it could be run a LOT better than it currently is. |
The managers would probably argue taht if they are regularly crowded, then they don't need to run it any better.
That may be a rather short sighted view, but many businesses are not noted for their long termism.
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FAQ
From the top it could have been described as an eighth pipe 
to make their decisions based on more recent events.