What to do when seriously useless lessons?

A snowHead

Hi all,

Have been pondering our experience last week and decided to come and see what others thought about it.

Last year we had our first lessons in a long time, and were seriously impressed, totally engaged, motivated, and felt massive benefits from what we were being taught. Lots of individual analysis and correction as well as new/improved techniques. So as it was such a positive experience, I went all evangelical and decided we would have at least some instruction every holiday.

So last week in Schladming, we had 2 x 2 hours (private, but together) from one of the ski schools there, and it was the biggest let-down I could have imagined, in fact I never imagined it would be that bad. After last year's great instructor, we thought we may not do quite as well this time, but we were still really looking forward to it, but what we got was really totally useless.

There were four of us, and the first bit of 'follow me so I can see how you ski' type thing was kind of fair enough, but as soon as we stopped, he said (in veeeerrrry bad English, after I had been assured that he had 'perfect' English), 'ah so the level is very good' (it really wasn't though). He seemed at this point to decide he couldn't really teach us anything, so the lesson was more like guiding. He also then continued to speak in German the whole lesson leaving me and one of the party to translate into English, which inevitably means whole long reams being reduced to a few short sentences as we tried to catch and translate everything he said. But actually, what he was saying in German wasn't that enlightening anyway.

We didn't bother going back to our second lesson as there didn't seem much point, and it was a cr@ppy weather day anyway. I went into the ski school to ask if there was anyone else who could take it, but they didn't have anyone available for the slot we needed who spoke English.

So anyway, as intermediate recreational skiers (15-25 weeks) with still an awful lot of room for improvement, it seems the ski school pretty much opted out of trying to teach us anything. I was really disappointed as we had had such a great experience last year, and so to return to 'bend ze knees and follow' was just a big letdown. I guess I expected at this stage that an instructor would really analyse each of us individually and kind of take our skiing to pieces and put it back together with improvements, when really he just acted like he was a tour guide. I mean he was a nice guy, but that's not what you pay instructors for is it?

I can understand that some people might think that 2 x 2 hours is not enough to really improve so what did we expect, but actually last year's lessons were pretty much (ski)life changing and so I did expect some kind of improvement.

I guess my question is, what measures can skiers on the more advanced side of intermediate take to make as certain as possible that their lessons are worthwhile?

D

A snowHead

What's worked for me is to use British ski schools in France. Native English speakers (or French/Italian with genuinely good English), fully qualified including many who teach and assess other instructors, and a range of different courses to sample. Downside is they are generally more expensive (easiski being an honourable exception to that rule) and you choose the ski school first rather than the resort so you might end up somewhere you're not especially keen on visiting.

Who taught you last year? Could you not have used them again?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

We were in a different resort to last year as our own place was booked out, so couldn't use last year's guy, who is a native English speaker based in Colorado and by our good luck, in Zell Am See last year and this season. In hindsight, given we were only 30 miles away, I would have paid to chauffeur him over but that's hindsight for you!

I guess in a resort with more choice of ski schools and more English tourists we would have had better odds (I chose the school we used as I head heard bad reports about the other one!), but with a large group, it is not really feasible choosing a resort based on how 4 of us want to spend 4 hours of a week. It's hard enough finding accommodation and hills that fit our needs. Everyone said it was a fab holiday in every respect (apart from the instruction for the four of us who had it), so I wouldn't want to sacrifice everyone else's enjoyment. I guess I could just limit our instruction to the trips where it's just H and me and we can pick where we go, but it's tricky. There are a lot less British ski schools in Austria (at a guess I would say perhaps in St Anton, but I don't know of any) than in France so there aren't that many options to choose from. I guess I'm just not dedicated enough as I don't want to go on a holiday somewhere I have no interest in going just to get good instruction, so I suppose it serves me right, but I still think that it shouldn't be too big an ask that intermediate level skiers still improve, even if it's not the most important consideration of the trip.

I suppose I need to separate learning and improving from going on actual ski holidays, and treat them as two separate entities.

It's just a shame because whilst I know there are ups and downs, I didn't think they would be that dramatic, and it's not very motivating for future trips, unless we know we can get someone we know is great.

D

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rob@rar, now I have seen that, I recognise them, but I really don't know of any others. I would love to be able to afford to do that kind of course, but it's a lot of money, and not conducive to holidaying with friends really.

I agree I guess I need to separate the learning from the holiday, but I had foolishly thought we could achieve both!

D

After all it is free

Yoda, I can see you're right, and I guess we hadn't been clear enough with them. The German thing was only annoying as two in our party didn't speak German, and I had specifically asked for a fluent English speaker. If it had just been the two of us who are pretty fluent in German, we would have just had the whole lesson in German and that would have been fine.

But I guess you're right about us not being specific enough. I think we were just blown away last year by how effective the instructor was, with very little preamble from us. Maybe it lulled us into a bit of a false sense of security in that sense.

D

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ccl, I think your comment kind of hit the nail on the head, that was exactly what had happened last year and was kind of what I was expecting again.

Latchigo, I would always ask for recommendations but I didn't get any in this resort (Schladming). I think it's easier in more brit-focussed places.

D

You know it makes sense.

Deliaskis, I am wondering if 'ah so the level is very good' might have really meant "ah your level exceeds my fluency to explain in English"

So... Canada next year?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

rob@rar, thanks Cool

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Deliaskis, If its any consolation, my instructor in Soll (2nd time skiing) was absolutely rubbish - he didn't really teach us anything - he just sort of got us to follow him about the mountain. 5 of the class dropped out in the middle of the week.

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Deliaskis, I know a guy who (I believe) heads up a ski school in Austria.... He is an Aussie trainer and also a staatliche... his wife was a czech team skier... I can vouch for his ability and dedication.... I've sent him a message to check where he is.... He will be able to at least suggest folks that should be good for you...

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comprex, pam w, I think you may be right about the English, although his German explanations weren't enlightening either, so perhaps partly he was trying to dumb down for us to translate (which he needn't have done), and partly maybe he couldn't be bothered! I had said to the ski school that we needed an English speaker, and again, in more brit-orientated resort, there are native speakers, or at least dutch multilingualists. I feel bad expecting english speakers, but I do speak German, just not all of our group did.

jb1970, well sorry you had a cr@p time too, but at least it wasn't just us!

little tiger, I would appreciate that if you can, it would be really useful to know.

Thanks for all the replies, it's interesting to hear about other people's experiences.

NB, I don't want anyone to think that I am suggesting that 'ah your level is very good' actually means we are, we're just pretty average really!!

D

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Deliaskis, If you find yourself in Saalbach I can heartily recommend this ski school: http://www.skischule-saalbach.at/skischule2/html/en/index.asp

Myself and three mates used them in January. Two of us were 'experienced' (one is an ex military instructor!) and two were novices. We had an instructor for each pair, and they were excellent. In fact Georgi, my instructor, was the best i have ever had. he got me carving properly for the first time, (which was what I asked him for) but also got me skiing smother and faster and with less effort than I had ever skied before. Both guys were actually Bulgarian and spoke excellent english (in fact better than their German!). They said several Austrian schools use Bulgarian Instructors because they can get higher qualified teachers for less money than the locals. On the third day the two guys had a free afternoon, so extended our two hour lesson to four (actually nerarer five, and completely FOC!) and took us all the way over to Leogang via the 'scenic' route.

To be honest they made the week for us and if I could be sure of getting them again I'd go back to Saalbach just for that. (I'd go back anyway, Saalbach is a great resort Laughing

).

Before booking the school I did exchange several emails with them explaining exactly what the four of us wanted from our lessons and their replies showed that they were listening.

Just as illustration, here's a very short video clip of the two of them showing us how to carve (for a bit of fun) on the last afternoon:
http://youtube.com/v/yASRKsoOi0o Georgi is the 'first' guy down the hill.

he didn't get me quite up to that standard Embarassed

, but he did make a real difference to my skiing. snowHead

After all it is free

Axsman, thanks for the recommendation, it's good to know, and as we are in Zell often, and our instructor of choice won't always be there as he's based in Colorado most of the time, we would definitely go over to Saalbach for that kind of instruction. We normally ski Saalbach 2 days in the week anyway as Zell is quite small and the combined pass is great, so that's really useful. Your experience of learning new specific things, but also learning to ski smoother and faster and with less effort than ever before mirrors exactly my experience in Zell last year, it really made the week for us too.

Yeah we love Saalbach too, we really wanted to buy there but couldn't guarantee the summer rental yields to make it turn enough of a profit. It's a bit of a tumbleweed situation in summer apart from literally 4 weeks. But we always ski there, it's only 15 minutes down the road anyway Very Happy

.

Thanks
D

Deliaskis, snowprofi@yahoo.com is his email His name is Hugo. Wife is Katy

he says

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Thanks little tiger, have bookmarked them!

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Deliaskis, You are welcome Very Happy

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Deliaskis, sorry to hear about your experience.

I think the problem in Austria is there's not a lot of choice ski school wise so you are stuck with whatever instructor the local schools allocate to you unless you know of a good 'un and request them (and they're available). I was out in St Anton at Xmas (as you probably know) and the choice there was very limited so the family just went with the ski school packages that were offered by the company we went with. I opted for an off-piste course with a company called Piste to Powder who are run by a Brit ISTD but employ mostly local guides, the guide (who was a local) was very good but I ignored most of his tips because he was suggesting a very different way of skiing to the one I need to develop for BASI - bit old school, skis close together, jump turns etc.

One very interesting thing he said was that the reason there are so few (if any) independent ski schools in Austria is because there's a bit of a closed shop between the resorts and the ski schools. According to him anyone suitably qualified is free to open a ski school but there's a rule that you have to have an official registered meeting place on the slopes if you are a ski school (as opposed to guiding or coaching outfit) based in resort and offering lessons at all levels etc. Now that's all very well but he suggested that because the resorts are keen to promote the local ski schools there's no way anyone but these schools will be given such a meeting place, and certainly not a Brit run independent school. This means that although there's ostensibly the freedom for anyone with the right qualifications to open a ski school, like France where you have to be an ISTD, in reality nobody else can do it!

Now if this is true, and it certainly explains the distinct lack of alternatives in Austrian resorts, norra lorra people know this and it puts some of the criticisms that I've seen here of the way it's done in France into perspective IMHO! It's a bit like the difference between private hire cabs who cannot pick up from the streets or taxi ranks but can only do business by pre-booking and those licensed by a council to pick up wherever and whenever and use official taxi ranks.

A case in point is Alpine Ski Coaching, who are mentioned above, they only offer pre-booked courses so aren't a ski school in the accepted sense of the word, rather they do pre booked coaching courses. I know Pete Silver-Gillespie who runs the outfit (he was my BASI trainer on the last course I did) and know people who have gone on their courses and they are apparently very good indeed but you can only do the dates and courses they offer in their publicity because the rest of the time they are not based in Austria.

Personally in the past I've always gone for the British ski school option and have never regretted it, despite the slightly higher price, although if you know of good instructors in the local school (like for example Rory Scott and Stuart Woodward in the Tignes ESF) you can't go wrong. The problem is that in Austria the former isn't an option unless I went for the Alpine Ski Coaching courses (but they haven't coincided with my holiday dates so far) and with the latter it's proved impossible, even in places like St Anton, to find high enough qualified instructors who can do what I specifically need (BASI training). As a result I've spent a lot of this season in Tignes where I know instructors and trainers and can do both ski school shadowing and coaching that fulfils my probably more specific needs (oh, and I'll probably do some up in Scotland in April too after another week in Tignes Toofy Grin

)

Anyway, don't give up and best of luck in finding a decent instructor out there ... and do share the names of any you find around, there's a distinct lack of information on good options in Austria! snowHead

roga, thanks for your post, some interesting observations. I didn't know they had to have registered meeting places, but now I do, it all makes sense. A lot of resorts in Austria are quite 'closed shop' in a lot of sense, for example in most of Tirol and Vorarlberg it's pretty much impossible for foreigners to buy property, despite the fact that on paper, there is no reason why they can't. There are a number of resorts where literally all the hotels, ski shops, ski schools and restaurants are owned by maybe two or three families, who's other relatives manage the lift company etc. so it is very much a case of 'local shops for local people' in a number of senses!

D

You know it makes sense.

Deliaskis, in Obertauern last year we had to have a baby instructor for our pvt lesson on the first day, an inexperienced Anwarter. I'd emailed ahead with our requirements, and even popped into the school office the evening before, to confirm our level and requirements. We wanted 2 private instructors for a few days of each of the 2 weeks we were there.

Two arrived punctually at the appointed meeting point near the hotel. The man looked fine (turned out to be a top qualified Staatlicher) . I took one look at the attractive young lady though, asked her with absolutely no expectation of an answer in the affirmative, if she had any race experience, and tried to reject her. They'd planned on her taking my kids, but I had told them specifically that I wanted an instructor with some race experience for them. The Staatlicher rang back to the office and was told that no one else was available, so said that he'd take the kids and she'd take us! I agreed only on the basis that we wouldn't pay if she wasn't suitable and they accepted this. We set off. She told me she'd skied since young but to my eye hadn't really been that attentive to her skiing. She certainly couldn't rail much less carve. After the 1st run, she made no further attempt at instructing me and we all enjoyed a pleasant tour of the resort. The next day a different but equally attractive young lady was despatched. She was wearing a race helmet/boots/skis and effortlessly made mincemeat of me.

This year in Whistler my wife wasn't too happy with the way the Dave Murray camp was going and we just got the balance of her course refunded and put towards Supergroups.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

rob@rar, on reflection the second one was possibly even more attractive wink

A snowHead

I had a bad experience with a British ski instructor in Zermatt, very similar to Deliaskis, in that she said we were not bad skiers so seemed to think that meant we could just follow her about. I did ask her some specific questions and after struggling down a narrow,slushy/scraped, steep slope told her that was the sort of slope I struggled with and how could I improve, she just told me everyone struggles when its like that rolling eyes

I think I would only pay for an instructor that was recommended by others or had a higher level of qualification, I think this girl just had BASI 1.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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lynseyf, That was my experience with BASI folks prior to meeting Easiski...

My boss booked a private lesson for him, his son, buddies and invited me to join.... the guy had us short turns and proclaimed "she is showing off" .... aeroplane drill - "Are you a racer?" He had really obvious old school step in all his turns... Did not manage ANY feedback to me besides the 2 above comments... oh and he was trying to make the others learn to carve by turning DOWNHILL from the traverse he was setting - this is way the hardest part.... no uphill first then work into it.... I had to show them that later!

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comprex, explanation he re wink

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

slikedges, ah, quite a different usage than I'm familiar with then.

I am wondering whether she was on appropriate skis for the lesson?

After all it is free

comprex, why are you making excuses for her? She wasn't as attractive as that. She wouldn't've been able to tell the difference.

rob@rar, BASI level 1 I think, I wasn't really aware of the different grades at the time but she did say her skiing was pretty rubbish before she took the course

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lynseyf, Yes - you have to be careful with that - I'm a BASI Grade 1, which is now ISTD an the top, so it can be touchy with old fogies like me!! Laughing

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What to do when seriously useless lessons?

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