 Poster: A snowHead
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There's a thread on EpicSki about tipping ski instructors: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=23055. I know the tipping culture in the States is very different from here in the UK, and I haven't had a ski lesson for years now (though I should). What do you do? Do you give your instructor a tip in Europe? Do they expect one?
And I was shocked to read how little of the cost of a lesson the instructor actually gets: $12 to $20 per hour when the lesson is charged at something like $120. Surely it's not the same in Europe?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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RachelQ, if you take a private lesson in Europe or at least in Switzerland it is considered polite to buy the instructor a drrink after the lesson, or if you've got an all day lesson then to buy the instructor lunch. If in a group lesson tipping of any sort is rare
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've tended not to tip in group ski lessons - perhaps unfairly. I do usually tip guides. Tipping has merit. Witholding it in trades where it is considered part of the income is an effective way of showing displaeasure. OTOH, paying rewards good service. I believe the tax authorities tend to assume tipping for some work. Perhaps there are some tax experts who can let us know. If so, witholding a tip can have a very real pin for your waiter, instructor, or whatever.
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I read somewhere recently (was it here?) that in France instructors get paid pro-rata, about €40k per year. Hardly a King's ransom when one considers that the length of a season would in actual fact mean a real income of about €14.5k.
Am I right in thinking that the more lessons an instructor does, he/she is also earns a "bonus"?
As for tipping, you're buying a service and contracting the price at the outset. I'd rather not see tipping become the norm as it will muddy the already confused waters about what constitutes good/poor service and could lead to bad feeling. It's not quite the same as a restaurant, where one generally tips for service unless it is poor which is usually indisputable.
Where would it stop? Tipping your tennis coach, or similar?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In America I would always tip instructors - know what they earn, and given how good the ones are that I use, I think they deserve it.
Over here, in the past, if I have had a good group lesson, I'll make the point of buying the instructor a drink or two.
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Nick Zotov, in the UK waiters, hotel porters and so on do indeed have their tax code adjusted to take into account undeclared tips, I cannot comment on arrangement overseas
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I tend not to tip unless I'm impressed by the servicve - and yes, I;ve worked in restaurants, and no I didn't expect tips but was pleased to get them (twice in three years!)
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nbt, where were you working? McDonalds?
I always tip in restaurants, unless the service is really poor. Isn't this normal?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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marc gledhill, yes, I think that is normal. I'd only not tip in a restaurant if the service was bad.
But I'm only talking about ski instructors - in the USA it seems to be considered the norm to tip because they are paid so badly but it seems that isn't the case in Europe.
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I've been taking group /private lessons for about 15 years, mainly in Austria. The group has always tipped ... usually EUR10 or EUR15 per person. And for private lessons, I generally tip EUR20 for a two hour lesson. Not huge I know .. but if the instructor got EUR20 extra for every 2 hour lesson, then it would help.
I've had great skiing and brilliant craic with most of the instructors .. and they've really added to the holiday and were worth every cent. And usually EUR 20 means a lot more to a seasonal worker than a holidaymaker.
If you're not happy with the instructor then either change class (if its a group one) .. or don't tip.
If they've helped make your holiday, then tip 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I was working in the function room of a large hotel, rather than the restaurant. But a tip is supposed to be thanks for extra special service, not something that you;re supposed to give.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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nbt, I think of a tip as a way of saying "thank you" to someone in the service industry. If their service has been especially good, then they can expect a bigger tip (also if my group has been awkward to them, then they may well get more)
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but that's my point fox, I don;t get tips from clients for doing my job, so why should I tip someone else for simply doing theirs? if they make a special effort thwen yes, but why earn extra for simply delivering food and not being rude?
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You know it makes sense.
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nbt, tipping practice depends on trade and country, I think. In anyase, of course 'sup2u.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Nick Zotov, I'm not so sure. If in the US (as an eg.) the waiter gets bug all and has to live on tips, then you really should tip, unless you have a good reason not to - not the other way round.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I usually tip ski instructors (I take group lessons) when I can afford it - but then that's because I know how little they get paid! I won't tip if I haven't had a very good lesson, though. But I do also agree with nbt, I don't get tips for doing my job either, even though I provide a service. What I really object to, is people suddenly working harder in anticipation of a tip - if a job is worth doing, then it is worth doing well, and if it's not worth doing then don't do it! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In the US (and Canada) it is (almost) impossible for an instructor to make a living by instructing alone. The proportion of the cost to the customer of a lesson ithat the instructor actually sees is miniscule. European instructors tend to be paid more.
UK clients are regarded with some suspicion by North American instructors, because they tend not to tip: they regard the instructor as a "professional" rather than a poorly paid piece-worker, and they don't realise how little they actually earn. - I didn't realise until reading the (numerous) threads on this subject on EpicSki, over the years.
Now, when I take a lesson in N. America (invariably as part of a group) I tip, and I always try to persuade everyone in the group to chip in at the end of the lesson.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm headed to Chamonix Jan. 29 from the US and have hired a guide for the week. What should I tip? 
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I would completely agree with Sonya, its always been standard practice every time I've been in lessons. Usually hand it over in the pub on the last day as a thankyou for a great week. Obviously if I'd had a bad experience / poor instructor then I wouldn't dream of it. I generally tip after private lessons too. It's nice to be nice and they do make a big positive impact on the holiday - maybe its just that wee Irish are nice people!!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Where's PG when you need him?
Can anyone explain why instructors in Nth America are paid so poorly? Is it the same in Canada, where I believe they have a shortage of instructors?
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| Quote: |
I hate tipping & i really resent paying it!!!
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Then don't On the few occasions I have had someone stand in front of me,quite obviously expecting some ad hoc payment,I've completely ignored them.If you're so pleased with the service you've just received then,at your discretion,by all means reward them.But to do so "because its expected"!!Sorry,it just don't wash with me.Being self employed,I get paid for the work I do,at the price I've quoted;and no more.Any reward comes in the form of verbal praise for a job well done.It works for me,and the customer.
I was unaware of the situation in N.America.Sounds like an industry scandal to me.No doubt these instructors are paying the financial penalty for doing work they love.And are being thoroughly shafted by their employers in the process!Do they not have a professional body to represent them?Or is it they are falling foul of the supply and demand thing.If everybody wants to be a ski instructor,they're always be plenty who'll work for peanuts,just so they can play on the hill all day.Or am I reading the situation wrong?
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Tips and gratuities -
UK taxation aspects - in short, employees are taxable on their earnings which includes any salary, wage, fee or gratuity .
Tips are outside the scope of national insurance unless the employer has comtrol over their distribution. Cash payments given directly to a waiter are not earnings ( for NI purposes ) , (reasoning - there is no contractual relationship between you the punter and the waiter) but tips included on the credit card slip, and therefore distributed by the employer. ARE earnings( for NI purposes).
Practical implications - its is better to give the tip directly to the waiter to save him been deducted national insurance if was paid directly to the employer by credit card slip. From the cashflow point of view the waiter is subject only to income tax on the tip received and which he accounts for directly through his tax coding.
Non-UK - different countries have different rules.
( NB - filing date for UK taxation returns is 31 January 2005 to avoid interest, penalties and possible 5% surcharges ).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| snowskisnow wrote: |
| .....Or am I reading the situation wrong? |
I think you may be. Some service providers (eg waiters and, apparently, ski instructors) - are paid in the basis that they will be tipped if they are good at their work (so much so, that in the UK tax codes for some work reflect this). A bit like where a salesperson may be paid a basic salary, with commission on sales on top. It's just the culture over there. So, when you are buying a service, you budget for giving a tip as well. Of course, if the service is not good, you may not tip - a very effective penalty. OTOH, if you are happy with the service but do not tip, there is a case for saying you are applying an unfair sanction.
I gues it varies by trade and country. When in Rome...
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We've always tipped ski instructors - if in a group we normally get in a huddle and decide what we'll all give and then hand it over in one lump sum. With Club Ski last year in Banff, M. Coins' instructor kept telling the group how it was expected that instructors get tipped etc etc. It really put their backs up except he was very good so duly got his tip.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
| It's not a question about being "nice" or "generous" |
The discussion was really about Ski intructors as opposed to waiting staff. I feel it is actually a question of being nice, and when on holiday it isn't exactly going to break the bank to give the instructor 10 or 20 euro as a thankyou. If the instructor or any service industry person just expects to be tipped then thats a VERY different matter in my book.
I detest places and people where generous tipping is assumed. My personal bugbear is why I would want to tip a bar tender for handing me a bottle of beer, and particularly why that bar tender would expect to receive that tip every time he handed me a bottle of beer!? I've been in this situation in the states loads of times!!
So i guess in summary - I'm more than happy to tip instructors if its been good. With food and drink I generally stick to the 'standard levels' dependent upon quality. And - if anyone makes it clear that they expect a tip, my back goes up and they get nothing or the bare minimum!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I wouldn't have thought instructors and waiters were in the same income band. The accepted form is to leave, say, a 10% tip for service - unless it has been poor.
Someone suggested €10-€20 for an instructor. Well a 2 hour lesson seems to be in the region of €65, so what is the "form" here? And as asked earlier, where does one draw the line? We could really do with someone with knowledge of these matters (PG? Easiski?). What % of the hourly rate goes to the instructor? What do other nations do? I've no real problem buying an instructor a refreshment (bearing in mind this would usually happen within the time you've already paid for!), but feel that if I'm buying a service, and it delivers what I'm anticipating, then that is what I have contracted for. If that service has been excellent then pass the comments to the owner/manager of the company - something I did recently, much to the apparent gratitude of the owner.
In terms of ski instructors (in Europe at least), then if there is a certain quality that is being sought, then market forces dictate to a degree that they (instructors) demand a certain wage level, no?
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| Mark Hunter wrote: |
| Someone suggested €10-€20 for an instructor. |
Yes - At the end of a week of group lessons, not after a one or two hour private lesson. Would also be interested to hear from those in the know as to the form for this as you say.
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You know it makes sense.
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Me too, Adam and Mark, that's why I started this thread - apart from being so surprised at the low earnings of ski instructors in the States - I want to know what the situation is in Europe. But maybe there isn't a 'form' as such, just individual choice.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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OK here it is from the horse's mouth!!
Ski teachers in Europe earn (when fully qualified) approximately €40 per hour give or take. A lot depends on the ski school and how much work you get. The lower down the list you are (eg: newer) the less work you are given. I can't speak about Switzerland and Austria because it's so long since I worked there, but most ski schools in France are "collectives". Every permanent instructor (ie: fully qualified) is a partner in the school and entitled to a profit share at the end of the season and a vote on important things (such as buying a new computer system/minibus). In the 3 valleys I believe they can earn almost twice as much as this BTW.
I have been tipped, and the lady at the local tax office asked me about it, but they do not assume tipping. I personally find it very sweet, but embarassing. Many clients take me to dinner or a drink at the end of the week, or buy presents (choccies, wine, horrible hats etc.)
I don't know about the instructors who take part in the Epic Ski Academy, but a friend of mine who works in the States has recently been earning about the same as European instructors + tips. Are the instructors they're talking about FULLY qualified? Full Certs? If not then why not?
Instructors who haven't actually got the full whack of qualifications naturally cannot expect to earn the same as ones who have. NB: when I say fully qualified in relation to Europe I mean National + European speed test for all countries - not just ISIA (which isn't worth the paper is written on anyway).
From the student point of view, you should always tip in the States, unless unhappy with your lessons, and only in Europe if thrilled! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thank you easiski.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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And from me also.
Incidentally, I've just looked into taking a non-skiing friend of mine to Xscape in MK to try his hand. They're pretty well booked up during Feb, even during the day, which surprised me. One of the options was to look at a private lesson. £120.00 per hour. Now that struck me as kind of on the high side, especially given that the instructors are unlikely to be as qualified as those in a resort.
What do instructors get paid at Xscape? Anyone know? If it's half that amount, that's still a fair whack! If you taught 5 lessons per day, that's £300. If that's the case, where do you sign up?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mark Hunter, isn't rip off britain marvelous 
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D G, I wasn't sure about how much to rant at the price, as I've not really got any experience of what goes into calculating the cost, but rip off is putting it mildly!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mark Hunter, we had 3.5hrs with easkiski in the Summer and it didn't cost that. And you got fab views, and a good laugh.
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Mark Hunter, £30 more would by a 5 hour private lesson (all day) in Wengen at the Swiss Ski School, (that's for up to 4 people by the way) so yes £120 per hour does seem a bit expensive
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Thanks, easiski, that's crystal clear.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mark Hunter, might do 
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D G, thought I caught an undercurrent there
As for being ever so "lightly" p!ssed, slightly is obviously what I meant. The evils of drink when trying to type coherently!
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