pistetopowder.co St Anton

A snowHead

I've just booked a couple of days with this lot in St Anton next Feb half term (places going fast, can't afford to hang around) in the hope that they will give me and my family a good intro to off piste.

Any one have experience of them? All comments gratefully received (especially ones along ' Fanstastic people, great experience, wouldn't hesitiate to recommend them.' lines).

I've booked a couple of days; is that long enough to get into it a bit? At £285 a day, I'm not anxious to go for more, and we'll need some time to get our ski legs back and generally cruise around a bit.

A snowHead

I've been out with them a couple of times now, and although the people who manage to stay with them all day have a great time, there are a few caveats.

Every time that I've been out with them, people have dropped out during the day. On a couple of occassions these people have been really upset by a perceived lack of care and attention by the guide. This happened in a group that I was in both at level one and level two.

The first time I skied with them was three years ago, on one of their introduction to off-piste days. By the end of the day, out of an original group size of seven, there were only three of us left, partly because of the terrain that the guide had chosen to take us down IMO. I enjoyed it, but I was aware that the four who had dropped out (all competent red run skiers) had felt that they were being pushed too hard, and that the guide didn't really care about whether they enjoyed themselves or not.

I skied with them again this year, on the first day that I went out, they made me join a group that had already been together for the last two or three days, and despite me asking the guide whether we could initially go somewhere a little less challenging to get my confidence back, he led us off almost immediately on what I felt was quite an exposed traverse to be doing for a first run of the day in an entry level group, by the end of the traverse I had quite significant vertigo, something which I've not experienced before on the slopes. I did not enjoy the day and left at lunchtime. Another friend skied with some of the same group the next day, and reported that again some skiers left the group during the day, one lady in floods of tears, because she felt that the guide had over stretched her abilities and confidence.

Despite this, on the day after I went back, as four of us were planning on making up a group together, and so joined a group made up mostly of my friends, I explained the problems that I had had to the guide, and once again asked if we could do some confidence building runs initially, and then take it from there. Once again, it seemed to me as if my wishes were ignored, with our entrance to the first route being quite exposed, picking our way through exposed rocks and some avalanche barriers. Again I got an attack of vertigo, and left the group as soon as we reached the bottom.

My friends who stayed had a great day, but my confidence in the off-piste was much reduced by the end of the sessions, and as they promote themselves as offering mixed guiding and tuition I feel that this wasn't a very good result for me. It very much seems to be the case that if you can keep up then things are great, however if you struggle then not much is done to help you. It's especially galling as it wasn't so much my technical ability that was lacking, but more my confidence, something that I think could have fairly easily been sorted out on an "improving off-piste" day.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

To put things in context, I'm a skier with 30+ weeks of experience, 18 of those in the last four years, I'm a competent black-run skier, and have had no problems skiing unpisted itineraries in Zermatt, Les Deux Alpes, and Alp d'Huez both before and since this episode.

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Hmmmm, doesn't sound ideal, as we're all pretty much complete beginners off piste. We're going to a be a private group, so there'll be no pressure on the guide/instructor to keep any one else happy.

Did you have the same guide each time?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

richmond, a different one each time. To try and give a balanced view, I think that all my friends from the last time who used them would do so again, and I know of many other satisfied customers. I do think that if you are a confident off-piste skier then they're very good, but that if you're lacking a little in confidence, I wonder whether an english speaking instructor from the Arlberg ski school would be a better bet to get you up to speed. Also it may well be very different if you have a guide to yourselves with no other pressure on them to go onto hairier stuff, and if they hadn't have been so busy in February, I may have been tempted to take this option.

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Kramer, Do their guides have teaching qualifications? My experience of guides is that they are poor teachers, not surprising really as its not their job.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

rich, no they don't, but they do advertise themselves as offering off-piste tuition as well as simple guiding. The impression that I got was that they have been somewhat victims of their own success, and that they're having to take on guides on an ad hoc basis to cover demand on their busier periods, and that the guys that they take on are not that interested in helping someone progress with their skiing.

After all it is free

One of the guides has BASI1. They certainly promote themselves as suitable for people who haven't skied off piste before, such as us.

richmond, I've never skied with them, but have done quite a few trips with other outfits. It hasn't been unusual to have people drop out - off-piste skiing IS tiring. Crying or Very sad

There is variability in the moutain guides' skills and approaches, just the same as with any other profession. Probably the thing to remember is that you are the customer - so if you aren't happy - then see the head guide at the end of the day. He'll want you to come back ! snowHead

Having said that, skiing off-piste is more demanding than onpiste, very often there isn't an easy way down....so expect to get more tired than you would do with a weeks piste skiing. Don't expect to ski with a lot of style and grace Shocked

(especially in old snow), but you should still have fun !

Let us know how you get on >... Toofy Grin

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ski, you are right, and it does go with the territory somewhat, but I did feel that there could have been a more gentle introduction.

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Well they're going to have to be pretty gentle with me, or I'm not going. Apparently we'll start off on piste so that the guy can see what s/he's up against, then we head for some gentle off piste near the pistes. Then we have a tantrum and head for the bar.

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This seems horribly expensive to me. People should not drop out of a group - if they do the group is not being properly managed. It seems to me that you're going to be paying too much for too little. I suggest you save your money and come to LDA next year and I'll fix you up with someone who'll help, encourage etc and give you a good time (or I'll beat them into submission).

Listen guys - aren't you all getting carried away by publicity? If the guides offer teaching then they should be teachers, but also make sure they know what you want - it's their job to give it to you. If they dont' - demand your money back. In other words a competent red run skier having never gone off piste before should never be taken to places where there is no easy way out - they should be educated in a relatively safe environment first and gradually moved along the line - no different to any other form of teaching.

Of course richmond, if you were coming to the EOSB you could have intro to off piste lessons followed by a day and a half with a guide ...... Sounds much better value to me! Shock

You know it makes sense.

easiski, thanks for the offer, but we're committed to St Anton (maybe LDA in 2008? Why not?), and the EOSB is not a possibility either. As for the expense, I agree that it's horribly expensive but it seems to be on a par with private lessons elsewhere, including the St Anton ski schools (it's about the same for 4 of us as group lessons would be).

I shall have to think this over.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Kramer,

I'm surprized by your response. If I remember correctly you posted your experiences in another thread at the time. I was surprized you didn't have a good experience with Piste to Powder (P2P) and asked you at the time via PM what went wrong. You didn't say anything against the P2P guides then.

Graham (the owner of Piste to Powder) is currently on a Ski and Sail trip to Norway with many return customers who have been more than happy with his guiding in the past. (During March and April P2P conduct many trips).

I've skied with Graham for ca 20 days over the last 4 years. I know others who have skied with other Piste to powder Guides and been more than happy. Graham has a lot of Guides working for him, he has a lot of customers - many of them return but you can't please all the people all the time. In my experience the few people who have experienced problems while off-piste skiing with P2P would of been a problem for any Guide.

The guides have to look after the group from a safety point of view and provide the right level of powder thrills. Where the levels / states of mind in the group differ it's not always possible to please everyone. For example once I was in a group with some excellent Norwegian skiers and although they enjoyed the day they did comment that they were expecting to get in more vertical feet. Graham had been dealing with difficult snow conditions (caused by the weather) and looking after the safety of us weaker skiers and the pace wasn't set to keep up with the strongest skiers.

Richmond,

I take it that price you mentioned is for a whole group not one person for one day. In comparison to the local Ski Schools P2P were slightly more expensive but you are paying for fully qualified Ski Guides not just Ski instructors.

Just give Graham or Ruth a call and explain what exactly you are lookingf for, I'm sure you will be looked after.

A snowHead

DB, But if almost half the group are giving up each time that's too much. Also if they advertise teaching "from piste to powder" then surely that's what they should do? To take people who particularly ask for more gentle to start the first day to exposed places is just not on. Maybe Kramer had a particularly bad week, but he's a pretty handy skier, so it wasn't that. Puzzled

A snowHead

easiski,

Here is Kramer's earlier thread.
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=256754&highlight=offpiste#256754

You can check Graham's qualifications in this link ....
http://www.pistetopowder.com/
Graham was a ski teacher, like you he has a top Basi qualification (level 1) but he is younger so suspect he had to take the speed test. If I remember correctly he used to teach in France too and on top of that he's a fully qualified guide. He's well known and respected in St Anton, he's built up a business on a lot of returning customers - something I doubt he would be able to do if half of them were dropping out everyday.

Unlike on-piste instruction, guides have to think about snow conditions, safety and logistics. There isn't always a lift nearby and sometimes time contraints mean the pace has to be upped a little to get that last connection (e.g. ski-lift or train).

As others have said, to get the full benefit from taking a guide you need to have a resonable level of fitness. The people who dropped out of the groups I've been in were normally apres ski related. Maybe in an effort to give their customers the maximum powder thrills (that they have paid for) P2P guides are pushing the groups fitness limits a bit.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

DB, I'm not doubting his qualifications (and it may very likely not have been him taking the group). Please don't think I don't appreciate the job of guides either, but surely if the trip/s is/are sold as learning experiences, and the peeps on them are not fit (presumably you'd see that and/or check as I do for LG) and have no previous experience off piste you tailor the trip to that level. For 4 to drop out from 7 is too high. Also - are they really looking for max powder thrills? maybe they actaully signed up to learn. this is how he describes peeps' required skills for the trip in question:
1). Introduction to off piste - Strong & Competent on red/black slopes, you
are able to make short radius turns with good control of speed and you're ready to make your first steps into the off piste. (you may have skied small amounts of off piste before but need to refresh)

This is not a very high level of skiing and first steps are just that!

It seems to me that this is the same cricitism often levelled at the ESF and other large ski schools - "they didn't look after the slow ones, they didn't seem interested, they seemed to want to amuse themselves"

Whether you're a guide or instructor (or indeed both), you should always run your group to the level of the weakest skier.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

easiski,

It wasn't Graham taking Kramer's group - it was a guide who's name I don't recognize who may of just been another guide to help out during the busy Feb holidays. I do know that one of Grahams guides was injured this season (not while skiing), rather than let his customers down perhaps he brought in another guide.

Graham trys to group people of smiliar abilities together - something I'm unsure you would get if you turned up at one of the local St Anton ski schools for off-piste instruction. He keeps a record of people's abilities and aims to put them in the right group when they return. His team sits together every morning and analyses the weather picking the right terrain for each group. When I skied the Silvrettas with him last April he had two groups, technically there wasn't much difference - fitness levels were what separated the groups. He aims to keep the difference between the strong and weak skiers in the group to a minimum so that weak aren't struggling and the strong aren't waiting around.

P2P isn't like ESF, it's more similar to you - amongst other things it's a small British led ski instruction company catering for the specific needs of a significant number of British skiers.

Skiing with P2P always pushes the limits a little, but in a good way so that further development is experienced each year.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

richmond, why is that as high as you are likely to get? Aren't you limiting yourself?

After all it is free

richmond, we spent a day with Graham a few years back and had absolutely no complaints. We did a warm-up run initially I think, then went on to some fairly easy off-piste so that Graham could assess our abilities. Then it was off to the Valluga Smile

Not been back to St Anton since, but I'll definitely try and get another couple of days in with Graham when I go next.

DB, I guess that I've had a bit more time to think about what went wrong, my initial reaction was to take all the blame myself, and although I still feel that it was mostly my problem, I also think that it could have been handled a lot better, especially as I've skied harder slopes both before and since. You're right that it wasn't Graham taking my group on any occasion. I also think that easiski makes a good point that people probably shouldn't drop out of a group on a reasonably regular basis, as myself and others have witnessed on more than one occassion.

Also I think that you and alan empty are probably at a higher standard of off-piste skiing than I am, and if you're competent I'm sure that P2P are very good, but I'm not so sure that they've offered quite such a good service for less experienced skiers, IMO.

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richmond, you're nobbut a lad! Laughing

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easiski, I like to think of myself as approaching my prime.

Just wait 'til you're 53, you really will be in a prime then wink

You know it makes sense.

I don't know this outfit but here are a few things I would do.

Get fit and then get fitter. It will be tough in anything bar great snow and all your mistakes wil be amplified.
Make sure you get the warm-up run although I can't see any guide not wanting to know what his group are upto
and 'suggest' when you need to stop for refreshments as these people are fitter than a butcher's dog and their technique eats up
what you struggle on. Try not to ski with differing age groups as the youngest ski longer..

If richmond's group make up the entire number then you should be able to dove-tail everything for yourselves.

Swop up on a few routes and know what they entail. I've only seen the Valluga from the lift but think its the top bit that has a rock band exposure which needs care otherwise its a big bowl.

Oh, and get fit...!!! Laughing

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Getting fit definitely has a part to play. Embarassed

A snowHead

Be very wary of Scandi's in the group.....because they are likely to be very good and very fast....

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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I started with PistetoPowder four years ago in a level one group. Yes it was challenging and tiring, digging yourself out of the snow isn't easy. The guide waited for his customers, helped them find skis, gave them excellent instruction but yes people who weren't so fit dropped out. The next day they came back though, after a good nights sleep and giving the apres ski a break they then put in a full day. At the start of the week it was carnage, we could barely put in a powder turn. Virtually every descent had us looking for someone's skis. By the end of the week we had major breakthroughs and were linking quite a few turns.

The following year I booked up again and met many of the same people. By then we were Level 2, we knew the score. We knew that the fitness had to be there - it's a group and if our fitness was not there then we would be letting the group down. We were skiing one of the best off-piste ski areas in the world, we knew traversing away from the slopes to get to the best powder was par for the course. You don't go to a place like St Anton and pay good money to potter about at the side of the piste in tracked out powder.

Last year I went to the Silverettas and skied terrain (level 3) I never thought would be possible for me (having started skiing late in life). If you're are thinking it's only for the super fit then consider that there were people of all ages and sexes, even pensioners in one of the P2P Silvretta groups.

I know it's a group, if I want complete control over what the guide does then I should pay for a private lesson (just as you would with a piste instructor). This isn't piste instruction where if the group is slow you can just do a few runs less and the lift will always be nearby. Each route is carefully planned in the morning taking into account the weather, terrain and groups fitness/ability to minimize the risk yet maximize the fun and learning experience. If the route was planned for unfit people, groups who had trained properly would be finsinhed at 15:00 and people would probably be complaining (perhaps on here) that they weren't getting a full days skiing. On top of that if the route is planned for a particular group and then someone joins who is selected to match the ability of the group but turns out to be slower due to a problem (fitness or otherwise) then it's a lot more difficult to deal with out in the backcountry than doing wedge turns on Piste No 26a.

For me Piste to Powder did what it said on the tin. Every year it's a challenge (both in fitness terms and technique) but I'm now skiing terrain that many of my Austrian friends won't ski. The very same Austrians who found my skiing & technique (read lack of) amusing 6 years ago are now remarkably humble. Off-piste skiing is an achievement. Piste to Powder make it much easier but nobody said it was going to be a walk in the park. We're skiers for Christ sakes not snowboarders wink

.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

By the way, Graham Austick is aware of this thread but it might be sometime before he replies as he is working i.e. scrubbing decks on the ski and sail trip in Norway till mid April, then off to the Otztal Mountains.

Here is some customer feed back from this years Silvretta trip ...... (Pics on his site http://www.skimountaineering.com/index2.htm )

"Thanks again for an awesome week in the Silvrettas. Definitely the best week's skiing I've experienced. Conditions were fantastic and thanks to you for the skill and enthusiasm to make the most of them. I'm now hugely sold on touring as the best way to see and ski the mountains so I'm sure we'll ski together again.

Can't wait for next time.."
Jim
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"Just quick email to say thanks for an awesome week. Couldn't have asked for more. The Touring was a great experience, superb conditions and excellent guiding from Tom and yourself made it the best week I've had in the mountains. Please pass on my thanks to Tom. Looking forward to skiing more of the world with you guys over the next few years! Will be in touch about Norway next year!
All the best, "
Ross
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I’m sure it was obvious to you how much we all enjoyed last weeks expedition but I just thought I’d say once again thanks for a great week and the opportunity to do so much each day - it’s also good to see some of the photos on the website as well!
Thanks once again, we’re all mad for more!
Rohan.

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Thanks for all the input, chaps. Just for the record, we shall be a private group, which I hope will make life a bit easier. I had realised that getting fit might be a good idea; I have thought about it a lot, and I shall continue thinking about it very hard indeed until next February. Presumably if we decide to spend half the morning in a cafe, we can (I'm not planning to mind you, at £285/day!).

P to P's website makes it clear that they offer tuition to beginners like us, and my conversations with Ruth, their (extremely helpful) manager, confirm this. It sounds as though they're well used to beginners.

We're only having a couple of days' off piste tuition. We need some time on the hol to warm up (the old lady and I probably won't have skied for a year) and to relax and do a bit of gentle skiing, and I doubt that any of us could mange much more than a couple of days (the kids may not have the stamina for more and the old lady and I certainly haven't!).

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

DB, sounds like he'd be better off getting off that deck and focusing on some of the issues raised about his company, it takes far more effort to rectify a bad repuation than to get one. I'd not recommend him to anyone based on what I've heard.

After all it is free

Rich,

Graham is on a boat or ski touring, looking after customers i.e. running his business. Probably hasn't even got an internet connection. P2P has had a lot of glowing reports here on snowheads. Krammer is the only one to report a problem with them, he even still admits the problem was mostly his.

it seems that there are differing views, re-reading this thread it appears the company has many happy customers, but also Kramer points out either some areas they need to improve on, or they need to be turning away off piste beginners or the less fit, some points made by Kramer appear to cover more than just himself, ie

"By the end of the day, out of an original group size of seven, there were only three of us left,"

"and reported that again some skiers left the group during the day, one lady in floods of tears, because she felt that the guide had over stretched her abilities and confidence"

To be fair he also states "My friends who stayed had a great day"

regards,

Greg

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

On the basis I what I have just read in this thread...I'd contact them, if I was going to the area. Its always an issue with levels on these things and all you can ask for is a condusive group. The individual has a responsibilty here as well and what you put in will surely come out the other side with dividends, I think.

oh, and get fit..!!! and then it is someone else's problem being last..and there ain't no worse place than being last all the time because you never get time to catch your breath before you're off again altho'I not saying that guides thrash their clients, but they might have to push them a little.

I would give someone who devotes their lifetime to getting these skills and loves the environment, the benefit of the doubt as far as this thread goes.

Help!!

pistetopowder.co St Anton

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