 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm staggered by this stat... so far this season 17 people have been killed in on piste accidents in Austria alone - http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/news/story.asp?intStoryID=6183. Add France, Italy, Switzerland etc and you're looking at carnage. If they all died in the same air accident it would be on all front pages. We're only approaching half way through the season!
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 23-01-09 14:33; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This is the equally shocking stat: Austrian authorities predict 5,500 serious head injuries on the slopes this season, and Swiss resorts report about 150 cases every day.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What has this got to do with scary helmets, Swiller?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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What did the other 16 die of? And are we going to support a ban on these 'new carving skis' since they appear to be the root of the problem?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| David Goldfish wrote: |
| What has this got to do with scary helmets, Swiller? |
RTFA. It has precipitated the indroduction of helmet legislation.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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You mean scary helmet legislation, or helmet legislation?
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Lizzard, I'm assuming they hit something or something hit them.
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Quote:, Before now, helmet use has been mandatory only in some Italian resorts....
Is that right? I've never heard that before - which resorts 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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They could have died of heart attacks, or allergic reactions to something
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Bode Swiller, those stats are a lot a lot a lot higher than one might intuitively expect, aren't they...
5500 "serious" head injuries.
Bloody hell.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| David Goldfish wrote: |
| You mean scary helmet legislation, or helmet legislation? |
I have changed the title for more impact and to please you.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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paulio, I assume serious means serious enough to require urgent medical attention!
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| David Goldfish wrote: |
| ... or allergic reactions to something |
Like collision with hard objects.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bode Swiller, why? The only on-piste deaths I've had any dealings with were both heart attacks.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| David Goldfish wrote: |
| ... or allergic reactions to something |
Like collision with hard objects. |
Doctor: "And what seems to be the problem"
Goldsmith: "I appear to have a skilift pylon sticking out of my forehead"
Doctor: "You are clearly allergic to pylons"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bode Swiller, yeah, exactly. That would be my interpretation of 'serious'. I wonder what percentage of 'serious' are 'permanent'... 
I'm thinking this through, and there are a LOT of ski resorts in Austria, and there are a lot of days in the season. So per resort per day the number might look a bit less shocking. It looks just wrong though. That's a massive number when all totted up.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Before we all die of hysteria or head explosions, let's go to an outstanding website controlled by a doctor who studies epidemiology:
www.ski-injury.com
http://www.ski-injury.com/prevention/helmet
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| So the real issue is that of risk calculation - i.e. how likely is a head injury to occur? It would appear to be actually very low. This is the precise reason that cycle helmets have not been made compulsory in the UK - yes, they may reduce injuries but the absolute risk of getting one in the first place is relatively small and not great enough to warrant a mandatory law. |
| Quote: |
| So, to conclude, helmets are a good idea and will protect you against many of the common injuries that the head is susceptible too. They are especially important for children, who are at highest risk of snow sport injury. In addition, there is no evidence to date that helmets predispose the wearer to a higher risk of neck injury or cause injury to others. However, it must be remembered that wearing a helmet will not protect you if you have a high speed impact - so go careful, especially if there are trees near the pistes you're on. |
Valuable data on that site, to back up those points. Thanks to stoatsbrother, another skiing doctor, for bringing it to our attention again.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Boredsurfing, Ahhh OK thanks! I read it to mean that some Italian resorts require all skiers to wear helmets. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Lizzard, Heart attacks are very common on the mountain (I've seen a few and attended the scene). A heart attack isn't an accident though (if you ignore 50 years of smoking, sitting, pies & chips). I suspect that 17 number refers to impact type of damage.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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17 dead out of (and I'm guessing the figure here) 100,000 visitors per week is very little. I think crossing the street is statistically more dangerous...
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| David Goldfish wrote: |
Before we all die of hysteria or head explosions, let's go to an outstanding website controlled by a doctor who studies epidemiology:
www.ski-injury.com
http://www.ski-injury.com/prevention/helmet
| Quote: |
| So the real issue is that of risk calculation - i.e. how likely is a head injury to occur? It would appear to be actually very low. This is the precise reason that cycle helmets have not been made compulsory in the UK - yes, they may reduce injuries but the absolute risk of getting one in the first place is relatively small and not great enough to warrant a mandatory law. |
| Quote: |
| So, to conclude, helmets are a good idea and will protect you against many of the common injuries that the head is susceptible too. They are especially important for children, who are at highest risk of snow sport injury. In addition, there is no evidence to date that helmets predispose the wearer to a higher risk of neck injury or cause injury to others. However, it must be remembered that wearing a helmet will not protect you if you have a high speed impact - so go careful, especially if there are trees near the pistes you're on. |
Valuable data on that site, to back up those points. Thanks to stoatsbrother, another skiing doctor, for bringing it to our attention again. |
So, the Austrians predict 5,500 serious cases this season, the Swiss get 150 per day (that's another 10,000+), we could assume that Italy and France get roughly the same and then there's Spain, Andorra, Bulgaria etc. For argument's sake let's call it 30,000 serious head injuries. If that were true, yer ski injury man must be missing some data.
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At this juncture I'd just point out (as an SCGB member) that I did contact the Club about the article which Swiller is quoting from. I was a little concerned that it may be presenting statistics (which I'm sure have been obtained from convincing sources) which need counter-balancing with data from scientific publications.
Ski injury statistics are gathered in long-term research exercises, published in recognised journals, after 'peer review' by independent scientists.
I'm not sure of the sources of the SCGB data, but this will no doubt be disclosed in due course. These are the key paragraphs of the SCGB article:
| Quote: |
| Mrs Christandl is the 17th skier to die in an accident on the piste in Austria this season, and the authorities are under increasing pressure to extend the law to cover snow-sports enthusiasts of all ages. |
| Quote: |
| Austrian authorities predict 5,500 serious head injuries on the slopes this season, and Swiss resorts report about 150 cases every day. Josef Schmid, of the Austrian skiing federation, supports making helmets compulsory for all skiers. |
These are very surprising statistics indeed, and it's important to know where they come from.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bode Swiller, well yer man is actually based in Scotland - so finding enough snow to gather speed, and a tree to hit may be a challenge...
Having said which - having seen the Austrians emerge from Lunch and from Apres Ski, I am inclined to believe this report...
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David Goldsmith, your skiing and environmental risk avoidance strategy looks sounder by the day 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, well yer man is actually based in Scotland... |
where they start life with head injuries of course...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| ... having seen the Austrians emerge from Lunch and from Apres Ski, I am inclined to believe this report... |
What did you see when they emerged from lunch and apres-ski?
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| David Goldfish wrote: |
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| ... having seen the Austrians emerge from Lunch and from Apres Ski, I am inclined to believe this report... |
What did you see when they emerged from lunch and apres-ski? |
signs of intoxication yer honour...
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You know it makes sense.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| This is the equally shocking stat: Austrian authorities predict 5,500 serious head injuries on the slopes this season, and Swiss resorts report about 150 cases every day. |
Ah, now there's lies, damn lies, and shoddy journalism...
From http://uk.news.yahoo.com/5/20090122/tuk-sledge-crash-briton-is-critical-45dbed5.html :
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This season in Austria there will be at least 55,000 skiing and sledging injuries and 10% of the victims will suffer head inuries, the Austrian traffic safety committee said.
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Now, leaving aside whether the majority of sledging injuries happen in ski resorts rather than on any random piece of hillside, this just says that there will be around 5500 head injuries - not "serious" head injuries, which is surely a subset. Without details of whether this is any injury, or just those presenting for medical treatment, it's impossible to say which it is.
By comparison, the stats that are publicly available, such as http://www.kfv.at/fileadmin/webcontent/Publikationen_englisch/IDB/IDB-Bericht_FINAL_Screen.pdf show that skiing injuries (figure 30, page 26) are usually to the arms and legs, with only 7% being to the head, so the idea that 10% of the total injuries will be "serious head injuries" is clearly rubbish. Someone suffering a face plant may need treatment for cuts and bruises, but that's not a serious head injury. Is a broken nose a serious head injury? If so, there are many rugby players who will disagree, since they've had it happen and played on immediately afterwards.
Still, is it better to be in an accident while wearing a helmet than to be in one without a helmet? Probably - I'm sure you can find many arguments on both sides if you know where to look 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Swiller, why did you change the title of this thread? You've monkeyed my opening posts.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| David Goldfish wrote: |
| Swiller, why did you change the title of this thread? You've monkeyed my opening posts. |
All your own fault I'm afraid... you made me look at it again and I decided that it needed to be changed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ousekjarr, that sounds more realistic. Think I'll remove my helmet now.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bode Swiller, I'd contact a Mohel for that if I were you.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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17 killed but 3 million so far have survived 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
17 dead out of (and I'm guessing the figure here) 100,000 visitors per week is very little. I think crossing the street is statistically more dangerous..
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I doubt very much whether crossing the street is "statistically" more dangerous. The insurance industry is pretty competitive (probably almost a perfect market) and one which is pretty good at assessing risk. An insurance policy which pays out money if you get knocked down crossing the street is a whole heap cheaper than one which will pay to mend you (or pick up the pieces) if you are injured on the piste.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| ..........Having said which - having seen the Austrians emerge from Lunch and from Apres Ski, I am inclined to believe this report... |
Yup. Downhill of the Krazy Kangaruh can be a very unhealthy place to be.
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I can recommend skiing with the owner of the Krazy Kangaruh, uphill of his tavern, pre-9am. He's great company and doesn't wear a helmet.
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David Goldsmith, truly? When have you done that?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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For France (2006-7) from ENSA (figures for ski domains only):
8.5 million skiers
140,000 reported accidents, 2% head injuries (2,800), 98 accidents were life threatening
12 on piste deaths
10 off piste deaths
1/3 of deaths due to avalanche
6 deaths due to collisions with obstacles
1 due to collision between users
90% of under 12s wear helmets
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From sky news...
"Ambulance surgeon Christian Kaulfersch of Schladming hospital said: "Crashes at 30mph are like a fall straight onto concrete from the second floor."
ouch
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