 Poster: A snowHead
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Heading up to Kitzbuhel during half term. Going with a friend and his family, and skiing with expert skiers! So, how's the off piste/black pistes/snow (how bad is it at the low altitude)/variety/crowds... pretty much overall challenge and variety?
Just say anything that I might find useful lol.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If they are really expert skiers I don't think Kitzbuhel is renowned for its difficult skiing. Is that useful at this stage after you've booked? 
Something really useful and I am eternally grateful to Richmond for pointing out, is that the ski shop at the base of the Hahnenkammbahn does great ski/boot storage lockers. Saves you having to lug them all over town each day. Unless you're staying next to the lift in which case this isn't particularly useful.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We're staying at the base lol. Supposedly, it's the closest hotel on the mountain to the slopes 
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| skiking4 wrote: |
Heading up to Kitzbuhel during half term. Going with a friend and his family, and skiing with expert skiers! So, how's the off piste/black pistes/snow (how bad is it at the low altitude)/variety/crowds... pretty much overall challenge and variety?
Just say anything that I might find useful lol. |
Went in Feb for a stag weekend, found most of the pistes over-graded - e.g. the black was really a darkish red..
Doens't apply to the hahenkahm run, that was seriously scary (looked and went other way!)
Off-Piste didn't do much. Busy on a sunny sunday.
Found that taking the 3s and skiing that bit was better than the main bit.
If any boarders they should go to the horn...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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By looking on the trail map, I can't find the horn lol.
Does the Hahnenkamm run exceed about 40 degrees? Because that's what I consider to be steep.
And, Bertie Bassett, you said "Found that taking the 3s and skiing that bit was better than the main bit."
What's the 3s?
Is there enough variety to not be bored by the end of 6 or 7 days of skiing?
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I'm going to Kitzbuhel on the 1st Feb, never been there or the Austrian alps, always been to France.
Anyone know of any good off piste routes or areas that are good to free ski?
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skiking4, You're obviously not looking very hard - look to the bottom left of the piste map, and there's an entirely separate section called Kitzbuhler horn. This is service via a different base lift from the main ski are, and may require a walk/bus/taxi across to the base lift. I haven't done it myself but my bud who stayed for the monday went there and said more open pistes and less uphill bits = better for a boarder. Plus has half-pipe and boarder cross and a decent apres scene.
The 3s is marked in a LARGE 3s on my 2007/08 lift map - it's the main linking lift between the Pengelstein section and the section above Jochberg. Officially it's lift D9 but more usually referred to as the 3s. We found the section above Jochberg to have better snow, better skiing and less traffic than the main hill. F8 is the only drag lift needed to get back from this sector, but we didn't have too many issues with it even on a board!
Sorry I forgot my protractor when I was looking at the hahnenkahm bit  but like most race slopes it gets seriously injected with water and thus is very very icy...
Sparkzter Austria has a habit of 'itineraries' or ski-routes which are ungroomed slopes, which are avvy protected but not patrolled officially - although I have seen piste patrol sweeping up in Arlberg on one at close of play. These are usually marked on the maps with a dotted line. There are some in Kitz - 34 and 33 from the top of pengelstein are meant to be good (didn't try them ourselves!) . There's also a 'cat-skiing area' just up from the horn...
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I went to Kitz last season. For a skier like me (experienced but aging and timid) it was great. I didn't even mind the black runs except number 38 (Direttissima) which made me feel decidedly wobbly. When I was there (March 0 there was no snow at resort level but once you got to the top of the Hahnemkamm bubble it was plentiful. The actual Hahnenkamm run itself was kept open with artificial snow but it was rather slushy...
The ski area is fine for a week for someone like me, but even if you cover it all in a couple of days, there's reasonably easy access to Westendorf and the Ski Welt area...
No idea about off-piste I'm afraid as I didn't do any, nor did I go to the Horn as it was a bus ride across town to get to the lift. Apparently there are only a handful of easy runs once you get up there and it's mostly boarders...
Have a great time and if you're the type of person that likes dancing on tables singing cheesy Euro-pop, the Londoner pub is for you...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Don't listen to all the stuff people tell you about Kitz not having any decent skiing! Next to St. Anton it's one of my favourite pastures, and generally one hell of a lot less crowded than St. A. Agreed that the pistes can seem a bit tame but for off piste the area around the Steinbergkogel/Ehrenbachgraben is excellent. Try the off piste run down to Jochberg from the top of Steinbergkogel. Fantastic. And now they have connected up the Pass Thurn area via a gondola between Pengelstein and Wurzhöhe the skiable area just keeps on getting better!
On a powder day the valley run down to Kirchberg is really nice as well. Ditto for the valley run down to Aschau, but needs a bus to get back again Thousands of variants to choose from!
Enjoy
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expert --> Diretissima, off-piste --> Bichlalm
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It doesn't look big at all, like the size of a large North American resort. This is just by observing the trail map and looking at it on Google Earth. 3500 vertical isn't too big for a european resort. Is it as small as I think?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I wouldn't have said small, but a confident skier would easily cover all terrain in a week. I think we skied all the runs except those on the Horn and those that were closed due to lack of snow...
Like I said though, you can access Ski Welt via the lift to Westendorf at Aschau. There's plenty more to keep anyone entertained there...
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You know it makes sense.
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No, I'm not including the 3S Bahn. But I just have one last question:
Will I enjoy the resort if I have only skied the US, mostly east coast (only Squaw and Heavenly out west)?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skiking4, well definitely include the 3S bahn - its all on the lift pass. I've never skied the US so I couldn't tell you. Only way to find out is to go! We like it and I think most others do (Whitegold here doesn't!)
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Poster: A snowHead
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I should have said that the sunday was "one of my top 5 ever skiing days" despite the 3 hours kip, the fat hangover and the jaegerbomb, cocaine and stripper bill from the night before 
Ok so I might have made a bit of that up...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skiking4 wrote: |
No, I'm not including the 3S Bahn. But I just have one last question:
Will I enjoy the resort if I have only skied the US, mostly east coast (only Squaw and Heavenly out west)? |
You will enjoy it! If nothing else the atmosphere of the place is worth the experience. And like I said, there are plenty of steeps and deeps to keep you happy!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nice... sounding, as long as there is snow, that it's going to be fun!
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There will be snow up top and in the horn, so don't worry too much about that, the only time it's annoying is if you're used to skiing to your hotel door, which believe me you won't be doing...
The horn had the better snow when i was there without having to travel far on multiple lifts, but it is easy for anyone who's skied more than 2 weeks. - suggest it for your first day to ease out any cobwebs.
over the 3S ilft it's good snow too, but can take a while to get all the way there. I found very few difficult runs in Kitz that made me just go a different route (except when the snow was real bad), only annoyance and slight problem was the narrow runs between lifts that were busy as hell as everyone tried to get to the higher better snow. Once there most runs are quite wide so you could get most down them, blacks included. (or at least the one's i skied down)
Of course the Hahnenkamm could torment you for life...tried most of it and blamed the poor snow at the steepest bits for my sudden total lack of ski ability and brown trousers...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Everyone is saying that the pistes are very easy (besides the Hahnenkamm-- I believe the Mausefalle part is very challenging!) but what about the itenaries and off piste? There's gotta be some challenge here!
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skiking4, The Mausefalle is only about 50 metres! I did the streif piste the week after the race, iced up and everything. It was tough, a run that I got down rather than skied! I found Kitz quite challenging ............. at night A great place for partying. Skiing was ok would not think of putting it on my must do again resorts for a while.
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Kitzbuhel is not a resort I would consider skiing now as it has no challenging skiing at all. The blacks would be graded red at best at other resorts. I haven't skied there since I started skiing a lot off piste, 25 years ago, so I have no idea if there might be any good off piste - but I would be surprised if there were anything much you could call steep.
The true line of the Downhill Hannenkamm Racetrack has a few extremely steep sections when you consider they take it straight (find the start hut and try skiing the top and as much of the rest as you can identify) plus some sections quite flat. However much of the steeper stuff, like the start and near the finish, is off piste except near race days and is not included in the Hannenkamm piste.
It is low, and there is not a very large vertical, but do not simply compare with France because the further East you go the lower the snowline. However, especially if you include the linked areas and ski Welt there is a big area. It is very scenic and has a pretty village with a mediaeval centre with town gate.
Sorry not to have better news for you. It is a pity your friends didn't enquire about the skiing before booking.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Steilhang, It is all relative, surely. What you and I consider difficult may be tamer to those of greater ability and wanting a challenge.
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snowball, genau, and the new link between Brixen and Westendorf is a great new resource.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Steilhang, I haven't skied Kitzbuhel for about 20 years, but my very old edition of the Good Ski Guide does agree with me and notes that good skiers might miss the lack of any challenging skiing.
I was talking about the pistes, above, but I ski much better now than I did then and almost entirely off piste with friends, looking for the steep and deep. For that, of course, we mostly need a guide.
I don't think I want to take up a whole week of my limited skiing time going there. However, perhaps one day I might do a tour around with a car and stop off for a couple of days.
So, what is the off-piste like? Where in the area would you suggest I try (I have a piste map from the web). Under the Brixen lift through the trees looks possible from the map.
I am finding it hard now to find resorts with enough challenge but I know from experience that if you have a guide who knows an area well there can be surprisingly good stuff hidden away in even tiny, family resorts.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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snowball, sorry if that came across a bit harsh! There is plenty of steep stuff around the area of Steinbergkogel heading back down into the Ehrenbachgraben. Particularly the run leading under the chair from Steinbergkogel back down to Ehrenbachgraben is steep and often closed due to avalanche danger. There are some really great off piste runs from the top there heading down to the valley in Jochberg, although not amazingly steep they are really fun to do! Just depends on the snow. Also the off piste run down to the other side of the area from Pengelstein to Aschau is fantastic on a good day. But if couloir skiing is what you're after then this is not the place for you!
Now that the Pass Thurn area is connected in to Kitzbühel, and the Westendorf area is also (sort of) connected up the skiable area is really enormous!These days I either ski St.Anton or Kitz or if I don't have a lot of time I just head down to Garmisch-Zugspitze for half a day! I find that skiing Kitz is generally more enjoyable than St.A. Main reason being that it is MUCH less crowded. But St.A does offer a few gems that Kitz can't match, like the couloirs off the top of Schindler
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Steilhang, yes, those couloirs of theSchindler Spitze are good, especially the left end one which you access by doubling-back along under the lift after you get off, and go down with the big rock wall on your left.
As for crowds - once you go off piste you may not see anyone at all till you get to the bottom.
At Kitzbuhel, I don't remember the runs being steep where you mention, but I'm sure they would be fine for most intermediates. For someone even near expert, though, such as skiking4 suggests, expecting double black diamond equivalents, I still reckon may be disappointed. Unless the off piste is good, which I don't really know.
I'd probably enjoy a few days skiing around there just for the scenery -I'm sure we could find some fresh tracks even long after the last snow if we walked a bit. But only having 3 weeks per year I try to get the most I can out of each week.
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You know it makes sense.
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snowball,
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especially the left end one which you access by doubling-back along under the lift after you get off, and go down with the big rock wall on your left.
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Yes I like that one as well, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily any steeper than the run off Steinbergkogel that I mentioned before. It's just a lot narrower! I was severely put off St. A last season when I went for a day and found the off piste effectively un-skiable, (frozen wind ridged tracked out breaking crud), so had to stick to the pistes! There were so many people skiing completely out of control that I was seriously frightened by the experience. The run from Ulmer Hütte to Alpe Rauz was a nightmare! I retired to the Albona for the rest of the day (even found a small amount of untracked  )
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Steilhang wrote: |
| but I wouldn't say it's necessarily any steeper than the run off Steinbergkogel that I mentioned before. |
Oh, Ok, I obviously never discovered that - the one I remember was a red. Its a long time ago.
Your St Anton experience sounds nasty. The only time in like conditions I've been there, a guide did find us some first tracks in compacted old north facing snow - partly just down the valley, outside the St A circuit - but it was a matter of making do.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Conditions looking great!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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TR coming soon.
But for now:
2 ft of snow the day before arrival, 3 ft of snow on Tuesday, a couple of inches on Friday.
Hahnenkamm run: conditions play a huge part in this. It's not one of those super steep runs but it just keeps coming at you with long 30+ degree drops.
Pistes: What you guys said. Easy. Diressitima is the only decent black piste IMO (the bottom is amazing).
Off piste: The couloirs to the left of C1 are amazing. Steep 40+ degree couloirs that are barely skied. The big bowl to the right of C7 is also very good. The big ditch in the middle offers some 40+ degree turns up top. The Barenbodkel (however u spell it) has some nice off piste opportunities. The many tree lined chutes to skiers left of the chair are some more 40+ degree turns while also being gladed in spots. But if you want GNARLY, then you'll have to head under the Hahnenkammbahn gondola lift, which has many different entries, all leading into a high 40 degree narrow couloir. There's not tons of gnarly, but enough for me.
Overall, very pleased with the trip and TR with pics might be coming soon (I'll see if I can make time to do so).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skiking4, Thanks for the report, I look forward to the pics
Only thing im a little confused about as an off-piste noob: Is skiing 40+ degree couloirs really advisable at avy risk 3/4?
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skiking4, glad you had a great time. I definitely want to go back to Kitzbühel one day...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Markus wrote: |
skiking4, Thanks for the report, I look forward to the pics
Only thing im a little confused about as an off-piste noob: Is skiing 40+ degree couloirs really advisable at avy risk 3/4? |
No, I was actually carelessly unaware of the avvy risk.
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skiking4, did you measure those angles? They sound a little steep to me...but I've never been there so...pics would help...(I have seen the site you link to so I know you know someone who estimates gradients) 
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I think these slope angles are reasonable. Last year, I skied Mott Canyon @ Heavenly, CA/NV. That's 38 degrees on average for a good 800 hundred vertical. Now, a few stuff off piste I had skied at Kitz were definitely steeper. The Hahnenkammbahn couloir probably definitely hit 50, as you could touch the slope with an outstretched hand it looked like. The couloir I skied off Steinbergkogel I think are about 45 degrees at the headwall before flattening, but it stays at 40+ degrees a little less than half the length. It then mellows to about 25-35 degrees for the rest before ending on the piste. The Barenbodkogel glades are about 40-45 at their headwalls for about, again, a little less than half the chute, and then "flattening" to 35 degrees and ending on the piste. The bowlish kind of thing that is in the bowl to the right of the C7 lift is rocky 40-45 degree steeps, but are only very few hundred vertical before ending in this ditch sort of thing which is fun, but a lot more skied than the upper part.
I did not measure, but I assume, and I tend to guess right or only overestimate by a degrees or so. So, therefore, these are subjective opinions. And please note: these are lines that are rarely skied, but visible from the piste or lift. In the couloir off Steinbergkogel, my friend fell and lots of snow tumbled to the bottom of the slope. Please be careful out there.
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