 Poster: A snowHead
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There are several thread reporting accidents and injuries caused by collisions.
My perception is that it is more dangerous than even a few years ago. It seems there isnt a day on the pistes goes by without witnessing someone being clattered into. I wondered if this is just anecdotal or are there any facts statistics to back this up?
It's probably just the onset of old age (memory lapses etc) but I cannot remember this being as bad in the past.
Can this to be down to increased numbers, body armour and helmets making people feel invulnerable, poor training, bad piste etiquette or just plain bad manners?
It appears that there are an ever increasing number of people just willing to throw themselves down a mountain with little consideration to the risks they pose to others and themselves.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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All of the above plus snowboarders whose trajectory is more erratic than skiers and who travel with a large blind spot.
I figure if I ski faster than anyone else on the hill I won't be hit from behind and I can take care to avoid the people in front of me. Better yet stick to the off-piste. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yes! I think there are several reasons: The pistes are more crowded. People ski faster on modern skis. People tend to use more space on the piste on carvers than they used to on straights. Snowboarders do the same. Maybe people think they are invulnerable in armour, not sure.
Skiing with my seven year old over Christmas was a terrifying experience. I've more or less decided to stop skiing during school holidays, too dangerous! For myself I just stick to off piste these days, much safer 
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1. Lack of Technique. i.e Travelling too fast for their skill level.
2. Drink. The number of people i see having a beer a 10.30am is amazing
3. Helmets/body armour. People think they are invincable.
4. Ipod's. Skiers i their own 'world' who cannot hear others around them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Personally, I think ski resorts were busier in the 80s/early 90s, but that might be because I went on school trips then mostly to France. I've only been to France once since which was VDI in Jan 2000 and it was pretty empty except for the 'Verte' piste down to La Daille at the end of the day. When it comes to busy/dangerous slopes I've never seen anything abroad to compare with Tamworth Snowdome!
But I do agree with the point about technique and travelling too fast for their ability level. Over the past 3 seasons I've met a few people who haven't been skiing long and who didn't mind what colour piste marker, but whose control was often questionable. One guy in particular who had only had lessons in the UK on indoor slopes and preferred not to 'waste' his holiday with tuition...
Obviously the other factor is snowboarders. Some resorts are almost half and half now and they add a different dimension to piste usage and have a different view of the slope above and below them from skiers. However I have noticed snowboarders rarely travel as fast as skiers and are less likely to be out of control, but one thing they do which can be construed as dangerous is sitting in big groups at the side of the piste effectively narrowing the skiable area...
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| However I have noticed snowboarders rarely travel as fast as skiers and are less likely to be out of control, but one thing they do which can be construed as dangerous is sitting in big groups at the side of the piste effectively narrowing the skiable area... |
Surely you mean in the middle of the piste, under a blind crest, so as to be totally invisible from above.
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I really think that in the case of skiers, that modern equipment has a lot to do with it, as said previously. The ability to ski faster at a lower skill level has certainly contributed. The mix of snowboarders and skiers, doesn't help either, as their trajectories down the hill are very different.
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maybe it is how people slide, faster and taking up more of the piste, in particular skiers always seem to be in big groups these days clogging up the piste, especially at intersections, and they seam to take up more room because they always seem to be pointing with there sticks which way to go next; obviously at altitude their voice does not work well enough to say 'this way chaps' 
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Yep,
Greater affluence (until this year any way), has led to more people on the slopes. It is easier and quicker to use the more modern types of equipment, consequently people are getting onto the piste quicker,
and skiing faster before they have developed the technique or ability to ski/board safely and in control. There seems to be a larger proportion of the skiing/boarding population that have failed to understand or learn the basic curtosey and rules of the piste. Body armour/Helmet do generate a false sense of security (I'm guilty of this one), which means that you feel less vulnrable. Piste maintenance is of a higher standard now, allowing for big/wide/fast pistes. And generally people on the piste are lkike people in the street, generally less considerate, than in previous years.
Rgds
Grumpy old Sod....
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all very valid points i'm sure (as i'm assuming the people who have posted have experience of the events referred to.) but the snowboarder bashing is becoming a bit tedious. stupid comes in skier-flavour too, you know!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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sherlock235, I'm sure that there are statistics somewhere to tell what the percentages are of incidents involving whatever type of equipment, whether it be snowboard or ski. I've never seen it, but the perception amongst skiers is that snowboarders are involved in a disproportionate amount. I'd be happily proved wrong.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If you can't ski the slope you are skiing on 2metre+ straight ski's, then you shouldn't be allowed on it on fat ski's.
If you can't slide down the slope without holding a proper heel and toe edge, or only by leaf turning, then you shouldn't be off the nursery slopes.
Advancements in technology have meant anyone with a weeks experience and some balls thinks they are Tanner Hall or Shaun White. I blame the Nintendo Wii generation.
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| Quote: |
However I have noticed snowboarders rarely travel as fast as skiers and are less likely to be out of control
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You having a laugh? I've just got back from a week on the slopes and the amount of times you see snowboarders flipping over for no apparent reason is ridduculous. They seem to spend most of their time going down on their heelside with very little control and when I did lessons and someone was taken out it was invariably by a snowboarder. The most serious accident I've ever seen was caused by a boarder and it wasn't pretty.
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You know it makes sense.
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Seems less icy and crowded than it was when I was a kid, with snowmaking facillities there seem to be less bottlenecks around worn spots where everyone's squished into a small area and I seem to see far less bloodwagons than I remember.
Maybe it's because I don't go in peak half term weeks? Maybe all the bloodwagons are at the trauma park? Boots and bindings have improved so less leg fractures?
I don't think I've ever seen a fight, either. I'm clearly doing something wrong. (Ed: spelling for a start)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Rightly or wrongly I've always had the impression that boarders have a much more painful first 3 days than skiers, but after that they can get by with less technique than skiers to tackle the same slope - presumably because it's less uncomfortable to just slide horizontally on the heel edge than it is to side slip on skis, thereby deluding some new boarders into thinking it's a valid technique that allows them to tackle anything, rather than a get out of jail card? Regardless, there certainly seem to be a lot of people of both persuasions (ski and board) who overestimate their abilities and underestimate the amount of consideration and general awareness required.
I think Easiski's summation of the learning curve on the current thread in BZK is superb and new snow users would do well to bear it in mind/be taught that there is more to "capable" skiing/boarding than whether you can carve a turn. IME it probably takes 10-15 weeks on snow to begin to have a true inkling of how much you don't know
But this just goes back to all the other threads we've had on the subject over Xmas and New Year.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I don't believe its a really a discussion about which method of sliding (ski or board), its about people, their experiance, behaviour, attitude. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Spyderman, I was talking to a Doctor from Revelstoke who said that he was part of a survey that found snowboarders are aroud twice as likely to obtain an injury than a skier. Whether that means more collisions or more falls is not certain.
Guvnor, I was recently talking to a level 4 Canadian instructor who said she recently took out her old 210s for a laugh and she couldn't ski properly on them at all anymore. She said it was quite annoying because she used to be able to ski tight lines through the trees and was now struggling everywhere.
rambotion, I'm with you on the snowboarders more likely to be out of control. There are some oustandingly skilled boarders who are completely in control, but they do seem to be in the minority, especially on icy pistes. Perhaps boarders are more likely to be young, gung-ho males than skiers are (talking as a young-ish, gung-ho male skier who's always completely in control *ahem* )...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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jcbaragorn, snowboarders have more injuries (wrist sprains/breaks) and skiers have more serious injuries (leg breaks & ACL etc)
but the basic problem is simply speed, peeps just go faster at an earlier stage and it is all to do with a combination of gear/piste bashing/safety equp etc., which generates the extra speed - peeps just can not stop in time to avoid other peeps because they are going too fast
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I had this very discussion with Luggi, the guy I hired skis from in Mayrhofen. A seasoned skier of considerable experience, he no longer skis in peak periods, opting for the times in the season when the pistes are much, much quieter.
Bashed, 'fast' pistes, easier equipment to learn and ski on, alcohol, poor fitness, lack of instruction, lack of safety instruction and........helmets (providing a greater feeling of one's own safety - Luggi's opinion) all combining to contribute to increasing and alarmingly bad accidents.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I spent my working life in a potentially very dangerous industrial environment with a culture where safety was paramount (really, not just a statement). Wearing protective equipment as the last line of defence was part of the thinking. I wear both a helm*t and the latest soft body armour, both are comfortable and part of dressing to maintain even body temperatue. It does not make me feel invulnerable, it is indication of my awareness of the danger involved. All threads lead back to the helm*t one
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I was skiing in Whistler this December and they had terrible snow conditions. Hardly any pistes were open as there were rocks throughout virtually every piste. I saw lots more accidents than I've ever seen before, but in two ways:
1) The open pistes were incredibly busy as so few were open. There were a lot of collisions. Skiing through those bits of piste required a lot of concentration. They were icy, full of skiers of all abilities including beginners. With that density of people, collisions were inevitable. It's like when you are driving on a motorway with far too much traffic, but then in addition introduce people (including children) who have never driven before.
2) On closed runs people hitting rocks and creeks that weren't filled in at speed - resulting in double-ejection superman impressions. I was on some lessons where the instructor decided that he would risk getting fired by taking us onto the closed runs as they were safer than the open pistes since they were quieter. This, however, assumed that we had the skill to avoid the rocks and skied them at a sensible speed (all with the knowledge of someone who's skied at that resort since 1965). Not everyone that was skiing the closed runs was doing so in such a sensible manner.
rayscoops, apparently, the most common injury to skiers is to their thumbs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jcbaragorn wrote: |
| apparently, the most common injury to skiers is to their thumbs. |
A good reminder to release your poles when a fall is beyond recovery (and when driving - let go of the steering wheel before impact happens)but it is better to avoid the mishap in the first place.
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| Bob wrote: |
| I don't believe its a really a discussion about which method of sliding (ski or board), its about people, their experiance, behaviour, attitude. |
Yes, but does the equipment play into that? i.e. does the comparative ease of progress tempt people into believing they are more competent than they actually are? And is there a difference between methods of sliding in that?
Some people are naturally cautious, but others aren't and maybe they need a hard lesson to learn caution? For instance I have always thought it would be a good idea for those learning to drive to have to experience a minor accident first hand to learn that the metal box around them doesn't make them invulnerable. The problem, of course, is to do that without causing serious injury. But my point is that whether on the road or on the slopes, maybe there would be mileage in devising some way in which those without the natural caution can be brought quickly to an awareness of their own and other people's vulnerability as an essential part of the learning process, like any other part of technique?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| But my point is that whether on the road or on the slopes, maybe there would be mileage in devising some way in which those without the natural caution can be brought quickly to an awareness of their own and other people's vulnerability as an essential part of the learning process, like any other part of technique? |
Interesting - reffering back to my earlier post, I think that it's MOSTLY safer - there's more signage, more netting, more padding and less rocks, grass and ice to trip up the unwary. Hence they break themselves on each other later in the week rather than the hill earlier in the week.
So how about having an icy horrible water injected slope next to the beginners hill, with a longish run in, covering it in a couple of buckets of pointy limestone & flints and putting an unpadded fence at the bottom. One people have the basics put them on that and explain that "this is what you might unexpectedly have to ski/board on when you get some speed up"? A darwinian approach.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| queen bodecia wrote: |
| However I have noticed snowboarders rarely travel as fast as skiers and are less likely to be out of control, but one thing they do which can be construed as dangerous is sitting in big groups at the side of the piste effectively narrowing the skiable area... |
Surely you mean in the middle of the piste, under a blind crest, so as to be totally invisible from above. |
I have a new respect for snowboarders having now tried it a bit.
"We" don't just sit about under blind crests for a laugh. We fall over a lot, and have to regain composure before undertaking the tricky task of recovering all the splinters of coccyx that have just come out of our noses.
I daresay there is the occasional loon who thinks that sitting in the freezing cold in the middle of, effectively, a motorway is a good idea. Most times though, please extend your perhaps reluctant sympathy to the winded snowboarder with the pulverised buttocks. It might be me.
A snowboarder sat down is only the same thing as a skier standing still. It's just that standing still on a board is pretty much physically impossible, so whenever you need a breather there's no option but to gracelessly crumple into a heap on the floor.
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You know it makes sense.
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| jcbaragorn wrote: |
| I was recently talking to a level 4 Canadian instructor who said she recently took out her old 210s for a laugh and she couldn't ski properly on them at all anymore... |
I had my 205's out this past weekend and my 207's out the weekend before that and rather enjoyed them. You just need to haul out the old equipment from time to time in order to stay in practice - first run after the change in either direction (straight vs. carving) is always a bit of an adventure while your mind and body "relearns" the appropriate technique.
Of course I have no desire to take those old boards throguh the trees (not what SL and GS skis are designed for).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Forgot to mention Alcohol! Deffo one of the main accident causers in Austria. Especially in Ischgl where the (narrow + icy) valley run is sometimes full of people who should not be allowed to walk let alone ski
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Poster: A snowHead
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I skied on my old 190s three seasons ago in Passo Tonale. Just for the fun of it and just for an afternoon. Yes I got some weird looks from people, but I still think the skinny ski ankles together stance looks pretty stylish. It's not really all that different for me as I learned the old fashioned way and probably still ski the old fashioned way on shorter fatter skis...
I guess there is but one advantage to being old...
I still think the pistes were busier back in the 80s. And I have no problem sharing the pistes with snowboarders. On the whole, they are just younger and trendier versions of myself. Some of them are a bit mad but the same can be said of skiers. The lack of control thing is kinda universal...
Maybe we just need to teach people better, or insist (how?) they have better skills before they are unleashed on the open mountain. Over to you instructor types. And yes, there's plenty more you could teach me if only I could afford you guys...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
Drink. The number of people i see having a beer a 10.30am is amazing
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Do you live in Rugby too Stewart?
On the subject of the OP, you notice the difference in slope useage by a skier and a boarder immediately; good skiers have a much tighter line that sees them just making slight corrections as they basically go downhill. Good boarders do big carves that mean they criss-cross so much more. They arrely meet as good people don't have accidents.
But...
...Rubbish skiers, of which there is an equal (or greater) number than rubbish boarders, are a massive hazard because they just don't have the pace so do that stop/start thing that you just can't judge as you whizz past. Plus, they seem intent on coming to a total standstill because they've overturned, a particularly bad problem on those pistes that have deeper snow where they just can't string together a series of half-decent carves.
Rubbish boarders fall over 10 times more than rubbish skiers so put themselves at risk from passers by, but that's the nature of being strapped onto a plank of wood. Plus, they are always knackered from smoking all the dope skiers belieeve they smoke 24/7, so they have to have a word with themselves every 25 yards. Plus, they're everyday Joes who've never been privileged as kids to go skiing, so are dumbstruck by their surroundings, meaning they sit down to admire them wherever and whenever they want. Probably just over a crest. On the downhill course. In the middle of a race meeting...
I've had my fair share of collisions with skiers and I have to hold my hands up and say that a few were my fault. The lady I knocked over into 4ft of powder in Champagny will bare testament to that. However, I won't admit blame for the 13-year-old who decided to take me out on a red run in Les Gets that her mum thought would be the ideal place to introduce her to skiing on.
I'm not gonna crib about skiers though because it's something I'm gonna learn to do this year....
...but you do whinge a lot about boarders spoliing your party!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yes - more skiers, more speed, less respect.
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easiski, agreed.
The natural consequence of increased express uplift is that more people arrive at the top of a fixed area and try to go down at the same time. But skiers grumble more about lift queues than busy slopes. There might be something to be said for an agreed index of - say - skiable hectares/number of skiers upliftable per hour x100.
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I bet half the people complaining about people skiing beyond their limits are the same people who huff and puff about 'not trying hard enough' if anybody dares to claim they've skied a whole holiday without falling over.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There's an easy answer to this which is if you feel a slope is dangerously overcrowded ensure you have the skills and tactics to avoid being a victim or simply don't ski there. Many resorts there is simply no point in being part of the "death before download" crowd unless you fancy a reminder of what nasty overcrowded runs are like.
I think resorts do owe some responsibility but I've rarely heard of places (certainly in Europe) limiting ticket sales/issuing lift pass refunds at peak periods or when large parts of the area are closed. Certainly Fernie when I was there could 1) Have lowered ticket prices to reflect limited terrain & lift openings and 2) Have suspended day ticket sales mid morning to prevent overcrowding. Course it was peak week of the season so cash was king even at the cost of longer term reputational damage. I quite envied season pass holders who were able to do a couple of laps then say "I've had enough of this shitshow" & go home because my sunk cost meant I felt obliged to stay out all day.
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