 Poster: A snowHead
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We do have many instructor types posting on Snowheads, and its from these people who I request input from.
I've seen many friends beat themsleves up, through peer pressure, that they havent achieved the 'i've skied a black' level by week 2 but person x has! We regularly see postings suggesting advanced ski-ing ability after a couple of weeks ski-ing from what appear to be 'one week wonders' who are now not having lessons. Claims that 'I've skied blacks, double blacks, off piste, skied out the park etc....
From my ski-ing level i sit back in awe at these claims (sometimes smile). I wonder why arent these people head hunted for the national ski teams? I do enjoy tuition and, other than an odd time, rarely fail to pick up some technique that betters my ski-ing and wouldn't hesitate in having further instruction.
So instructor types, from a 'professonal' perspective, are there 'realistic levels' that beginners \ intermediates should look to attain over their ski-ing \ boarding weeks in the mouintains. Certainly over the first 4 to 6 weeks it may well be that this cannot be set to time but a tick list of skills would be useful.
It may not be possible to have such a timeline of skills training, that would also be useful to know.
Edited to be clearer about the question
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 11-01-09 17:23; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Personally, I don't think it's possible to categorise people like this. Simply because everyone's different, whether it's confidence, natural ability, health & fitness or whatever. Think of people who took 8 lessons and passed their driving test first time (me!) or those who took 40+ lessons and 3 attempts to pass their driving test. No difference in levels of tuition as a rule, just difference in aptitude and confidence. I admit I did have a bit of a head start as I used to race karts as a kid...
Anyway, back to skiing. Unless one is making a living out of skiing, it's not a race, we learn at our own rate. Some people, if pushed too hard, end up not enjoying themselves and where's the sense in that when one is essentially on holiday?
BTW, I'm not an instructor at all. In fact I'm probably an instructor's worst nightmare, 13 weeks plus one full season and stuck indefinitely on an intermediate plateau, wary of black piste markers and never been off-piste. However, I rather like my plateau, for one week each year it serves me well and I have a whale of a time...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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queen bodecia, Thats why im convinced that a base level of skills is whats required and these should be the target. I've seen people on red and black runs who havent even got basic sideslipping sorted but they will insist they 'skied' a black.
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BMF_Skier, fair point, I may not have style, but I do at least have control. Are these people who simply haven't had enough tuition or for whom tuition has failed to equip them with the basics...?
I guess it goes back to the countless threads about collisions. I can imagine out of control low intermediates on difficult pistes could be a recipe for disaster. Back to the driving analogy again, people often have inflated opinions of their own ability (not being sexist here, but this tends to be a male trait). The ones that brag about being excellent drivers often have licenses peppered with points and a couple of claims on their insurances...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I guess it's easier to learn these days on shorter fatter skis. I think my first three holidays were spent exclusively on nursery slopes and easy green or blue pistes. Admittedly this was back in the late 70s, early 80s on school trips with skinny skis. I seem to remember learning at least 5 types of turn, all of which I expect are obsolete now...
Last year in Kitz, one of the chaps who skied in our group was only on his third week. Credit to him, he could get down anything, but had a habit of wandering outside of piste markers and never seemed to be able to stop in the right place for the huts, lifts or just catch up stops. Plus when I was following him I had absolutely no idea from his body positioning when he was going to make a turn, which made following him rather difficult. Then I remember a flattish bit where we all 'skated' along and he had no idea how to do this and fell in a heap. It all rather made me wonder what he actually had been taught...
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Bones, I think you'll find that in the UK and Europe, ski teching requires years of training and falling over on red runs isnt one of them. I also went through the basic skills excercises, these seem to embed a core set that you build on.
Is this missing from many peoples basic tuition nowdays?
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queen bodecia, Your Kitz guy is probably one of the 'i can ski blacks and off piste' brigade and little or no basic skills. This is why i'm trying to gauge , if simplistically, a set of skills that modern teaching considers essential.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| BMF_Skier wrote: |
So instructor types, from a 'professonal' perspective, are there 'realistic levels' that beginners \ intermediates should look to attain over their ski-ing \ boarding weeks in the mouintains. Certainly over the first 4 to 6 weeks it may well be that this cannot be set to time but a tick list of skills would be useful.
It may not be possible to have such a timeline of skills training, that would also be useful to know. |
i think the most important thing is that they're having fun 
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Are most folks realistic about their skiing ability - no
Skills - someone will list it then we will argue what all the terms mean surely? 
I'm no instructor btw... just a crazy person who has taken 50-70 private lessons a season every year from I started to ski until I headed to Europe... I never needed a "number" or "level" to describe my ability - instructors and I knew what I could ski and how I skied in different conditions...
FWIW I still struggle skiing bushes although I'm great on snowgrass.... and I've pretty much nailed the slush as long as my usual instructor can be persuaded to apply the good slop wax on the really "wet" days at the end of season...
Your problem is you will need a list of a set of skills and then situations folks can consistently apply them in.... Some folks have none of a certain skill, others cannot apply it consistently across all situations... the "ski gods" can apply all skills blended in any way they like across all situations...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Each to their own...only really an issue when pairing up with people you don't know..the rest can be bragging rights ..
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You know it makes sense.
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I think there is an extreme difference between "getting down" a red/black and skiing down it whilst in proper control. A young lad I know went on his 1st trip, with his school, last year. We'd been discussing it beforehand as I was going skiing too, at a similar time. All he was interested in on the return was that on his nth day they'd "done a red", something I still have not done. Does it bother me? No, but he thought it should.
As for "having fun", it depends on one's definition. Yes., I am all in favour of "fun" provided it isn't the reckless, adrenaline seeking out of control stuff that puts both the doer and everyone else in their path in danger.
Do people know their level realistically? Almost certainly not in many cases, some over and some underestimate. The set of levels as used by some psychologists is useful I think:
1. Unconscious incompetence
The individual does not understand how to and cannot do something skillfully and is often unaware of their lack of ability.
2. Conscious incompetence
Though the individual cannot do something, he or she fully recognizes this. It is possible to get stuck at this stage & not realise when competence has been achieved.
3. Conscious competence
The individual knows how to and can do do something & has become aware that the skill is there. However, demonstrating the skill still requires a great deal of consciousness & concentration.
4. Unconscious competence
The individual has had so much practice with a skill that it becomes "second nature" and can be performed easily without concentrating deeply. He or she may not realise how good they are at the skill.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There are many threads which touch on this subject, Some of which I've started, but apparently it had been done to death before I chipped in - is it difficult to grade yourself when so many different levels of competence are understood by so many people. Two of the threads which I started on the subject are here:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=662442
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=532284
Butterfly, I've always liked that grading system - it crops up in many of the management training courses that I've done and and I think I mention it in one of these threads above too. I think as concepts they are very applicable to skiing, for example I think I'm at level 2.5 - 3 on an easy red run.
Although it wouldn't suit some people I wish there was a grading system that I could work through as an aspiring skier like the children have at ski school. It seems there aren't any qualifications that you can start to earn which reflect competence until you start working through instructors courses, and I'm never going to get to that level.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Could it be that learning to side slip on the modern short skis is much more difficult than on the longer narrow skis of the past. You dont see as many ski classes learning to side slip these days as used to be the case.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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riverman, and that is a HUGE mistake IMV....
ISTR that easiski said she taught it asap...which set her out from the many instructors that don't... I can't recall the thread tho' but it was an enligtening read. 
I just don't get it.... a good side-slip is vital...one of the most used and important skills you'll have and particularly when you HAVE to use it..it better be good..!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think most people who have learnt to ski ,had a few weeks of group lessons and would class themselves as 'Intermediates' maybe enjoy sking blues ,reds and maybe a few blacks,will probably never get much beyond that level.
Those that have a thirst for knowledge,seek advanced/specialist tuition will progress to a level where over a good few years they build up a bank of knowledge/experience/confidence of all conditions and skiing scenarios to the point that they are confident/highly proficient with most that the mountains can throw at them and can master it with a good degree of confidence and technical ability and style without even consciously thinking about it.
I would put most of the better,maybe the top 5-10% of  skiers in this area of ability.
Many of these enjoy skiing on piste,maybe with friends /family but really dont get their kicks from your average piste, actively seeking off piste routes,tree skiing, bumps,jumps, variable conditions in order to get their fix.I would go so far as to say if it doesnt snow heavily at least once during their holiday thus opening up a whole array of skiing possibilities,then a certain degree of dissapointment/frustration might ensue
If you dont get what Im talking about,then theres is a lot more to learn ,in fact whatever your experience there is always something more to learn.
_________________
When compared with instructors who probably have grown up skiing and spend 90% of there time on skis most of us are mere mortals however.
Compared to top freestyle/freeride/race skiers most of these instructors are mere mortals.
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JT, totally agree. Sideslipping has got me out of trouble many times. I was taught how to do it during my first ever ski lessons at Hillingdon dry slope - I think it was just part of the very basics of learning to ski.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, I know what you mean about having "grades" or something to work for, but I think it'd be hard to have a set that were internationally agreed and equivalent, though I think ESF kids' ski school does? I must say I enjoyed working for skating awards when my kids started at the newly built Basingstoke rink and a Mums' Club was set up. The only problem could be beating oneself up for being stuck at the same level and thinking you're not making progress when in fact you are doing. In bellringing we have a system used mainly for kids (but some adults like it too) that has a progress card containing a long list of skills, and completion of each is one point. The learner is not expected to achieve them in a fixed sequence and can apply for awards on having achieved certain numbers of points, so each person who achieves a specific award may not have covered precisely the same ground as another. It works well as it encourages the development of a firm and broad repertoire of basic skills from which to progress.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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"Rating" or levelling skiing only works as a very broad way of working out who can keep up with who in a class on the day. It totally falls over if you want to argue how great you are on the internet. The side-slipping thing pretty much goes straight into my thoughts on teaching and tuition - it's all about building blocks that allow people to do things more naturally. You can't teach someone to ski a black, but you can have them feel confident in their edging or balance to apply those skills to the terrain they're comfortable on, and you can give guided mileage to push comfort levels and help people realise their capabilities. There're only a few basic compentencies (5 if you want to believe the CSIA) and after that you're optimising them in different applications, so the whole progress thing as to "I can do this so clearly I'm a level 82 skier" just doesn't make sense.
Whichever instructor said side-slipping was a "waste of time" is a strange one - it's a good drill and introduction to feeling how your edges work, regardless of it's a useful tool to actually get places...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Butterfly, you sound as though you were looking for this:
He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool - shun him.
He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is a child - teach him.
He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep - wake him.
He who knows, and knows that he knows, is a wise man - follow him.
Some sort of ancient Persian proverb, apparently.
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BMF_Skier, Firstly, I see that you asked for the perspecive of ski teachers, and so far no-one who has replied is one (although Arno has done something in the past).
The people who boast about their exploits are just that - all mouth and no trousers! Probably the guy that broke Jules Bs neck and SHello's collar bone. DON'T LISTEN TO THEM EVER.
Generally: 1 week can be parallel, but mostly basic swing sort of. If very nervous probably still ploughing.
2-4 weeks are likely to be parallel and ski blues and possibly get down reds (easy ones), are likely to have fairly major issues with rotation and lack of ankle flex
5-8 weeks are likely to be able to get around most places, but are at the dangerous stage of thinking they can ski and are likely to be overly ambitious. If they haven't had many lessons they are still likely to have rotation/ankle flex issues
9+ weeks are likely to be beginning to be really able to ski properly and cope with different conditions and descents. Hopefully will have got rid of rotation and ankle flex issues, but are unlikely to be moving the hips much to the inside of the turn
20+ weeks are probably moving laterally, able to carve (properly) and ski off piste on steeps and difficult snow conditions - will have totally stopped boasting by now. When asked how well they ski are likely to say something along the lines of " I can get down most things" .
Now Before you all start having a go at me - I'm not being nasty, I'm not being rude to any particular person - this is a general view (clearly there will be differences) from a ski teachers perspective. I've stuck my head above the parapet.
Basic skills everyone needs: weight transfer to turn, side slipping (your get out of jail free card), traversing and edging, balance, understanding of what the skis do and what you should try to do to get them to do it! How any instructor can say side slipping is a waste of the student's time is beyond me? Ditto traversing. Any ski teacher should think about what might happen when they're not there and the student gets to somewhere they shouldn't be .... how do they get out of trouble????
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, I , for one, certainly wont be having a go at you, far from it. This is precisely the sort of reply I hoping for from a ski-ing professional.
Within the timeframes you specified I sure I can see most of my own progression and I expect so will many other snowheads.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DaveC, Sorry missed your input.... 
Its the building blocks that you mentioned that I feel can be missing from some peoples snow education.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BMF_Skier, you're thinking straight here.
The terrain one can ski does not define their skill level,,, but the manner in which they ski it does. The ability to flow elegantly down tough terrain is a byproduct of skill development. Tumbling down it like a sac of potatoes is more just a measure of testosterone levels.
Yes, skills can be developed, to a certain degree, by simple tossing oneself into terrain that's currently far above one's skill level to negotiate skillfully,,, if the body survives it. But the skills developed will be narrow in nature, and it's easy for bad habits born of survival reactions to become embedded into the muscle memory.
A much better way of developing skills is to learn them on easier terrain, refine the skills there, then take them up to the tougher terrain to put them to use. There are a broad basket of foundation skills, let's call them Building Blocks , that skiers need to develop to take their skiing to high levels. Balance and edging are the main areas that need attention. Angulation, rotation, and flexion/extension are skill areas that support them. And Transitions skills allow you to flow from turn to turn in any situation.
How do you measure where you're at? First, throw out the number systems. Leave them to the ski schools to make their feeble attempts to pigeon hole large groups of people into general ability groups. That's what they were created for, and they often fall very short. Numbers don't mean squat. Come to understand the skills that make up great skiing, and then work on developing them. Monitor how you're coming along in developing those skills, and simply direct your focus to the areas that are lacking.
In all my years of coaching, I've never looked at a skier and assigned a number. I've looked at a skier and done a very detailed evaluation of their current skills, then devised a very specific and individual plan to elevate those skills. Numbers schmumbers,,, they mean nothing to me. They're about as accurate as trying to know the entirety of a person by their sun sign.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A great reply from easiski; I would agree with it all, particularly the bit about basic skills. I learned skiing in the 60s, (mostly) in Scotland. So it wasn't unusual to be on the way to Glenshee, find the road blocked and spend a day enjoying yourself somewhere on a patch of snow, no lifts in sight. In those days I spent a lot of time practising side-slipping and I have never regretted that. I have always felt that edge control is a basic aspect of skiing and side-slipping helps give you a feel for that. Mind you, I'm not advocating doing without lifts! The more snow you can get under your skis, the better. The age one learns skiing at probably also makes a difference to the speed of learning. In general, kids have it easier, for they have less weight to control (not to mention the fact that many seem to be without fear).
I'm still learning - I haven't counted the weeks 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Lizzard, Nice!
Thanks to DaveC, easiski, FastMan, for some good encouraging stuff that makes me feel a whole lot better about my not-so-rapid journey along the learn-to-ski road. I (and I know many others) really appreciate the time people take to give opinions, help and advice on threads like this.
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easiski, FastMan, good posts both and many useful views for those who ponder (and they will) this.
Only thing I'd add is people are competitive. Against others, against scales, against higher qualifications, against themselves. It's human nature. That's why there are scales of achievement and competence in, well, anything that someone can devise an intelligible scale for. Including skiing. Most (not all) are designed for ski school class organisation, knowing who can ski together, what level of ski/boot/thermal jockstrap to buy, but actually it's not only kids who need levels to help them know how they're doing, give some small recognition for a step in the right direction, know what the next step to aspire to should be, and yes, to know that they're better than the other kid! It's just another facet and it doesn't in any way stop it from being fun.
Of course it's notoriously tricky to design a good scale, hence, well, there isn't really one that I'm aware of. A skills based one would be good but of course that'd require professional and impartial assessment, and as learning skiing is a customer initiated and focused leisure activity this could be tricky in itself, so ski shop scales are the common surrogates.
Actually I wonder if it's when one stops trying to proactively progress that one starts to feel these scales no longer have meaning. You've plateaued at whatever intermediate or super-expert level and aren't really bothered anymore - you know where you are, may or may not be quite happy with it, but aren't aspiring or competing any longer. And no of course it doesn't stop you having the bestest fun.
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slikedges, I think the important thing for me is to know I am making some progress, however small. That could be achieved by some kind of grade, but it can also be achieved through what an instructor tells me or shows me on video and comparing previous videos with new ones. I think you're right that there will be a level when that is far less important & that will be when I can happily pootle around a resort's blues with friends without worrying whether or not I will be able to cope with the next run we elect to do!
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| BMF_Skier wrote: |
| So instructor types, from a 'professonal' perspective, are there 'realistic levels' that beginners \ intermediates should look to attain over their ski-ing \ boarding weeks in the mouintains. Certainly over the first 4 to 6 weeks it may well be that this cannot be set to time but a tick list of skills would be useful. |
i kind of agree with the proper instructors on here (ie not me, notwithstanding easiski's comment that i have done something in the past ) but i didn't really like the reference to levels people "should" look to attain. so long as the individual is having fun and not endangering anyone else it doesn't really matter if they are still a nervous snowplougher after 10 weeks
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| slikedges wrote: |
Actually I wonder if it's when one stops trying to proactively progress that one starts to feel these scales no longer have meaning. You've plateaued at whatever intermediate or super-expert level and aren't really bothered anymore - you know where you are, may or may not be quite happy with it, but aren't aspiring or competing any longer. And no of course it doesn't stop you having the bestest fun. |
I think a major problem is that conventional scales e.g. S+R give you no idea of how much there is to do exponentially at the top end. If you go to a place where people really can ski you might be able to hold your own in that you're mainly comfortable all over the mountain but then you'll see someone nail a line that you didn't think was possible or a 14 yr old kid chuck a back flip off the smallest rise mid run as if it were nothing.
So I don't think its necessarily being happy being on a plateau more a realisation that no matter how much you progress the peak is getting higher all the time.
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easiski, Your 'calendar' fits me perfectly, having skied 10 weeks over the last three years, with about a (private) lesson a week. Comments made on my last lesson (2 weeks ago) were reflected exactly what you are saying. Totally agree with the 5-8 weeks too - that was definitely me last year!
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FAQ
when talking to an instructor in Whistler he said he didnt teach it, as he thought it wasted the pupils snow time.
