 Poster: A snowHead
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I wanted to get some from advice Instructors working in Europe.
Currently I teach in the US & NZ but I am thinking about making the move to come back & teach in Europe. I am currently ISIA & my girlfriend is NZSIA Stage 1 so I guess our only option would be Switzerland. Both Alpine
I wanted to know what sort of wages people get & also the gereral cost of living plus any advice you may have about working in Europe
Cheers
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Easiski your girl for advice on the French situation - I'm sure she'll be along at some point today.
Re. wages, I know these vary widely between resorts. I was privvy to a discussion between two British instructors working in different French resorts. They were surprised how much more one of them was being paid than the other. However, once they'd tallied up their basic living costs, the lower paid one had more disposable at the end of the week - some resorts are so much more expensive to survive in.
erm... sorry, I've not been much help have I 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks admin, unfortunatly neither of us can work in France with our current certs, I think we are just ale to work in Sitzerland or Andorra but I would loved to be proved wrong
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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AFAIK you can stagiaire for 2 years with an ISIA in France?
edit: With one of the ski tests (Test Technique or Eurotest, I'm not sure which)?
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 17-05-07 10:42; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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revolutionski,
In Verbier the official ski school (Verbier Sport Plus) pays between 24 and 32 CHF an hour, depending on experience and ability. You get a free lift pass and uniform and insurance. I think some of the Engligh owned schools pay slightly more (especially if you are ISIA) but not much.
Downside of course is that living costs in Verbier can be quite high. A lot of instructors live down in Le Chable where it's cheaper but still really easy to get to Verbier.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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revolutionski, have you looked into Austria? If you speak English they'll take you 
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revolutionski, As an ISIA you could work as a stagiare in France. You would have to do the Eurotest at some point and finish your ISTD. your girlfriend could also work as a Stagiare, but would have to do the Test Technique before being able to get a log book.
I'm not sure about Switzerland and Austria. Austria is part o fthe Eurozone, but Switz is not. I should think you could work in both countries, but wouldn't be very well paid. ISIA is Landeschilehrer in austria I know. Andorra might be a possibility, as they employ brits, although rather less than previously I think.
Hope this helps.  what are your second disciplines and languages? You need both these for ISTD
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if you get your test technique you could work in france with your ISIA at a larger school that has stagiares for 3 years while you train for eurotest
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks so far guys,
I have snowboarding as my second disapline (AASI Cet 1) and can speak marginal french. My qualification is NZSIA Stage 2 & BASI have unfortunatly changed thier exemptions so I would have to go back & do BASI 2 then progress onto ISTD unless I could jump into the French system which I know very little.
How much would & stagiare make on average & how much work would you get, obviously the montinere (excuse my spelling if it's wrong) would get the work first.
Would I have to do the Eurotest before starting work or can I do it during the season?
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[quote="revolutionski"]Thanks so far guys,
I have snowboarding as my second disapline (AASI Cet 1) and can speak marginal french. My qualification is NZSIA Stage 2 & BASI have unfortunatly changed thier exemptions so I would have to go back & do BASI 2 then progress onto ISTD unless I could jump into the French system which I know very little.
| Quote: |
| How much would & stagiare make on average & how much work would you get, obviously the montinere (excuse my spelling if it's wrong) would get the work first. |
Depends where you are on the planning (probably the bottom) but xmas, February, Easter as much work as you like, January just go skiing
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| Would I have to do the Eurotest before starting work or can I do it during the season? |
You now have to have the Eurotest or Test Technique before you can be employed in France as a stagierre.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Do ski instructors working in France get paid significantly higher than elsewhere in Europe? I know what the Swiss situation is, I just wonder if it so much better paid in France because it does seem that you have to jump through so many more hoops to get a job.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stewart woodward, that's interesting - I thought if you had ISIA you were deemed to be at least Preformation standard, and therefore didn't have to do your Test Tecnique.
revolutionski, I cvan't help you on pay I'm afraid. BGA, I don't think there's much difference in the end rates, (could be wrong), but in Switzerland you would never be paid as much as a Swiss person!!!! The hoops are more widespread now - it's the Eurozone or the others. Eurozone = Britain, France, Austria and Italy at the moment. AFAIK Germany and Spain are trying to join in.
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easiski,
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I thought if you had ISIA you were deemed to be at least Preformation standard, and therefore didn't have to do your Test Tecnique.
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I am trying to get information on this at the moment but several sources have reported as of 2006 a stagiare with a BASI 3 must have a eurotest pass to work and an ISIA must have test technique.
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You know it makes sense.
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| easiski wrote: |
| stewart woodward, that's interesting - I thought if you had ISIA you were deemed to be at least Preformation standard, and therefore didn't have to do your Test Tecnique. |
As i understand it if you didn't register in France before last September, & obtain your BEES form, you now have to pass either test technique or eurotest.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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stewart woodward, Aah! Actually the TT is not too hard, so any NZ2 should be able to pass it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| easiski wrote: |
| stewart woodward, Aah! Actually the TT is not too hard, so any NZ2 should be able to pass it. |
You just have to pass it before you can get a job 
Next tests December 2007 in Alp D'Huez
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Do the word's Protectionism and open labour market not translate for the French 
(Although I suspect Protectionism is a French word originally!)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So, if the French make it so hard, why do people bother? What's so good about instructing in France rather than Switzerland, Austria or Italy?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Elizabeth B, The french (and the EuroZOne countries) set the bar high as you need an ISTD to teach (unless you are a trainee) but this ensures that there is a smaller supply of eligible qualifed teachers and that these highly qualified instructors are paid a decent wage and can actually make a living. Switzerland pay rates are lower as you can teach there with a lower level of qualification.
easiski, I know you dont like people singling out the French as "protectionist" and the Eurozone countries all have agreed equivalent standards for ISIA and ISTD grades but the fact is that any grade instructor can teach in the UK, BASI 3's can teach in Italy for short periods to gain experience, (not sure about rules in Austria) but not so in France. so i dont think that the "Eurozone" equates into equal employement opportunities.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Thought this would clarify the French situation.
FRANCE
Qualification
At present the French authorities only recognise Alpine qualifications, other disciplines being treated as offshoots. To work in France a UK instructor must comply with one of the following:
1. Be part of the ESF system with a ski school holding the Centre de Formation status (training status), as a 'stagiaire' (trainee). This involves passing the Test Technique, a timed Giant Slalom, organised by the DDJS (local département authority), at which the candidate must achieve a specified time.
After obtaining the Test Technique and a First aid Certificate, the candidate enters the Préformation, a 2-week residential course, again run by the DDJS. After this, the candidate becomes a 'stagiaire' and can work for an approved ski school.
2. Or, hold the BASI Ski Teacher ISIA qualification and work as a 'stagiaire' with an approved ski school. Having entered the stagiaire system, the Ski Teacher has a 3-year period to complete the BASI ISTD (including the European Speed Test).
3. Or, hold the BASI Ski Teacher ISIA qualification and have passed the 'épreuve d'aptitude technique compensatoire' (European Speed Test).
Work Permit
As France is a member of the EU, work permits are not required.
Other Requirements
Only instructors qualified at BASI ISTD level can work independently and take their own clients on to the hill.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Spyderman, do you know if to own or run a ski school using ISTD instructors only, one needs to personally be ISTD as well, as someone on here has asserted?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret,
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BASI 3's can teach in Italy for short periods to gain experience,
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ITALY
Qualification
To work in Italy, a UK instructor has 2 options:
1) A BASI Ski Instructor (minimum Grade 3) can work for a limited time for an official ski school, or take private clients. A recent verdict from the court of Trento, (Sent. N. 587/04 19/05/2004) published 05/07/2004, established that a ski instructor with a qualified licence of any grade, issued by a federation of a European Community country, can legally work according to the Italian regional rules. in some provinces for up to 15 days in one season, but this time can be different in other regions. He must confirm with the Collegio Regionale who he is working for and where.
2) To work for a ski school, or work with private clients, for the season, an instructor must have BASI ISTD, (Grade 1) and apply to the Collegio Regionale for authorisation.
Work Permit
As Italy is a member of the EU, work permits are not required.
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skimottaret,
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not sure about rules in Austria)
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Here they are.
AUSTRIA
Qualification
The Austrian authorities recognise and have different qualifications for Alpine, Snowboard, Nordic and Telemark disciplines. For foreign instructors to work for a ski school in Austria, they must hold a recognised qualification at least equivalent to the ANWARTER qualification - so BASI Instructor level at least.
Work Permit
As a member of the EU, work permits are not required to work in a snowsport school. Once a job has been offered, the ski school will do all the necessary registrations with the relevant authorities.
Austria has 8 regional ski federations, who administer instructor training and apply the regional laws for snowsport instruction. The state federation administers training of National Ski Teachers.
Other Requirements
For working independently, different regions may have different regulations. For example, in Tirol an instructor must comply with some basic rules:
He/she must hold a qualification at least equivalent to Landesskilehrer, i.e, BASI Teacher ISIA qualification, which must include a 7-day off-piste course.
For safety reasons the instructor must be able to converse in German.
The instructor must bring his/her own clients, not source them in resort.
The instructor is limited to working 28 days per calendar year, and no more than 14 days consecutively.
In theory the instructor should also apply to the Tirolian Ski Instructors Association with an activity report before arriving.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sat 19-05-07 14:05; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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slikedges,
In France or elsewhere?
In France, yes, to set up a ski school or operate autonomously, you must hold ISTD.
Elsewhere, different story.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Might as well have the Andorran rules.
ANDORRA
Qualification
The Andorran authorities recognise BASI's Alpine, Snowboard, Nordic and Telemark qualifications but, at Instructor level, an additional 4-day enhancement module (available through BASI) is required to match the hours of training for candidates on Andorran courses. An on-snow course as part of the BASI Teacher qualification also counts towards these required hours.
Work Permit
Although its currency is the Euro, Andorra is not part of the EU, so a work permit is required to be able to work there. A medical check-up is part of the application for a work permit and is carried out by the Andorran immigration service. Ski schools will help with payment and organisation of work permits. In addition the medical check must be repeated every 2 years.
Other Requirements
It is also essential to obtain a prosecution history from the police to present with other paperwork. In the UK, this is available from www.disclosure.gov.uk/index.asp (England & Wales) or www.disclosurescotland.co.uk (Scotland). This information must be no more than 3 months old but may take up to 6 weeks to obtain, so this should be obtained before arriving in Andorra.
N.B. - Members applying for jobs as instructors in Soldeu/Gran Valira should contact the BASI co-ordinator in Andorra, Sandy Readman, before sending the application to Andorra. In the past there have been problems with paperwork from BASI members going missing in Andorra, so Sandy will ensure that your application reaches the right desk.
Working independently is not permitted as under Andorran law it is illegal to teach outside of a locally recognised ski school.
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And the Swiss while I'm at it.
SWITZERLAND
Qualification
Like Austria, the Swiss authorities recognise and have different qualifications for Alpine, Snowboard, Nordic and Telemark disciplines. Although in the past, the authorities in some Cantons have been relaxed about qualifications and have permitted people to teach after 5 days of in-house training, this is option is quickly diminishing. Most ski schools now insist on employing qualified instructors from a recognised governing body such as BASI or its Swiss counterpart, Swiss Snowsports. However, the good news is that BASI's Instructor level (formerly Grade 3) qualification is accepted.
Work Permit
As Switzerland is not a member of the EU, work permits are required. An instructor must apply to a recognised ski school in Switzerland and obtain a job offer and contract. Once a contract is in place, the ski school will apply for a work permit and only when a permit has been granted can the instructor work for that ski school.
The general impression that Switzerland is more relaxed about instructors working illegally than for instance France, is mistaken.
Instructors should be very careful if they are offered work without a visa because, if caught (through the regular police checks on ski schools and individuals), the financial penalties are severe for all parties concerned and could result in deportation from Switzerland!
Other Requirements
An instructor cannot work in Switzerland independently without holding the Swiss level 3 qualification and Patente. This is difficult to obtain and a time-consuming process.
Again, not only are penalties severe but, just as importantly, neither the instructor nor the clients are covered by insurance.
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You know it makes sense.
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Spyderman, sorry, yes, France, so I couldn't go and buy say NewGen because I personally don't have ISTD?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| This involves passing the Test Technique, a timed Giant Slalom,... |
Interesting...I was under the misapprehension that the TT was a Slalom, not a GS (not that I expect it'll ever have any relevance to me).
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Poster: A snowHead
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slikedges, Duuno, I suppose ultimate ownership is a possibilty, I'm not sure if New Gen & BASS are operated as a kind of co-op between the individual resort principles, with each resort ski school operating independently, but jointly for marketing puposes. ESF is run as a co-op partnership. John New Gen is really the snowHead to ask. As I say I'm just guessing really.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| slikedges wrote: |
| Spyderman, do you know if to own or run a ski school using ISTD instructors only, one needs to personally be ISTD as well, as someone on here has asserted? |
I wonder if Easiski can shed some light on this? I know it has been asserted several times but I just can't see how the French could prevent someone without ISTD - even a non-skier - owning a limited company, whatever its activity. I'm sure the provision about working independently must refer to working as a freelance instructor, not owning and administering a limited company. Does anyone who is under the impression that you can't own a French ski school without ISTD find a link at all?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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slikedges, Had to redeem myself from the dodgy one I posted, Eh. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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eng_ch,
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Does anyone who is under the impression that you can't own a French ski school without ISTD find a link at all?
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The ESF run as a co-operative partnership, owned by the qualified Instructors within the ski school, with an elected head of the individual resort ski school. Or at least that's what I've been told.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Spyderman, I think you're wrong on 2 counts about what's needed in France. firstly, many independent ski schools are approved training centres, so it's not just the ESF, and secondly, unless they've changed it the Test Tecnique is a timed slalom, not a GS. Same point for your last post about the organisation of the ESF - ALSO ESIs!
skimottaret, I don't see the difference between working in France, Italy or Austria (or Switzerland for that matter). It's only that in France you're called a "stagiare" and in the other countries you're just paid less - amounts to the same thing. However many of my friends have been stagiares for many years. It takes a French instructor about 6-10 years to get through their system. there's no shame in the name.
According to the excellent info provided by Spyderman, It would seem to be harder to work in Italy and Switzerland than in France. Why does everyone jump on the French bandwagon all the time - you can't believe what you read in the papers surely?
eng_ch, slikedges, AFAIK you do have to be equivalent to run a ski school. But this is not really an issue as no-one except a ski teacher would want to. I haven't come across any ski schools that are limited companies - the set up is organised precisely because the vast majority of French ski schools are collectives. I don't see this as a bad thing, having several friends who've been unfairly pushed out of British schools (being employees), whereas that couldn't happen in a collective. We surely don't want to see the emergenge of the big company ski school - we already have the ESF and the Austrian ski school and the Swiss ski school trying to bully everyone ....
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easiski,
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Spyderman, I think you're wrong on 2 counts about what's needed in France.
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The info I posted on the requirements to work in France was provided by Derek Tate, BASI ISTD Alpine Director
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski,
Apologies, looks like you're right, just lifted this from French website, unless it's changed recently, like the Eurotest going from Special Slalom to Giant Slalom. I will check with BASI.
Cursus de formation
arrêté du 25 octobre 2004
T e s t t e c h n i q u e
OBLIGATOIRE - Slalom spécial - performance inférieure ou égale au temps de base majoré de 20 %
(hommes) ou 25 % (femmes).
Etre âgé de plus de 17 ans.
Attestation de réussite valable 3 ans.
Contenu : Eléments techniques, théoriques, pratiques, pédagogiques et de sécurité nécessaires à la
mise en situation pédagogique.
Examen d’évaluation : épreuve pratique de présentation pédagogique + épreuve technique de
démonstration + note de stage.
La réussite permet la délivrance d’un livret de formation valable 4 ans.
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With the TT or Euro test would I have to be a BASI ISIA or would it be possible to become a Stagiere with my NZSIA ISIA?
Thanks so much guys for these posts they are really clearing up what is quite a confusing issue
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FAQ
