Does the "Intermediate Plateau" really exist?

A snowHead

In another conversation someone mentioned that they felt they were on the "intermediate plateau" and they wanted to get off it. This got me thinking. It's a phrase that one hears frequently and in all sorts of ski-situations and often suggests that there is suddenly a great hurdle to jump before further improvement.

Does it really exist? To clarify, do you think there is a step change in the difficulty of a particular level of skiing that suddenly is significantly more difficult than what has gone before? And, further, that many aspirant snow folks get "stuck" just below this level?

Two things occur to me;

1. Many "skiers" manage 1 or 2 weeks a year -> so about 6-12 days. I don't see how most mortals can expect to attain any significant proficiency at a sport if they aren't logging the hours. So maybe the mythical plateau is simply a function of not having enough time on snow to progress to more advanced levels.

2. Ski schools (I admit to only limited recent and second-hand experience with them) seem to teach to a point (competent on blues/reds, basically parallel) and not beyond. (Yes, I know there are specialist courses, but I posit that the numbers of people taking these up is relatively tiny versus the numbers in classes 1 through 3 in your average resort school).

The net effect appears to be that individuals get taught up to the level of the "plateau" and not beyond. With the result that if you have never been taught a specialist technique to cope with moguls, you're unlikely to develop one that works well on your own and by yourself.

Anyone got thoughts out there on this? At the moment I'm challenging everyone I hear mention it.

(Or is all painfully obvious and I'm just slow on the uptake? Happy

)

A snowHead

I think its more of an "intermediate gradual gradient" ie progress being slow when you get to a certain level.
It certainly is due to the fact that most people do only 6 days a year.
I don't think it has anything to do with skischools as such , more to do with the fact that people are less likely to take lessons when they get to a certain level-I think skischools offer enough classes/clinics/private lessons.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I think it exists, and largely because of the nature of runs themselves. You can be fine on pretty much any steepness of a piste, but it's quite a big step to them be able to handle the harder runs, which will involve moguls, chutes, trees, etc.

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I think it exists to an extent because when you first take up skiing, or any sport, the learning curve is very steep and you progress quickly, eg nothing to basic parallel in a couple of weeks. Thereafter the improvements you make are less noticeable so you do not feel you are progressing. However, I do not think 'intermediate plateau' is an apt description as I believe the learning curve becomes flatter and flatter as your skiing improves, right up to experts and racers. At an instructor training level the differences are barely noticable to the untrained eye, but many instructors spend months and years working on particular areas of their own technique in order to progress to the next level, so you could say they are on a 'plateau'.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I don't think it's a plateau unless you want it to be. It's definitely a flattening of the learning curve, though.

My experience has been to progress from an absolute beginner to a confident skier in a relatively short time, but when it comes to progression from a confident skier to an accomplished and efficient skier......well, I'm still working on that one.

I'd definitely agree that the principal barrier to progression is insufficient time on snow. I'm sure that if I could spend a whole season devoted to the sport that I'd get through this phase and start to count myself as reasonably good: 2-3 weeks a year just isn't enough.

Ski schools, in my experience, have consistently improved my technique. I'm more fluid and stable, and I can cope with more difficult terrain largely due to instruction - and that instruction has been of a generalist nature rather than a series of specialist clinics on bumps, steeps or powder. Learning how to ski efficiently gives you the confidence to take on more difficult terrain and conditions. Wanting to learn helps you to prevent being stuck on a plateau.

(Unlike Mrs A, who is happy to remain a terminal intermediate - largely because (I suspect) it means I won't try and make her choose some of the more gung-ho options when we ski together).

But it still comes down to mileage in the end, though. Every year, thanks to the efforts of my instructors, I've felt I've improved. The problem is that I haven't improved as much as I'd like - and certainly not as much as I think: something that is only too painfully apparent each time I see myself in video analysis. No, that's not the Herminator-style racing tuck I think it is, its more of an arthritic crouch.

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David Murdoch,
Like others here, I think that there is a level where your learning curve starts to flatten out. What I find interesting is where that curve flattens out. Back in the dark ages before shaped and fat skis, that plateau seemed to be (for me anyway) mastering parallel turns. Now I'm not sure where it is when you look at the advances that can be made in a week. (See this thread)

I guess that some of these 'plateaux' are weather dependant as well. If your personal plateau is to master skiing in powder and it doesn't snow in the 6 days skiing you get a year, it's going to take a while to get over that one unless you are prepared to chuck bucket loads of money at it and heli-ski.

And as Acacia says - its not a plateau unless you want it to be. Maybe if we stopped talking about the intermediate plateau so new skiers did not know about it, it would no longer exist Puzzled

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I think the plateau exists as an absolute phenomenon - lots of people learn to ski to a certain level, then carry on that way, sliding round the same way year after year. They are "good enough" to enjoy themselves, and to get down most pistes. Most people get to that level pretty quickly, and the very fact that so few of them are interested in continuing to take lessons suggests that they will never get any better. They wouldn't get much better if they skied for more days in the year, just more confident and maybe fitter. Maybe in terms of population it's a standard distribution - a few people spied from a chairlift are obviously beginners, a few are a joy to watch, but most just sort of potter around. But there's nothing automatic about moving off the "plateau", it's a matter of choice. Having made the choice, yes, it's a hard and flattening learning curve.

After all it is free

I agree. It's a plateau, it definitely exists, but it's all in the mind and as pam w says, all a matter of choice. Once people can get out and see the mountain (or at least the pisted bits), they decide that as they are from now on on holiday, why go to the effort of lessons. It's how many people treat their sports in general. IMHO, anyway.

IT DEFINITELY DOES NOT EXIST AS A PHENOMENON! The plateau exists because people don't understand how much more pleasure they'll get from learning to ski really well, and stop taking lessons. Most people only do about 2 weeks of lessons (usually group in a ski school chosen by the tour operator for reasons other than excellence). They come back for private lessons usually after 6-8 weeks when they begin to get bored with what they can do. The problem is that by then their bad habits are very ingrained and they almost have to go back to being a beginner again to sort things out.

I've been saying this for years.

It is true that your learning curve slows down after the initial rush from beginner, but at each stage the learning process is a little harder as the improvements become more and more refined. This shouldn't put people off though - it's worth the effort. Little Angel

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Another way of the plateau is to have lessons at your local artificial slope.......you'll be suprised what you can learn in 90m of plastic !

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Everyone, thank you all as the question triggered exactly the sort of excellent comments I wanted/expected. And, I think confirms my own thinking - especially easiski, skanky, Dave J.

I can hear easiski,'s frustration loud and clear!!

It sounds like there's general agreement that people choose to slow their progress, generally by stopping lessons. Which is perfectly fine, to each their own. So now when someone make's the comment that "they're 'stuck' on the "I.P." I can robustly disabuse them of the notion that this is an external limitation. It might mean "specialist" lessons/training though - I reckon bumps, powder, etc. while only modifications to basic technique are specialist skills.

Next question.

Is there an advanced (!?) plateau? If the learning curve flattens out, which I think we agree it does, how does one generate performance breakthroughs?

I think I've got a bit better this year - at least I am apparently a bit more fluid generally, my bumps are more controlled (and faster) - but it's all very incremental. I've skied bumps or off piste at every opportunity and have had some "advanced" coaching. But given that I will have skied a lot this year I'd quite like the next breakthrough event! So how to push the envelope? (NB, done the heli thing, regular at the inferno, getting into touring, etc. so obvious options already ticked).

Or do I just have to accept incremental improvements only?

You know it makes sense.

David Murdoch,

Defintely - see my comments above. As with the I.P. the solution is to continue training.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

David Murdoch, and every one else !

It's not JUST training....if you've reached an 'advanced' (whatever that means) level, then, as well as taking lessons, you can take charge of your own development. At home (for those of us in the UK), dryslopes, racing, videos, books and even transciever training can all be used.

On snow, if you go regularly to the same place, don't just ski you favourite runs, make sure you get lots of variety of slopes, and snow conditions. Try other ways of sliding - a day on blades, boards or telemarks will improve you skills.

A snowHead

David Murdoch

I'd say incremental improvements only, but maybe that is because I have not yet reached the 'advanced plateau'. wink

I seem to get better little by little year on year, and am quite pleased with the way things are going given my limited time on the snow. My moguls are getting steadily faster and smoother, as are powder/trees and other stuff.

I am slightly embarrassed to admit that I have only ever had a couple of lessons and a half day bumps clinic, Embarassed

and I have more bad habits than that kid down the road that you dont want your children to play with. So it may well be that a lesson or two would steepen my learning curve again.

Cross training made a big difference to me and kept me improving. (A day on blades and took up tele skiing)

As my wise old Granny used to say ' Steady Eddy wins the day'

A snowHead

If you only ski a few days a year, then no matter what level you are at, without lessons, you'll be on a plateau (which is actually slightly downhill, as your errors become ingrained)
Even pros take lessons. So, unless you reckon you're better than a pro, I'd reccomend that early each season (or trip) you take at least some form of professional instruction.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

There are two distinct issues affecting progress. First, the limitations of the mind. As long as your awareness is ahead of your ability, every time you go out you are likely to improve. Having lessons is the quickest way to increasing your awareness. It is by no means the only way, Ski mentioned several others.
Our mind also provides us with fear - useful for survival, not so good for learning.
Another one is incentive - it makes a difference whether you're chasing Bode and Hermann, trying to impress mates, or simply enjoying the mountains.

The limitations of the body change as we get older. Just as our bodies recover from growing and gain stability, we become less flexible and more prone to lasting injuries.
I would love to keep up with my son in the park and jump off cliffs but I know I have to be able to drive him home at the end of the trip. (My son is clearly unimpressed by my superior technique but quite capable of enjoying himself!)

easiski,
From teaching and business perspective, it is frustrating to see people skiing well below their potential, though I believe it is quite normal. We lead complicated lives, not usually centered aroud skiing, often having several other areas where learning is crucial.
I had a 20 year period of not having lessons. Even with my inferior/imperfect 70's technique I could safely get down any mountain and get to where I wanted. A few years ago I restarted learning. Obviously my skiing improved and I'm a lot more conscious of how I ski, though I wouldn't say I enjoy the mountains any more than I did in the past, or have any regrets over missing out on tuition.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Following on from MartinH and Ski's comments, I've found 'Inner Skiing' to be really useful in helping overcome the mental obstacles to progression.

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beanie1, comments above three times, yes, completely concur.

Wear The Fox Hat, I reckon a week a year would keep me at current level, but I'd need to book two days powder, two days bumps (one in good snow, one half day each of ice and slush) and two days cruddy off piste. Which would be great but tricky to arrange with certainty wink

It's easier to just ski more often (in the absence of a good excuse, any excuse will do).

Dave J, I'm very impressed with ID-Freeride - http://www.idfreeride.com .

MartinH, oh yes, let's not forget just enjoying the mountains - (the most) crucial element (of all)?

ski, absolutely. Tele's definitely in the game plan. Snowblades? Surely you jest. Done, disliked and discarded. - Rollerblades, however, are a different thing entirely, especially with Nordic Blading Poles...check out http://www.nordicblading.com/portal/nordic_blading/english/

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After all it is free

I do think that your progress slows down as you get better. All the improvements seem harder and harder to come by, and this can be discouraging. However if you keep trying you'll get there in the end.

The more advanced stuff that takes a good while to get is the transposition of the vertical movement into a lateral movement (without leaning back). BTW it isn't possible to become an advanced skier without ankle flex.

What also takes a long time to acquire is grace of movement on skis. This really only appears with many miles under the skis as well as good technique and relaxation. Even for regular holiday skiers it is attainable, but it must sometimes seem as though it isn't. Don't be discouraged - keep trying - it's worth it. Very Happy

MartinH, I agree, but the frustration is also due to fear! I see so many totally out of control people on the slopes, for whom maybe just one lesson, or maybe on discussion over a beer would make a huge difference. I daily feel I'm about to be seriously damaged by these people! Sad

I would also like to say, that I find the "pub" boasting very irksome!! "I skied a black on my second day, if you didn't you're a wimp" etc. I reckon that attitude exacerbates the situation. rolling eyes

With every learned skill there is a learning curve. Initially there is very little progress for large amounts of work, then it starts to "click" and lots of progress can be made in a short space of time, however after a time this starts to plateau off, where only small gains come with loads of practice. I think that a lot of people claim to have reached this plateau, when in fact they're nowhere near it, and in actual fact their lack of progress comes from a lack of appropriate tuition and practice.

I think that what easiski says about tuition improving your enjoyment is correct, not only does it broaden the choice of terrain that you can ski safely, it also makes it easier to ski and enjoy yourself when the conditions are less than perfect. I've lost count of the number of times that I've been skiing with people and heard complaints along the lines of the conditions being too heavy, the light being too flat, it being too icy, and on occasion there being too much snow! Having a lesson makes all these things so much easier.

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A few years ago, the kids were moaning about ski school and beingtreat llike children etc etc, (I think they were 11 and 12 at the time), we compromised with them and said that we would go skiing for 2 holidays a year (what a sacrifice you have to make for your kids) . On the first week we all have some sort of instruction, and on the second week (usually Easter) we all ski together. This year, the kids only came wih us at Easter (to Whistler) and I had booked all of us some ski instruction during the week. We all benefited from the time apart as well as from the instruction (Julian has so much fun on his day that he booked to go again the following one). It wasn't without it's hiccups though-kids managed to lose their instructor at the meeting point the first morning, but at least had the sense to go to the booking office and rearrange it for the following day. I enjoy it simply because I can't keep up with the rest of them anymore and actually get some company when I'm skiing
in a class.

Kramer, not being used to such large dumps of snow overnight , I found skiing in Whistler quite tricky and very tiring. I definitley would agree with the too much snow theory. Thats what I need to practice.

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Helen Beaumont, we would all like to practice more in too much snow!

I take it that the pre-trip fears about the skiing in Whistler not being up to scratch did not come true? Funnily enough, it was in Whistler that I heard a friend say that he could not ski as there was too much snow!

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Kramer, there had been nearly 1m over the previous 2 days before we arrived, and it continued to snow lightly fouring our 1st day (we were lucky to make it up to whistler at all as there had been a landslide earlier in the day on the Sea to Sky highway which ahd forced some poor people to postpone their departure from the ski area!!!) I wouldn't have minded the knee deep snow so much if the visibilty had been better. I hope to practice in too much snow more often, but will visit the gym more often next time!!!

Your last point is a good one, Helen. I think that a lot of people would find a massive improvement if they concentrated more on their fitness before coming skiing (myself included this year Embarassed

).

You know it makes sense.

Kramer, my career is starting to get in the way of my lifestyle I thin. Trouble is you can't have one without the other. I guess we probably have to work similar hours, so fitting in the fitness is a problem.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Helen Beaumont, to be honest I don't find it too much of a problem, generally I either make it to the gym at lunch time or just after work, but then again, I've got no kids.

A snowHead

Martin H wrote

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Kramer, you get a lunchbreak!!!!

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MartinH,

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

David Murdoch, On the contrary. I started with leather boots and, in retrospect, they were the best thing to begin with. In the 70's I strapped on the concrete shells, thought they were great because I didn't get as many blisters, though I lost pretty much all ankle movement. Watching the best skiers around it became clear that you didn't need to flex, you could just weld your legs together and wiggle your bum. Once you got used to it, it did feel and look graceful, if a little camp.
The concrete style boot still remain among kids' hire equipment. I believe that's why so many get used to leaning back.

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Our trainer would get us to spend a lot of time skiing with our boots completely undone. You need to be perfectly balanced, and it's certainly easy to flex your ankles!

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beanie1, I'm talking about rear entry boots, even when undone they will not flex forwards. They're probably cheap to make and easy for kids to put on but it doesn't help their skiing.

After all it is free

MartinH, rear entry boots do flex forward/back.

beanie1, it's a good exercise, but not one to recommend for beginners, as, if you fall, you can pick up bad injuries.

MartinH,

I wasn't disagreeing with you - boots undone is a good exercise though.

Wear The Fox Hat,

Absolutely, and not for skiing anything too tricky either!

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Help!!

Does the "Intermediate Plateau" really exist?

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