 Poster: A snowHead
|
Konrad Bartelski, the ex-Olympic downhiller who scored Britain's highest-ever World Cup ski result in 1981, has criticised the piste-grooming of Kitzbuhel for reducing challenge and turning what he once found "an adventure for a young boy" into a "homogenised" piste.
Writing specifically about the outer reaches of the Hieslegg, down the back of Pengelstein, he argues:
"Nothing wrong with the run - it was just that everyone was skiing down it at speeds that would have been more akin to those of downhill racers 40 years earlier. The natural challenge of the mountains has been homogenised by the commercial desire to make the skiing more palatable and attractive to holidaymakers. That meant that in a single day I could almost cover the amount of terrain that would have taken me an entire holiday all those years ago."
To what extent is this true, and to what extent can adventure still be extracted from a mainstream ski resort? Resorts make a huge capital investment in piste-grooming machines, and spend a great deal on their running costs, so are they making a mistake?
Is the concept of open ungroomed terrain, most famously promoted by La Grave (France) and Alagna (Italy), to be encouraged? Or is the 'itineraire' (ungroomed piste) a sufficient solution for big resorts?
Should piste grooming be actively scaled back?
----------
Konrad Bartelski's comments are from 'Sentimental Journey' - a 50-year flashback to his first skiing days in Kitzbuhel in 1958, from a 2008 perspective - in January's 'Ski+Board' magazine
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Whatever they decide, they should be consistent. I'd like to see a combination of pisted runs and unpisted/natural, but with the pisted ones done on a nightly basis. Skiing with my low-intermediate fiancee a very mild pisted blue one day can be a rutted, mogulled and generally quite nasty run the next and there's usually no way of telling without skiing it. No problem for those of us that can ski anything switch and blindfolded, but for beginners/intermediates it's a nightmare and very off-putting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
We probably all know people who like to be out on the slopes first thing, not necessarily to miss the crowds but to be the first people on the corduroy; the piste skiers version of fresh tracks. I can't think of anything more boring but if this excessive grooming attracts the punters then resorts are going to provide it. As Sideshow_Bob says, some runs will always need to be groomed but overdoing it is just boring.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Do I detect a whiff of ski snobbery??
Depends what we want out of a week in the mountains...... The recent changes in ski design, along with well groomed blues and reds allow me to ski all day with my wife, and I like that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I was in Zermatt last year, and most of the reds and blacks were just smooth cruising pistes. It takes away any variety or challenge and our ski guide was convinced it led to more accidents as people just fly down then in a way they just couldn't in a more 'natural' state.
It's not snobbery, it's just requesting a bit more variety from on-piste skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I think Konrad Bartelski has a point, to the extent that many mountain slopes are consumer-moulded to an extraordinary extent. Some years ago, when I was investigating a serious ski accident in the Snowy Mountains, Australia, I was given a report by the resort's US consultants which analysed all aspects of its terrain and suitability for piste grading. It rated each sector of the mountain against a standard market breakdown of skier types and abilities, and recommended changes to the ski slopes to offer the 'right' percentage of blue slopes for beginner/intermediates and so on.
Computerised snowmaking systems, high-altitude earthworks (which can be extensive but are usually hidden from the eye under winter snowcover), piste-grooming etc. have transformed natural ski terrain into something almost entirely artificial - depending on the amount of natural snow cover (sometimes none at all).
The end result is that so many pistes in so many resorts are essentially the same. Skiing speeds - another point KB makes - have increased hugely. Therefore, there's more concentration on the white avenue/motorway ahead. Far less appreciation of the subtleties and challenges of the ski terrain. In essence there's far less choice.
I began skiing a year after Konrad - 1959 (at the age of 6, rather than 3 in his case) - also in Kitzbuhel, also by my father. It was probably a decade before I saw a grooming machine, so all that skiing was done on ungroomed snow. Ruts, bumps, tramlines on schusses (particularly nasty!), horrendous tramlines on draglifts and ruts and bumps to throw your skis around (most lifts were T-bars).
The experience now is far faster, far smoother, with a huge increase in daily ski mileage. But the runs tend to merge into one less memorable experience. As he says ... homogenisation.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 3-12-08 23:39; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Probably showing my ignorance, but if the majority of skis being made, sold and rented are specifically for 'on piste carving' then preparing pistes accordingly is natural progression?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
chrisdavis, pistes don't have to be surfaced with smooth corduroy and carving over bumps is not particularly difficult
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I like smooth corduroy. Each to their own.
Ironically I don't like wearing corduroy. Go figure?
I like sugar, and I like babes. I don't like the sugarbabes..........
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I like a bit of variety in skiing but always wear my choc brown corduroy fartbag.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
I dunno, I've always found a few ungroomed pistes in any resorts I've been to and there's always off piste and itineries for those who want more. I'd agree that it can be very off putting for beginners when a blue piste is perfect corduroy and icy moguls another. Having said that, I do like the challenge of ungroomed slopes. I've always found enough to satisfy me but maybe that's because I'm not good enough...
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
I grew up in the age of primitive grooming where ice often predominated. Skiing was a less enjoyable sport back then but for those who persevered, one learned excellent skills. The sport has moved on with improved ski and grooming technology such that the predominant style of skiing today is high speed carving. To please that mass market, successful resorts need to offer an array sweeping "cruising" runs that have been perfectly groomed.
I do believe that in catering to this mass audience, skiing has been homogenised and dumbed down. Hopefully resorts will understand that keeping some of the black runs truly black by not grooming them will keep people interested in the sport.
Given the opportunity, I would spend all my time in the off-piste, so the discussion is slightly academic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
I began skiing a year after Konrad - 1959 (at the age of 6, rather than 3 in his case) - also in Kitzbuhel, also by my father. It was probably a decade before I saw a grooming machine, so all that skiing was done on ungroomed snow. Ruts, bumps, tramlines on schusses (particularly nasty!), horrendous tramlines on draglifts and ruts and bumps to throw your skis around (most lifts were T-bars).
The experience now is far faster, far smoother, with a huge increase in daily ski mileage. |
Another difference between when you started and today is a huge increase in the number of people who go skiing. As someone who is passionate about skiing and likes to share that passion with as many people as possible I think that is a wonderful thing, and if the price of that is resorts grooming a lot of their slopes then so be it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Quote: |
Another difference between when you started and today is a huge increase in the number of people who go skiing. As someone who is passionate about skiing and likes to share that passion with as many people as possible I think that is a wonderful thing, and if the price of that is resorts grooming a lot of their slopes then so be it.
|
That's a very important point - particularly when looking at it from a commercial point of view. It's what many people want, just like better quality apartments. Personally, I enjoy a little bit of a challenge, but I don't have the skill or strength to spend all day negotiating cruddy snow. I do, however, have a lot of sympathy with Bartelski's complaint that it can mean people ski too fast.
The phenomenon is not unique to skiing by any means. I learnt to windsurf when the sport was in its infancy - I owned one of the first boards in Barbados! Nowadays the equipment used by beginners is far easier to learn on - but the equipment used by experts, and the stuff they do on it, is far more advanced. Look at the importance of new rackets and surfaces in tennis, or the ubiquitous use of GPS and chart plotters on boats. Not to mention big mechanical advantages such as huge sheet and anchor winches, and easily reefed sails. We don't have to double de-clutch any more, we don't have to learn to type accurately, we don't have to mix our Christmas cakes with our bare forearms. We don't grapple with skis way higher than ourselves and flexible leather boots (well most of us don't  ).
Looking at the mountains as a whole there are far more unpisted/wild/natural areas than there are groomed runs; I think there's probably room for everyone. The growth in skiing is not just on the pisted runs - I'll bet there are also far more people enjoying the back-country now than there ever were in the elite days described by Bartlelski/Goldsmith when skiing was a sport for toffs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
The world moves on, the majority of skiers are piste skiers so the market will cater better for them. If Konrad Bartelski wants something more challenging then perhaps he should ski tour instead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
I've been to Kitzbuhel twice in the last few years and never found their pistes prepared any differently to any other European resort, with some main runs groomed every night and others left. Apart from perhaps Obertauern where it seemed like they groomed every piste overnight.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Excellent
STOP THE BRUTAL GROOMING.
Piste skiing creates technically bad skiers who can generally only cope with one type of snow surface/condition.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Obviously I shouldn't quote Konrad's article extensively. It's worth a read in full to put his comments in their fullest context and it's a really nice personal story. I think it's valid for him to step back into his shoes as a child and compare the challenge now with the challenge then. If the challenge for kids today is speed, on perfectly smoothed slopes (even many classic mogul fields are now being levelled), then there are clear questions to ask. He makes a central point that there's not enough controlled skiing on these fast wide white carpets.
Skiing has been very different to other sports in the way it has artificially modified (sometimes extensively) the natural landscape to achieve 'consumer comfort'. Given that skiing has existed as a recreational activity for around 120 years (another 50 years if you include early competitive skiing) it's the case that for the majority of those years it took place on unmodified terrain. We've made enormous changes, almost universally, without many questions being asked.
Let's nip one thing in the bud: Skiing is not an activity for the proletariat, because it costs a fortune for anyone who doesn't live close to mountains. It's true that skiing is far more popular and competitively-priced now, but it's hardly likely to become a mainstream activity.
I agree with DB that Konrad could head for the back-country, as could I. It's true that we both started when artificial uplift had already made the most influential impact on skiing (the first cog railways having been used for that purpose in the early years of the 20th century, and cablecars not long later). We didn't skin up the hill in the late 50s/early 60s, though Austrian instructors were notorious for having you side-step the mountain for much of the day!
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 4-12-08 12:30; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| stanton wrote: |
| Piste skiing creates technically bad skiers who can generally only cope with one type of snow surface/condition. |
Shoot me now - I almost agree with this..... 
"I've been skiing for a week now, and progressed to blacks after 2 days - will (insert resort of choice) be difficult enough for me?"
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Guvnor, I agree with rob@rar. Due to the number of skiers, if pistes were not bashed then they would all be great big mogul fields within a week. perhaps there is some train of thought to leave a third of the width of all wide pistes unbashed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Frosty the Snowman, A sensible solution which meets all partied somewhere in the middle - plus money saved for resorts
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yes every 70 m they should leave it ungroomed for 30m - that would sort out the wheat from the chav. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| stanton wrote: |
| Piste skiing creates technically bad skiers who can generally only cope with one type of snow surface/condition. |
I can imagine stanton at a WC race: "Hey, Bode, Herman, Didier, Lyndsay, you're technically bad skiers!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
Let's nip one thing in the bud: Skiing is not an activity for the proletariat, because it costs a fortune for anyone who doesn't live close to mountains. It's true that skiing is far more popular and competitively-priced now, but it's hardly likely to become a mainstream activity.
|
I think that is mainly now down to perception, rather than reality.
Skiing is a little more expensive than a beach resort holiday, but not enough so to put it out of reach of "the proletariat" by any means.
What stops them is more that they just don't want to ski - most people think along the lines of "It will be cold, and involve a lot of effort, and I'll have to learn new things. No thanks".
The perception that it is expensive helps towards that decision, certainly, but I don't believe it to be as important.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
alex_heney,
I disagree...
It's not just a perception, you can go on a beach holiday for far less than you can go skiing, despite the fact that the cost of skiing has indeed gone down....
A week skiing with my family would cost me nearly twice what it costs me to go spend a fortnight down the south of France in the summer... So when budget is tight (I mean tight for real, not "the credit crunch's just hit me I can only spend £600 on a week's holiday rather than my usual £1K+..), skiing is more often than not not an option!
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
I've certainly noticed a reduction in difficulty of pistes, much of which is down to the grooming, however it is also at least in part down to the resorts desires to open out more pistes, for instance one run when I was young was a black, now it's a red, the reason being that instead of being a narrow piste through a tight valley they now piste up the sides of the valley and over the ridges making it arround motorway width and so much easier to negotiate, no whether or not this is a good or bad thing I'm not sure, in some respects it's a bad thing as it reduces the technical requirements for the run, however this could also be seen by less experienced skiers as being a good thing as it enables less skilled skiers to enjoy a run they might otherwise not do
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Variety is the spice of life I say!
I'm a beginner / intermediate and enjoy a nice blue/red slope, can do blacks but find them quite challenging and prefer to be a bit faster on a red (in my comfort zone) and play in the rough and bumpy bits at the edge of the piste every now and then when the mood takes me. I'm not good enough to be going off piste IMO without expensive expert tuition so when I come across a short unpisted run I do quite enjoy it, makes a change. But I'd definately get tired (physically) of them if they were all unpisted.
And another factor for me is there's no way i'd have got the Mrs into skiing if the slopes weren't nice and smooth (she hates the bumps and heavy conditions) so thank goodness for places like Cervinia (her favourite resort) that make sure each ripple is smoothed out each night. So the piste bashers are okay by me
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| alex_heney wrote: |
I think that is mainly now down to perception, rather than reality.
Skiing is a little more expensive than a beach resort holiday, but not enough so to put it out of reach of "the proletariat" by any means.
What stops them is more that they just don't want to ski - most people think along the lines of "It will be cold, and involve a lot of effort, and I'll have to learn new things. No thanks".
The perception that it is expensive helps towards that decision, certainly, but I don't believe it to be as important. |
true the proletariat seem to be able to afford weeks in thailand so skiings not out of their grasp...I've even seen some Northerns on the slopes..but did think the proletariat snowboarded rather then skied anyway......runs
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Quote: |
Piste skiing creates technically bad skiers who can generally only cope with one type of snow surface/condition.
|
That is the biggist load of bull, some people do not enjoy powder and are technically the most perfect skiers I have ever seen!!!! Yes they only ski one one type of terrain but they do it perfectly
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Ordhan wrote: |
| Quote: |
Piste skiing creates technically bad skiers who can generally only cope with one type of snow surface/condition.
|
That is the biggist load of bull, some people do not enjoy powder and are technically the most perfect skiers I have ever seen!!!! Yes they only ski one one type of terrain but they do it perfectly |
So someone who learnt to drive a car by driving round in a circle is a good driver cos he can drive round round abouts really well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
papasmurf,Your analagy is a poor one.
A good driver? yes, because he sticks to the tarmac... he may not enjoy or be good at rally driving.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Let's nip one thing in the bud: Skiing is not an activity for the proletariat, |
Well, this proletarian is especially glad that you are wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| stanton wrote: |
| Piste skiing creates technically bad skiers who can generally only cope with one type of snow surface/condition. |
No it doesn't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Ordhan wrote: |
| Quote: |
Piste skiing creates technically bad skiers who can generally only cope with one type of snow surface/condition.
|
That is the biggist load of bull, some people do not enjoy powder and are technically the most perfect skiers I have ever seen!!!! Yes they only ski one one type of terrain but they do it perfectly |
I really don't get this - how can you not enjoy powder "it's like explaining sex to a virgin" as horizon's sig has it? Railing on a crisp fresh groomer is not unpleasant but that addictive "just give me one more hit" feeling?
Obviously you can not enjoy in the hike for ages,fall over, lose all my kit, can't dig myself out, get knackered sense quite easily (or at least I can). ..hmm maybe I need to stick to the brutal groomers.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 4-12-08 12:38; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Let's nip one thing in the bud: Skiing is not an activity for the proletariat |
I think this is a very short sighted, stereo typical image which is totaly out of date.
Scoucers and the Welsh go skiing these days too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| DB wrote: |
Scoucers and the Welsh go skiing these days too. |
Thats why more and more people are going off piste, not so much for the pow, but just to aviod the Scoucers 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
At least the Scousers can spell it...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
