 Poster: A snowHead
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What areas of training do you feel could be improved in the BASI courses you have taken....
Two that bug me from L1 and L2
They spend loads of time talking about learner types, styles of learning, etc yet nothing practical on how to teach children, which for most teahcing at this level will be the bulk of students.
Little to nothing on Body Mechanics and how it relates to skiing. Nothing on how to identify common faults that may be physiological or equipment related.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes, i was thinking only yesterday that something on how to teach children would be useful.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Training on ski prep and personal off piste safety at an earlier stage than ISIA.
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I think that's the problem - these things are covered at a later date, but BASI have never been all that strong on the kid's stuff. There is a manual though I believe (or there used to be).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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not sure i agree on the off-piste stuff - BASI is equipping you to teach skills to other people. if you aren't allowed to teach off-piste until ISIA, it seems wrong for BASI to assess you on it until then
you can always learn this stuff for yourself independent of BASI
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easiski, nothing at all in the manuals on teaching kids.... they do make mention of ski preperation in the manual but you need a practical demonstration for that to make any sense IMO
beanie1, personal safety off piste i think is pitched right at the ISIA level... and is something you can/should learn for yourself outside of BASI as Arno points out....
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There used to be a great book called 'Captain Zembo....', published by PSIA can't remember the rest of the title. Lot's of ideas about teaching children. There was also a book by Helen Trayfoot.
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Little to nothing on Body Mechanics and how it relates to skiing. Nothing on how to identify common faults that may be physiological or equipment related.
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ski, the CSIA have a whole section on teaching kids of various ages, different ideas for drills, their particular needs etc. BASI has nada...
I was thinking of things like over or under canted boots....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Arno, skimottaret,
L2 doesn’t just teach you to ski and teach central theme, it also tests your own personal performance at a higher level - bumps, variables etc which you are expected to be able to ski to a certain level, although not be able to teach at this stage. Shouldn’t there therefore be an element of off piste safety, even if it’s just a requirement for you to go away and do a course in avalanche safety, much as with the first aid course?
The reality is that newly qualified L2s doing their first few seasons will spend a lot of time skiing off piste with their contemporaries, and they need to, to reach the skiing level required at ISIA. They’re meant to set an example, be responsible, but if you stopped a few and questioned them how many do you think will actually have ever done any training in off piste safety?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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beanie1, i'm all for off-piste safety but everything BASI provides you have to pay for. where would this safety training come in? as part of the L2 course? in which case, would that make the L2 course longer (and presumably more expensive) or would stuff currently included be dropped?
edit - just read your post properly - I'm out of this now, but I get the impression that the first time a lot of people think about this stuff is on the off-piste week that BASI require you to do. Isn't that enough for BASI purposes? It doesn't seem to assume much knowledge looking at the curriculum. the reality is that not many instructors spend much time taking their students into difficult terrain so purely from the point of view of teaching safely a decent knowledge of the basics is all that is necessary surely?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 21-11-08 17:10; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kevinrhead, yeah i did their EL course and it was eye opening compared to the level of information BASI has...
beanie1,perhaps but not all L2's will move on and off piste safety should be their own responsibility not the courses... First aid is needed as you will be responsible for groups but you arent licensed to take off pisters... sorry but we will have to beg to differ on that one....
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The problem for BASI and its curriculum, is the same as the national curriculum for schools, its easy to think of important things to add, the hard bit is containing it with a reasonable time ie if you add this what do you then leave out. The US, Canadian and New Zealand systems all seem to emphasize teaching a lot more. It seems sensible to keep each level discrete and make the requirements specific to what that level of instructor will be delivering so the kid teaching should be in there IMHO.
More of a challenge for BASI listening to the comments on here, is consistency in assessment.
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You know it makes sense.
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jbob, do you think consistency is lacking?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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More coverage of teaching kids in the teaching manual would be helpful. Not sure that it would be necessary to take up too much time on the hill during L1 or L2 with regard to kids, just deal with different stategies as exemplars in the accompanying written material. Maybe a bit of time during the ISIA teach? The Canadian alpine manual is a useful addition to the BASI manuals. The only thing I can think of that I'd like to see would be a bit more video similar to the kind of stuff Sean has been doing for BASI/SCGB.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| jbob, do you think consistency is lacking? |
I've seen some relatively recent Grade 3s that I was very surprised had been given a badge.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Arno, I'm with you on the off-piste week. I think it's at the correct point, best BASI course by far (IMV).
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would stuff currently included be dropped?
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I think that's where the issue is.
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I was thinking of things like over or under canted boots....
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Not usually a problem with a bus load of school children - mind you, being able to spot when they have their boots on the wrong feet sometimes helps !
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Maybe a bit of time during the ISIA teach?
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I think in most cases you'll have moved on from teaching kids when you get your ISIA. I'd say more in the manual, and perhaps an optional day / weekend course run in the UK and Europe. I'd be up for that.
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beanie1, thats a good idea, instead of a boring refresher how about a series of 1 or 2 day modules, teaching kids, bio mechanics, etc....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| beanie1, thats a good idea, instead of a boring refresher how about a series of 1 or 2 day modules, teaching kids, bio mechanics, etc.... |
YES!! We should suggest that. Much better than a refresher course, although lots of extra work for BASI to develop course content.
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rob@rar, yes, but lots of extra money too. Would probably get people doing more than the minimum requirement.
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rob@rar, modules seem to be on the cards for the Coaching courses... perhaps once this thread has run its course a call to Dave R would be in order...
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beanie1, from the comments on here mainly aimed at L2 assessments it would appear to be an issue.
More positivity, I did have a conversation with one of the BASI trainers last winter and he said that he had done a big project the previous summer to establish a more robust frame work so it should be improving. Hopefully then tales "good" skiers failing, "dodgy" skiers passing and folks failing one week and passing the next will dry up.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| rob@rar, modules seem to be on the cards for the Coaching courses... perhaps once this thread has run its course a call to Dave R would be in order... |
Yeah, I'm sure he'd be open to chatting about it. Has the election to BASI Council (or whatever it's called) been completed? A suggestion to the new Alpine Director might also prompt the powers-that-be to at least have a discussion about it.
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jbob, can you elaborate on this framework....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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jbob, maybe, actually thinking about it there was someone on an ISIA level course i did who i really don't think was at L2 standard i.e. he couldn’t “rail” his long radius carved turns. However, i’ve never heard of a good skier failing, and by “good” i don’t mean someone who can skilfully ski difficult slopes etc, but someone who has the skill to adapt their skiing to what BASI want to see.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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No, i think the AGM is in Zermatt some time in the next week or so.
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beanie1, if it was that Andy dude he later did fail his tech quite badly....
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, sorry he didn`t go into detail but it was around ensuring the "tasks" were consistent and the assessment fair.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, how embarrassing... And the worst of it all was that he just could not assess his own level of skiing, the very fact he turned up for the ISIA tech says it all...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hopefully then tales "good" skiers failing, "dodgy" skiers passing and folks failing one week and passing the next will dry up.
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These tales have been around as long as there have been ski instructor exams.  They won't ever go away while the test has a subjective element.
More positively, skimottaret, beanie1, rob@rar, , have a look at http://www.sportscoachuk.org/ and http://www.1st4sport.com. Lot's of resources about coaching children.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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These tales have been around as long as there have been ski instructor exams. They won't ever go away while the test has a subjective element.
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Totally agree.
that's why the speedtest/tt could be argued to be a fair way of assessing instructors top end skiing abilities as there is no subjectivity involved at all, after all you can't chat the clock up can you 
However it too is limited as it tests one extremely specialized area of skiing (thats not to say that you can't be a fantastic racer and all round skier too - in fact you often have to be to be a really good racer, though thats not always the case) and of course it does nothing to test your ability and attitude to teaching. Added to that it is used as an 'economic tool' for limiting instructor numbers particularly in the highly lucrative french market (but we'd all like to have passed it of course).
Still, apologies, I'm not trying to hijack the thread onto the speedtest question (I'm sure that one has been done to death elsewhere) just agreeing with ski, s comment.
I also agree with others comments on teaching kids and having more info on that in courses. Extra optional modules are I feel the way forward, that is I believe what they do in the states in that you can opt to do lots of additional modules in specialist areas which can help you in terms of employability.
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