 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have done numerous 2 day emergency first aid courses with British Association of Ski Patrollers (BASP). Always been good and they are usually available on the larger BASI courses as well as being run around the country throughout the year.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks for your replies 
BASP I have come across in my research, didn't know about REC...
Maybe it is not such a good idea... shame....
(Was looking into ways to blag the odd weekend skiing on the back of a course!!!!!!!!)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm not required to hold any 1st Aid certification, primarily because our resort policy is to call Ski Patrol immediately - they are covered by the liability insurance, and instructors aren't. Patrol are all EMTs or Primary Responders. FWIW, I have both appointed persons and early years 1st aid/cpr - I have to stay current for my summer profession. But I'm not supposed to use this knowledge while on the hill - I'm only supposed to know what the resort says I should know!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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pollittcl, doesn't your instructor qualification require you have first aid for your licence to be valid though? Which reminds me mine runs out soon, need to get on a course!
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loveski, I think it is a good idea... the two times i looked BASP courses seem to be very hard to get on and oversubscribed. The St.Johns amulance one i took had nothing in terms of practical outdoor scenarios...
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skimottaret, have you looked at dates of the BASP courses recently, can you remember if there are any coming up in Jan?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| loveski, I think it is a good idea... the two times i looked BASP courses seem to be very hard to get on and oversubscribed. The St.Johns amulance one i took had nothing in terms of practical outdoor scenarios... |
You don't need BASP, REC Emergency is perfectly fine and they run dozens at PyB or Glenmore.
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ise, i just looked at the REC website but couldn't see any dates listed for the 2 day emergency first aid course. Have you used them before? Do you know if they run courses in the SE?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| ise, i just looked at the REC website but couldn't see any dates listed for the 2 day emergency first aid course. Have you used them before? Do you know if they run courses in the SE? |
http://www.pyb.co.uk/courses/first-aid.php
You'll need to ask REC directly who are providers in the SE, I'm sure there will be one but the PyB price is good and it's a fun course.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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beanie1, no, no such requirement.
easiski, I agree with you, and I've argued it every year but I've always been told that we're not covered under the liability insurance. And the St John Ambulance insurance won't cover me either - I asked.
I've held 1st aid/CPR certification continuously since I was 14, and I update it as necessary (last year I couldn't get on the course I wanted so took another and then took the one I wanted when it was available 6 months later) since I think it is essential in my other profession even if no one checks that I have it - last week my boss came in to tell me that she had been talking to a friend and that the friend thought that both me and the other girl here should have at least basic knowlege, and why didn't I already have the certification - well, she never asked if I had when she booked me!
I hope that I never ever have to use the CPR - I've used the 1st aid numerous times but luckily nothing major has happened near me on the hill. I've had the husband of a student threaten to sue me, but his wife had already admitted to ski patrol that she had deliberately done the opposite to what she had been told to do and that it was her own fault - she deliberately put her ski tips down coming up to the unloading ramp off the lift to see what would happen, so got thrown off the chair and completely wreaked her knee! 
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You know it makes sense.
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loveski, I'm currently in the middle of a 2-day course organised by my local dry-slope. It's been organised specifically for trainee ski instructors/coaches to comply with the license requirements. It's actually called a Stage 2 Exploration Medicine course of the Expedition Care Program put on through Adventure Lifesigns (www.lifesignsgroup.co.uk). It's an extended version of the Approved Person course, and fulfills the 2-day course requirements of MLTB, BCU, IRATA, RYA etc (and BASI). So we're continually placing general training in the context of dry-slope skiing, but also in mountain resort or backcountry, and normal workplace too. So it looks like someone else has also done exactly what you were suggesting (although this specific course doesn't seem to appear on their website). The guy delivering the course sounds like he gives quite a few of these, and has been leading expeditions for many years to places like Central/South America in the summer and Norway/Iceland in the winter.
pollittcl, how on earth does your ski school get away without having liability insurance? Amazing policy. Oh well, clearly you don't agree with it either, but it does seem like an incredible case of one wrong policy being compounded to ludicrous consequences.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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GrahamN, we have liability insurance - it's that we're not covered to give 1st aid and CPR! That's what Patrol is for. I think we're not covered because a 1st aid certificate is not a requirement for our qualifications so there would not be an unified standard even if we all had to have a certificate - it's not something the resort would pay for. The last time I asked about it I was told that to cover us we would all have to have either Primary Responder or EMT certification - both of which are long term courses and far more expensive than the average instructor can afford to pay. The liability situation for ski areas in the US is interesting anyway - basically if you buy a lift ticket you are agreeing that you use the area at your own risk, except for instances where specific negligence can be proven. I don't understand very well since I'm not a lawyer, but the back of the lift ticket has an awful lot of fine print on it!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pollittcl wrote: |
| I'm not required to hold any 1st Aid certification, primarily because our resort policy is to call Ski Patrol immediately - they are covered by the liability insurance, and instructors aren't. Patrol are all EMTs or Primary Responders. FWIW, I have both appointed persons and early years 1st aid/cpr - I have to stay current for my summer profession. But I'm not supposed to use this knowledge while on the hill - I'm only supposed to know what the resort says I should know! |
Perhpas you could let us know what your resort is so that we can avoid it if we want ski instruction.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The most useful part of the first aid course is the recovery position. On my last course I was told that CPR is taught for the benefit of the first aider not the victim - unlike on TV it won't bring people round (except in some cases of near drowning) but all the studies show people who've attended a serious accident where a person has died have been better able to deal with it pyschogically if they felt they were doing everything they could to help, i.e giving CPR. It wasn't part of the course syllabus, but our first aid trainer also showed us how to use a defibrillator (pretty foolproof anyway) as he said it was the most useful thing we'd ever do.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, I think it's general in the PSIA - probably one of the reasons they don't get equivalence (that and the off piste mountain safety module). Although pollittcl, has the qualifications, but wouldn't be able to use them.
beanie1, Yes - you'd have to break someone's ribs to actually compress the heart!
pollittcl, If your client was choking on their own vomit or something, would you be in trouble if you cleared the airway and put them in the recovery position?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I hold the Austrian Anwarter... No real first aid requirements.
(The course does include 2 hours of first aid, in which recovery position is practiced, and CPR is explained, but especially the last bit was a total joke)
I had formal first aid (dutch obviously), but to keep it valid you need to have 6 evenings each winterhalfyear.. which interefered too much with other activities.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm a first aider, but not a ski instructor or guide (perish the thought!). I'm trained in emergency aid, CPR, AED and recognition of most serious health complaints. With regards to CPR, statistics show that less than 4% of heart stoppages are able to be revived through manual CPR without defibrillation. Defib within 8 minutes raises this success rate to 70-80%, although it obviously depends on why the heart stopped in the first place...
It's an important thing to learn and I would think essential for all ski instructors and guides, as would be all other aspects of first aid and mountain safety. If you are a member of St John's Ambulance you are automatically insured under their own scheme and anyone who is certificated in FAW is also insured under their employer's insurance. I'd be very shocked if something similar wasn't in place for ski instructors and guides. How long would it take for mountain patrols to reach an incident, especially off-piste and what would happen if someone was guiding in an area with poor phone reception?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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loveski, one area you might want to look at is "Child Protection". Most sports not just skiing either require or recommend all coaches attend a course, this is a huge number of potential trainees, typical courses last two hours have upto 16 trainees paying £25-35. Course materials say a tenner, looks like a good business opportunity.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| I would think essential for all ski instructors |
It is essential for BASI qualified instructors. You need to hold a current 1st aid certificate, which I think means renewing it every two years.
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| Quote: |
You need to hold a current 1st aid certificate, which I think means renewing it every two years.
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I think it's 3 years?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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In the UK and Europe all Mountain Guides and all mountain based instructors have to have a minimum of a 2 day 1st aid course that contains element suitable for remote areas, some of these are provided by REC level 2 (rescue emergency care) BASP, WEMSI and many others.
Certainly in the UK you need this to validate your qualifications as it all ties in with professional instructor indemnity insurance and employers/employee insurance. Working with the appropriate qualification but no recognised 1ts aid cert' would render your insuarnce null and void.
Cheers
Mark
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easiski, From the resort's point of view I have no idea whether I would be in trouble or not - obviously you would hope that the client would be grateful and not cause any problems. From my point of view I would offer the first aid, and deal with the consequences later - since I feel that's the point of having the qualifications. When I took the St John Ambulance courses we were given a card which stated the insurance that we are covered under, in the UK. But that's not much use when I'm overseas!
achilles, resorts in the US rely on their qualified Parollers, rather than on instructors with a few hours of 1st aid instruction. I know that if I have an accident I'd rather see a patroller than another instructor, although I know many of my peers hold EMT or Primary Responder qualifications, anyway.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pollittcl, I think you misunderstand the situation in Europe. We also have lots of very qualified patrollers, and they would be called straight away to an accident. But ... someone has to ski to the nearest lift to call for them, and then they have to get there, which could take up to 10 mins. Our first aid would be to help where necessary before they arrive, or to know what not to do, more likely. So you see, there's no element of 'relying' on very basically qualified ski teachers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Various qualifications that I hold, including BASI, fitness instructing and soon the BACR Phase IV Cardiac Rehab qualification mean that I have a variety of courses that I have to take and pass. They all have slightly different requirements - fitness instructing is 2 days, BASI is 2 days, but CPR and AED courses only need to be 4 hours.
For me, the St John's HSE First Aid course (four days) works just fine, but I will also need to update CPR and defibrillator training annually from now on. As I understand it, the HSE First Aid course will soon be updated annually, not every 3 years, but I'm not sure whether this requirement has changed yet. Also, I think the annual/biennial updates will be 1 day, not 2 days, which might prove difficult if the requirement is for a 2 day course every 3 years for BASI, as then I'd have to do the annual St John's update, find a two day course somewhere for BASI (probably the Appointed Persons course, rather than re-do the full HSE FAW course), plus do an annual assessment for my CPR/AED. I have mentioned this to St John's regarding the proposed change to annual updating for one day, but this is down to the HSE, not St John's. I really think this level of duplication is unnecessary.
FAW should include AED as a matter of course (it does include CPR). If people meet the FAW requirements and keep their qualification updated, this should be enough for BASI.
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docsquid, crumbs, that made my brain hurt. Is there a course for that? 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I qualified BASI in 1975, without any first aid coverage at all. The course comprised 2 weeks of intense ski technique/instructor training and an exam. I've refreshed the licence twice since then with no requirement for first-aid certification. If I wanted to refresh it now I expect I'd need the relevant ticket and would be looking for the minimum recognised training.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| I've refreshed the licence twice since then |
You maintained your licence for two years in the last 30+, or took two one-day refresher courses in that time? I think the current requirement is that you have to do a BASI refresher every three years now, as well as keeping your 1st aid certificate current.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, I've had extended periods of not renewing it at all. Essentially I did a season's instruction unqualified in 1974-5 (when a sizeable proportion of Cairngorm instructors had no ticket), did the BASI on Cairngorm in May '75, and then taught on snow and plastic in the later 1970s, but very little since then. For some time after 1975 I don't think there was a mandatory requirement for refreshers. I refreshed it in 1995 (Southampton) and 1999 (Wycombe Summit) - both of which were one-day refreshers - which is I think when I last paid a BASI sub.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Goldsmith, thanks. I think BASI is going through continuous change at the moment.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I think BASI is going through continuous change at the moment. |
Why is that, do you think? Is it for better or worse?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Not sure why, but perhaps the result of some key senior appointments. As a customer of BASI I think it is mainly a good thing, although there are some things which I find irritating (process issues, rather than goals they are trying to achieve). And it's not cheap.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, thanks.
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I've expressed the view in the past that teaching people to parallel etc. (which I presume still accounts for a high proportion of ski school work) does not require complex skills on the part of an instructor. Equipment advances since the mid-1970s have probably truncated the learning process still further.
So, training instructors should be relatively rapid and inexpensive. When I did BASI it was £95, including accommodation and food at the magnificent Glenmore Lodge. It should be an accessible vocational qualification, particularly for people on relatively tight budgets
The Scottish mountains - the roots of BASI - were major employers of instructors 25-40 years ago, and this was not an up-market ski region. So I think the philosophy of pricing BASI courses was geared to local realism.
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Remembering that £95 in 1975 was worth more than £95 in 2008... 
Worth bearing in mind that hardly any UK instructors still work in Scotland. Last couple of years Nevis Range have had a fair proportion of E.Europeans and others...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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P.S. To put the above cost into perspective, I recall my weekly wages as an unqualified ski instructor as £15 plus accommodation and breakfast/evening meals in the hotel we were boarded at in Newtonmore.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| I've expressed the view in the past that teaching people to parallel etc. (which I presume still accounts for a high proportion of ski school work) does not require complex skills on the part of an instructor. |
I fundamentally disagree. I think getting people to the first stage of their skiing career should warrant the highest teaching skills available. A great eye, an unshakeable understanding of how skiing works and a good repertoire of teaching strategies which reflect the needs of the learner not the preferred style of the instructor. Little of that would come from a pile 'em high approach to training ski teachers.
When I look around the hill, as I did today, seeing apparently proficient skiers with significant problems with core technique I regret that the ski instructor profession isn't a bit better at its game. Lowering the quality of ski instruction will not help address the problems I see every day I ski.
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FAQ
