 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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LIAMJ, is your link ok? Doesn't seem to go to the article you've referred to.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Chasseur, tks, have edited
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Saw that article in the times - snowbizz seem to run their own ski-school as well which I think would complicate any liabillity vs. being just a TO.
http://www.snowbizz.co.uk/ski%20school/ski-school.htm
Having read the article and whilst I feel sorry for the guy who was injured, I struggle to see why snowbizz should be liable. I think there's a phrase (can't remember at the moment) that's something along the lines of us (adults) being able to evaluate and accept risk. I for one have sometimes not followed my (ESF) instructor down a shaky bit of off-piste, but stayed on-piste as I didn't think I was upto that level..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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typical of the no blame culture really, get loads fo these kinda cases in mountain biking aswell
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Two years ago I was allocated an instructor at one ski school who, on occasion, was patently dangerous in his choice of route, speed and supervision of the students, and on one occasion I refused to go where he wanted, because he took us to the top of a run that I considered to be beyond my capabilities at that time. Later in the week he took us off piste where there were the tops of bushes poking through the powder, needless to say one of the more less skilled in the group hit a bush and broke her ankle. I later made a general comment to his boss about his technique and it was acknowledged that that's how he is.
A few weeks later I went back to the same resort and again was allocated the same instructor, this time I chose another group.
In the above case I can imagine that the skier was uncomfortable with the instructor but, perhaps for a number of reasons, was reluctant to make an issue of it. He may have been placed in a position whereby he had no choice but to ski down the run which from its description was also beyond his abilities.
Whether the tour company is liable or just the instructor I will let the learned judge sort that one out.
I suppose the lesson to learn is that if you are put so far outside of your comfort zone, say something and be brave enough to refuse to go there.
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LIAMJ, Note the bad taste 'joke' at the end by the Hon Justice Cocklecarrot (for it is he)
All seems bog-standard to me. Accident, damage. Injured party claims on his insurance, they claim on everyone elses insurance and 'M'Lud' adjudicates as he sees fit - trebles all round and another 1€ on everyone's ski insurance policy this year.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mr Anderson's barriser:
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| "The location of the accident was on a slope with a gradient which was manifestly too steep for a skiier of his experience and lack of ability" |
Presumably Mr Anderson provided the insight for this statement. If that is indeed correct, at what point does personal responsibility for one's actions depart from common sense and self-preservation? And especially knowing that he had "frequently" fallen over on an earlier trip (I assume he means earlier skiing trip and not an earlier trip on that particular holiday).
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That's my Uncle's name..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Spikyhedgehog, 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Haha, I read it and had to double-take. Not the same person though, I'm sure my dad would give him a slap if he sued anyone for something like this.
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Intresting, now if the accident had occured on say the first day of the trip I feel he'd have had a much stronger case, then there's the fact that he says on previous trips he had frequently fallen which suggests that up until th epoint he crashed he hadn't been doing so on this one, that suggests to me that the Instructor was teaching him correctly, now perhaps the instructor made an error in judgement as to how good a skier he was based on the previous, what might be 5 days of tuition and felt that he should have been capable of doing it.
Unfortunately in this country we increasingly seem to be eliminating common sense from the general population, if an instructor had suggested that we were going to go down a route I wasn't happy to do I'd find a different way down, or if I were less experienced I'd ask the instructor to show me an easier way down.
However we live in a country that recently decided in favour of a man who fell off a lader because despite his admitting that he new he shouldn't have been on the top step he hadn't been given an offiial training course to show him how to go up a ladder safely, need I say more 
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You know it makes sense.
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D G Orf, hear hear!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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D G Orf, read that about the ladder training case and couldn't believe he won ,do agree with red 27, it seems easier for the insurance companies claim against eachother and just bump up the premiums.
By the way i read the article as the fella concerned had fallen previously that week,who knows 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If you don't fall you ain't trying. If you're so petrified by the gradient that you can't do anything but fall turn around and step back out.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, Wow, what a truly humbling video. Thanks for posting it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Ditto
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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david@mediacopy, thanks, went back to watch it. Awe-inspiring, honestly one of the best ski movies I've ever seen.
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That really is life affirming stuff, brilliant!
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if an instructor had suggested that we were going to go down a route I wasn't happy to do I'd find a different way down
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That assumes a) the instructor made clear the difficulty of the route before they set off; or
b) the difficulty was obvious from the top of the run, which is not always the case.
The last time I went off-piste with a guide, after a couple of hours one of our party tired and started falling over. After the third fall our guide cut the session off and led us all back to piste. He knew he had responsibility for us, and we relied on his expertise and judgement to look after us - that is part of why he gets paid. If the instructor in this case made the cock-up then he should get sued.
The trouble with relying on common sense is that it is far from common. We may all laugh about the ladder case but I work in the building industry - time & again I've seen workmen-of-little-brain ignoring common sense even when they have received proper training. Health & safety legislation is there partly becoz people are stupid. It may be tempting to let natural evolution take the stupid ones out of the gene pool but the trouble is they would take a few of us intelligent ones with them!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There's a bit more information on this story here.
http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/news/Man-sues-tour-operator-paralysed-skiing-holiday/article-380532-detail/article.html
As a frequent client of Snowbizz I am sorry that this has happened. I wonder whether to show my wife (a more timid skier than me) or not! I've always trusted the ski school at Puy, although I have to admit there was one occasion when the children went out in terrible conditions. Nevertheless they did make it back safely - so my judgement was wrong and the ski school's was correct, I guess.
As far as this case is concerned it appears he did fall on this holiday, under this instruction. I do think you have to apply your own level of "assessing the safety" element. When I've had lessons I've not worried about saying actually this might be too tough for me. I would then expect the instructor to show me an easy way of coping with the situation and getting down.
If he wins I suppose this could have a big impact on ski instructors responsibilities. It certainly reads as though it was "one of those things" and probably could have happened on any tree lined slope - so how do you protect clients from injury/accident.
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IFIRC correctly the ski club of GB is due to be taken to court over a mans death in Verbier, maybe an SCGB member could update us?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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johnnyh,
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so how do you protect clients from injury/accident
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In the end there's only one answer, you can't so you give up doing your job.
People who are doing sporting activities have to be made to understand that there is an element of risk, now in some sports that risk is low under normal conditions (such as walking through the New Forest) but even then tthere can be risks (Lightning or wild pigs with piglets) and as such you must allow for them, skiing / snowboarding and other winter sports have a higher risk attached to them, you travel at speeds which are potentially faster than any other method of man powered travel potentially achiving speeds normally only seen on Motorways and the only hard protection you are likely to have is a helmet. If you are going to do winter sports you must understand that potentially you could die or be seriously injured, if you are not happy with doing something an instructor tells you then it is your responsibility to let the instructor know that you don't feel up to doing it.
A good instructor will work to solve the problem through building your skills and your confidence, but they must be told about your concerns in order to be able to do so, if you don't tell them that you don't feel up to doing a particular task then it's not really their fault if you injure yourself whilst doing it.
Now in this case we don't know exactly what happened perhaps the gentleman concerned dd raise the issue and perhaps the instructor ignored him, perhaps he didn't, until the case is finished we won't know and even then there may be doubts. Am I sadened by the fat that someone has put themselves into a wheelchair doing a sport I love? Of course. Could the instructor have done something different to prevent this? Possibly. Will it put me off going back to skiing? Hell no.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm failing to understand why is he suing snowbizz. Was their treatmeant of him after being injured poor?
Im not a huge fan of suing people, unless there is gross negligence. I dont believe in financial ruining a person/small business either. Whether they have been reckless or not.
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You don't sue where fault lies, you sue where money lies. Most businesses will carry insurance, insurance companies are (or were) rich therefore you sue the business.
Although I actually agree with you.
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You know it makes sense.
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Christopher, I think he's suing them as they provided the ski teacher/lessons as part of the package deal, though I'm not certain about this, his argument seems to be that they had a duty of care to ensure that he wasn't placed in a group that was too advanced for his capabilities
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Snowbizz operate the ski-school. Although to be fair, I think this only happened in the last couple of years. But they were always "closely" associated with the ski school, more so than other operators. I agree, though, why is he not suing the Puy ESI or the instructor? Perhaps the instructors were employed through ESI by Snowbizz for their holiday clients.
I do see this as a sad day if the guy wins, although I do feel for him. It certainly brings home the dangers of a quick active holiday that can certainly change your life...forever.
I think it is hard to judge if you feel as though you are in danger. Particularly if you don't really understand the sport. I suppose you would rely on the instructor to make the judgement. For example, if I was at sea, I would expect someone with more experience than I to let me know if I were actually in any danger of drowning as I probably wouldn't have any real sense of how close to death I would be.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I feel sorry for the guy and can't begin to understand what an impact his injuries and subsequent disability has had on the quality of his life.
Of course, if you're being taught to ski (or for that matter, taught to do anything) then you put all of your faith in your instructor's experience and if something goes wrong, as it did in this case, these days we automatically place the blame on the person who is our 'guardian' through the excercise, be it going down a slope on skis or learning to drive a car.
I've done it when I was in the process of being taught to snowboard; my own shortcomings become, in my eyes, the shortcomings of the instructor if things go wrong because of my inexperience. I don't want to admit to myself that I am at fault so I pass the blame onto someone else. Of course, if it's a little tumble on the slopes, where you get a bruise, then you're a bit narked, frustrated and your mood changes but that's about it. This guy seems to have been scared of what his instructor wanted him to do, going well out of his comfort zone, so that's only compounded his 'loathing' for the people 'responsible' for him after the accident happened.
I think T Bar makes a good point about suing where the money is, although you can't be 100 per cent certain of a person's motives with such an open 'blame' culture these days. Everyone wants a piece of the pie and often because they can't admit that it was themselves who were in the wrong.
I think a guy who's lost his mobility can be forgiven for suing but I still think that it's a case of "you pays your money, you takes your chances"...
... but then again, I'm not in a wheelchair.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Christopher wrote: |
I'm failing to understand why is he suing snowbizz. Was their treatmeant of him after being injured poor?
Im not a huge fan of suing people, unless there is gross negligence. I dont believe in financial ruining a person/small business either. Whether they have been reckless or not. |
The Tour Operator is the entity responsible to the customer for all of the services included in the package the customer buys.
I assume that the instruction was booked as part of his package, otherwise the case would have been thrown out before getting to a full hearing. If he booked the instruction separately, directly with the ski school, then he could only sue the ski school (or the individual instructor).
While you say you shoudl only sue if there is gross negligence, he will have to show negligence on the part of the instructor in order to win, and every time such a case reaches court, you can only determine whether there was such negligence when the court decides.
I am sure he thinks there was, while I am also sure the ski school/instructor think there wasn't.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Interestingly alex_heney, the article seems to suggest that any successful action and subsequent award against Snowbizz would be met 100% by the instructor (presumably the insurance company ultimately). This would seem to suggest (to me at any rate) that the relationship between Snowbizz and the instructor may not be quite so formal in spite of Mr Anderson perhaps booking the whole package.
As I mentioned earlier, the report leaves too much open to supposition without some of the salient facts.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Chasseur wrote: |
Interestingly alex_heney, the article seems to suggest that any successful action and subsequent award against Snowbizz would be met 100% by the instructor (presumably the insurance company ultimately).
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Yes, it does.
But then if Snowbizz were found liable, they could in turn sue the ski school for thos damages.
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This would seem to suggest (to me at any rate) that the relationship between Snowbizz and the instructor may not be quite so formal in spite of Mr Anderson perhaps booking the whole package.
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All it suggests to me is that the ski school are saying that Snowbizz will not need to sue them in turn to recoup the money if found liable.
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As I mentioned earlier, the report leaves too much open to supposition without some of the salient facts. |
That is almost always the case with reports of court actions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Seems to me that if Snowbizz engaged the services of the ski school on behalf of their client then they will be the ones to be sued in the first instance. However, assuming the ski school is properly recognised, which I'm sure they are, then Snowbizz cannot be held culpable in a "real" as opposed to legal sense. Hence if the judgement goes against them they will claim on the professional liability insurance of the ski school. Presumably those underwriters will not wish to incur yet more legal costs fighting a case they know they will lose, hence have agreed to pay up if necessary (assuming that they have).
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It is very sad to read of this chap's ski-related injury.
However, I think that we are all assuming that it is an "insurance case". It may in fact be that his insurance did not cover him for off-piste and that this is his only way to get any sort of pay-out (other than perhaps Critical Injury if he had such a policy).
It behoves us all to read the wording of our insurance policies carefully.
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Nick L, "behoves"? Rather Dickensian...
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Nick L, the death or serious injury benefit on a travel insurance policy is very small so not the issue. I suspect that his (or his insurance company's) personal injury lawyers have decided that there's a valid reason to go after Snowbizz - if there wasn't a reasonable argument they wouldn't be wasting their time and money.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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red 27, glad you liked it 
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fatbob, I agree th evideo was amazing-- there are a couple more of the same guy skiing alpine- which are incredible and another bloke also AK amputee on tele- which are really humbeling
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