I said I'd provide an explanation of what "Inside Leg Extension" is and how to do it, for those interested, so here goes.
Inside Leg Extension (ILE) is a specific type of turn transition. A turn transition is the method by which one turn is brought to a conclusion, and a new turn is begun. It is NOT the turn itself,,, it's a connector of separate turns. There are many types of turn transitions. Each has specific attributes and shortcomings, and serve specific skiing situations. This is why good skiing involves learning a number of them.
As a transition choice, Inside Leg Extension (ILE) carries some valuable benefits. While it can be used for pivot entry turns, where a big twist of the skis is used to quickly redirect them down the hill for the start of a turn, it provides it's biggest rewards during arc to arc turns (carved turns with no redirecting during the transition), and smoothly connected steered turns. And surprisingly, it also works very well on the steeps, and in steep powder, as it provides a smoother alternative to aggressive hippidy hoppidy (big extensions and pivots) skiing in that arena.
The sensation ILE provides is of an extremely connected to the snow feeling through the entirety of the transition, and into the start of the new turn. That temporary light feeling under the skis common in other transitions disappears (some call that disconnect the "float"), and it's replaced with a feeling of being locked onto the snow. This continuous connection with the snow provides a very acute feel (in the feet) for the initiation of the new turn, and an enhanced ability to fine control the quality and nature of that initiation. Great arc to arc turns are born in the quality of their initiation, and ILE allows one to really fine tune that quality.
OK, I'm going to describe ILE in two parts. Part 1 will be a KISS explanation of how it's done. I'll attempt to avoid overloading people with details unnecessary to go out on the hill and give it a go. Part 2 will be more details about why it works. Some learners need that info to better digest and apply a technique.
HOW IT'S DONE:
I'm going to describe from the perspective of connecting carved turns, but steered turns will follow similar directive. Imagine you've just carved a nice turn, and you're approaching a point where you'd like to bring it to an end. The majority of your weight is on your outside (downhill) ski/foot. Somehow you need to tip your skis off the uphill edges they're on, and back to flat so the turn you're making will stop, then tip them to the other side to begin a new turn. Try this: Without moving your pelvis left or right, softly push down on your old inside (uphill) foot. Because that foot is still tipped from the prior turn, you will be actually pushing down on the little toe edge of that ski.
It's very important to NOT move your hips uphill as you push down on your uphill foot. As you push down you will feel pressure shift from your old outside (downhill) foot to your old inside (uphill) foot. Immediately you will feel your old inside ski, the one you're pressing down on, begin to roll and flatten, and your body begin to move downhill. The harder you push down on that old inside foot, the faster you will tip into the new turn. It takes very little push down on the uphill foot to get the process going. In fact, it can be so slight as to be almost unnoticeable to observers. Feel the pressure under your uphill foot. If you feel it transferring there very gradually, you're on your way to a good turn transition.
As you tip down hill, continue to subtly extend your uphill (new outside) leg, and drive your new inside (downhill) hip forward. The continued extension of the uphill (new outside) leg will keep pressure solidly on that new outside ski as it tips onto its downhill (big toe) edge, and the inside hip drive will get you properly forward and countered for the start of the new turn. The inside hip drive while tipping into the new turn is a very important part of the forumula. The continuous outside ski pressure is what's needed to bend the new outside ski to start the new turn. Try to control your rate of tipping so that you very progressively roll onto your new big toe edge. Control it such that you can feel in your foot each small increment of additional edge angle as it occurs. As this turn initiation process is taking place, maintain good balance on your new outside ski. Keep gradually tipping to a higher edge angle till you eventually get to the angle you need to produce the shape turn you want.
If you're steering your turns,,, the same push down on uphill foot procedure is done. But when your skis have rolled down to flat on the snow, and the body has tipped downhill to the point it's directly over the skis, begin your leg steering (see one trick pony thread,,, meat and potatoes part 2). From that point follow the procedure for a leg steered turn.
Here's a good video of what they look like. Focus on the extension of the old inside (uphill) leg to begin the transition. Pay particular to Guay and Nyberg. Their execution is superb. http://youtube.com/v/TTboYL8CjaU&NR=1
WHY IT WORKS:
It's all about management of turn forces and balance. When you make a turn, you have to deal with 2 primary forces,,, gravity and momentum. Gravity pushes you down, momentum pushes you toward the outside of the turn. Those two forces combine to produce what acts as a single "resultant force", which pushes you towards the snow at an angle somewhere between straight down (gravity) and straight to the outside of the turn (momentum), that exact angle dependant on amount of momentum present in each individual turn.
It's that resultant force we need to cope with to maintain balance as we ski. If we line up our Center of Mass (CM) in such a manner that the resultant force acting on our CM is directed right at our outside foot, that is where our balance will reside. If we move our Center of Mass (CM) laterally further inside our feet, our balance point moves closer to our inside foot. If we move our CM too far toward the inside of the turn, our balance point moves inside of our inside foot and we fall down. If we move our CM too far toward the outside of the turn, our balance point moves outside of our outside foot and we topple over. Make sense? As long as we keep our CM located laterally such that the resultant force acting on it lines up somewhere at or between our feet, we remain in some form of balance and upright. As soon as it moves outside that base of support, we become out of balance and fall down.
OK, so here's how ILE works. When we're turning while balanced on the outside foot the resultant force is directed at that outside foot. When we push down on the inside foot, we're removing our outside foot from our base of support. We have nothing to balance on, so we topple over. That toppling rolls us off our uphill edges, and brings our prior turn to an end.
This only works if we don't move our CM uphill. If we move the CM uphill we move our balance point toward the inside foot, so balance is not lost, because we still have that foot to balance on. We simply continue turning, balanced on that uphill foot. To make the topple happen, the CM can't move uphill.
How hard you push on the uphill foot controls how fast you topple into the new turn. It does so by controlling how fast and much pressure transfers. The more pressure that's transferred to the uphill foot, the faster you topple, because the more outside foot support you've taken away. This is a good control mechanism to use to manage how fast you want to transition into your new turn. For learning, start out pushing softly, and transitioning slowly. Get the feel of it, develop the fine control of the initiation, then later try speeding it up as desired.
The inside hip drive is an intregal part of ILE. As you push down on the old inside (uphill) foot, and your Center of Mass (CM) begins to automatically move downhill, drive your new inside (downhill) hip forward. This move does a few very important things. First, it pronates the outside foot. Pronating that foot directs pressure to the big toe side of the foot, exactly where you want the pressure to be to best engage the turning edge of that ski. Second, it moves weight from the heel of the new outside (uphill) foot, to the front. Again, right where we want it for the start of the new turn. Third, it eliminates the counter of the prior turn, and establishes the counter needed in the new turn.
The basis of this inside hip drive is something called gait mechanics. Basically what we are doing when we make this inside hip drive is mimicking what we do when we walk. When we walk we stride out to take a step and land on the heel of our lead foot (let's call it the stance foot). As we land, the stance foot naturally rolls into a supinated (pressure on little toe side) position. While in that position, the pelvis is countered away from the stance foot, and the rearward foot we are striding off (soon to be the swing foot) is pronated. At this point in the process we are in a position that simulates our position at the end of a turn: pelvis countered, outside foot pronated, inside foot somewhat leading and supinated.
As we continue with the step sequence, we move our swing foot forward, our weight moves forward on the stance foot, and the pelvis loses it's counter. As the weight moves forward on the stance foot, that foot begins to roll away from supinated and toward a more neutral state of lateral pressure. This position now simulates a skier at neutral during a turn transition, when the skis are flat on the snow, and the pelvis has rotated back to sqaure with the skis.
To complete the step sequence, the step continues. The swing foot moves ahead of the stance foot. The weight on the stance foot moves to the front. The pelvis counters away from the swing foot and towards the stance foot. The countering of the pelvis, and the movement of weight to the front of the stance foot causes that foot to leave roll from neutral into a state of pronation. This point in the walking sequence simulates a skiers position at the beginning of a turn, where the new outside foot is pronated and fore pressured, and the pelvis is countered. .
So this is what the inside hip drive does,,, it uses the principles of gait mechanics to produce the forward pressure, pronation, and counter we need to produce a high quality turn initiation.
OK,,, the floor is open to questions.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 7-11-07 19:19; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Thanks for that explanation - the abbreviation to ILE and the frequency with which it crops up in some BZK threads as often confused me. I think I probably do a lot of that instinctively at the moment. I'll try to focus on particular movements and sensations this season to see if I can become more aware of it and see if I can get better control of it.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
FastMan, a comment more than a question, i would be interested in your thoughts.
For me ILE works very well when skiing well. But a problem i have when trying to initiate turns using ILE is that when a turn isnt going well and I am out of balance at the bottom of the turn my tendency is to sit down and waist break. The bum/CM gets back, the inner hip collapses and i bank into the turn. I see this a lot with people who "park and ride" carve, getting stuck low in the end of the turn and then pivot into the new turn.
When i am in this back position just pushing on the uphill ski to do an ILE transition my shoulders rotate the wrong way (into the hill) and cause further inner hip collapse and inner shoulder rotation and skidding.
I think that when explaining the ILE transition the inner leg push should be coupled with a forward drive of the inner thigh, hip, hand and shoulder.
Most people IMO are not as upright and forward on the skis when transitioning to the new turn as they should be. The ILE turn and tend not to get onto the new edges quick enough. Easyski had a good way of putting this in that your inner hand should always go around the corner first. Warren Smith says "keep your thighs high". Those images work for me when trying to transition correctly.
Does this make sense for your typical skier or am i talking nonsense?
FastMan, yes, that's what I understand by pedalling. For me the key is then to get my weight onto the old uphill/new outside ski as soon as its inside edge engages, thereby always getting the opposing forces in equilibrium with one another which gives the connect to the snow, and keep the hips forward à la Time Warp, so that each turn is sort of - don't know how to describe it - I'm almost travelling at 80 or 90 degrees to the direction in which my feet are going so I'm pushing across the ski as it were? Forgive my ultra simplistic terminology, I know how it feels when it's right, but don't know how to describe it (or alternatively I could just have demonstrated that I truly haven't a clue what I'm talking about). I also seem to remember someone on Epic say "make your feet chase you down the hill, not the other way round" which clearly stuck in my mind and seems to help get that opposition of forces for sticking to the snow
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
FastMan, again, thank you for a lengthy, detailed and useful post.
I now realise that it (ILE) was something I worked on a while ago. When it works well you do feel you carve every part of the turn.
eng_ch, I like the "make your feet chase you down the hill" quote, very true, you feel like your legs are somewhere behind you when doing it correctly.
I think that when explaining the ILE transition the inner leg push should be coupled with a forward drive of the inner thigh, hip, hand and shoulder.
skimottaret, thank you. That was a very astute comment. I think in my effort to KISS I went overboard in leaving out that important element of the formula. I'm going to go back and edit the post to include it, but will also comment on it here so it doesn't get missed.
The inside hip drive is an intregal part of ILE. As you push down on the old inside (uphill) foot, and your Center of Mass (CM) begins to automatically move downhill, drive your new inside (downhill) hip forward. This move does a few very important things. First, it pronates the outside foot. Pronating that foot directs pressure to the big toe side of the foot, exactly where you want the pressure to be to best engage the turning edge of that ski. Second, it moves weight from the heel of the new outside (uphill) foot, to the front. Again, right where we want it for the start of the new turn. Third, it eliminates the counter of the prior turn, and establishes the counter needed in the new turn.
The basis of this inside hip drive is something called gait mechanics. Basically what we are doing when we make this inside hip drive is mimicking what we do when we walk. When we walk we stride out to take a step and land on the heel of our lead foot (let's call it the stance foot). As we land, the stance foot naturally rolls into a supinated (pressure on little toe side) position. While in that position, the pelvis is countered away from the stance foot, and the rearward foot we are striding off (soon to be the swing foot) is pronated. At this point in the process we are in a position that simulates our position at the end of a turn: pelvis countered, outside foot pronated, inside foot somewhat leading and supinated.
As we continue with the step sequence, we move our swing foot forward, our weight moves forward on the stance foot, and the pelvis loses it's counter. As the weight moves forward on the stance foot, that foot begins to roll away from supinated and toward a more neutral state of lateral pressure. This position now simulates a skier at neutral during a turn transition, when the skis are flat on the snow, and the pelvis has rotated back to sqaure with the skis.
To complete the step sequence, the step continues. The swing foot moves ahead of the stance foot. The weight on the stance foot moves to the front. The pelvis counters away from the swing foot and towards the stance foot. The countering of the pelvis, and the movement of weight to the front of the stance foot causes that foot to leave roll from neutral into a state of pronation. This point in the walking sequence simulates a skiers position at the beginning of a turn, where the new outside foot is pronated and fore pressured, and the pelvis is countered. .
So this is what the inside hip drive does,,, it uses the principles of gait mechanics to produce the forward pressure, pronation, and counter we need to produce a high quality turn initiation.
Thanks again, skimottaret, for the prod. To answer a question you may have before you have to ask it,,, I direct focus on the hip, as opposed to the entire inside half. I want to avoid producing inside half lead with the upperbody or leg/foot leading the action. The pelvis is the crucial area where we need it to happen, so I encourage leading from there. The rest of the inside half typically comes along for the ride as needed when inside hip drive is the focus, and it helps avoid the inside leg/foot getting to far out in front, or the upper body getting twisted.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Mosha Marc wrote:
I now realise that it (ILE) was something I worked on a while ago. When it works well you do feel you carve every part of the turn.
Exactly,,, well put! That is a common sensation people experience when doing ILE. When they say that, I know they've done it properly. It's a big light bulb moment for people when it happens.
After all it is free
After all it is free
FastMan, can you do one for OLR? Please .
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
eng_ch wrote:
FastMan, yes, that's what I understand by pedalling. For me the key is then to get my weight onto the old uphill/new outside ski as soon as its inside edge engages, thereby always getting the opposing forces in equilibrium with one another which gives the connect to the snow, and keep the hips forward à la Time Warp, so that each turn is sort of - don't know how to describe it - I'm almost travelling at 80 or 90 degrees to the direction in which my feet are going so I'm pushing across the ski as it were? Forgive my ultra simplistic terminology, I know how it feels when it's right, but don't know how to describe it (or alternatively I could just have demonstrated that I truly haven't a clue what I'm talking about). I also seem to remember someone on Epic say "make your feet chase you down the hill, not the other way round" which clearly stuck in my mind and seems to help get that opposition of forces for sticking to the snow
I know, it's hard to put this stuff in words, but what you're trying to say is coming through. I think you're touching here on how the body moves forward and across the skis, while the skis continue their forward path. That "skis chasing body down the hill" analogy is a good one for encouraging the forward moving element you were describing. The inside hip drive I just described is a good way to make it happen, while at the same time ensuring the other important elements needed for a good turn to take place.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
comprex wrote:
FastMan, can you do one for OLR? Please .
Are we being piggy?
Sure, I'll do that one too. It would be a good one for contrast, and to help reinforce the learning of the balance control principles that make transitions work. Soon as we get this one sorted.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
FastMan, lordy, now wonder skiings so hard to learn. This is so much more complicated than what I do.
Isn't ILE just the same as reaching a little forward to plant your pole, a little shoulder rotation/anticipation downhill, weight transfer onto new outside ski and round you go?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
David Murdoch wrote:
This is so much more complicated than what I do.
I don't use it when pressed for time either.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
FastMan, glad i didnt get it totally wrong when sticking my neck out. I am pretty much self taught and until recently didnt understand how ILE and to some extent waist/leg steering could help me and have found some of these discussions most illuminating.
a lack of inner hip drive is a fundamental flaw in my skiing and i am really struggling to put it right. Every instructor i have had comments on it in different ways and the drills to put it right vary a lot. This has confused me and led me to believe there were multiple problems when in fact most of my problems stem from waist break and lack of inner hip drive. The two really good teachers have focused driving the hip up and forward, not with pole plants or the hands or shoulders...
I think you are smart to focus on just the hip move instead of introducing confusion with position of hands, shoulders, poles etc. couldnt agreee more with
Quote:
I direct focus on the hip, as opposed to the entire inside half. I want to avoid producing inside half lead with the upperbody or leg/foot leading the action. The pelvis is the crucial area where we need it to happen, so I encourage leading from there. The rest of the inside half typically comes along for the ride as needed when inside hip drive is the focus, and it helps avoid the inside leg/foot getting to far out in front, or the upper body getting twisted.
all big problems for me
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
David Murdoch wrote:
FastMan, lordy, now wonder skiings so hard to learn. This is so much more complicated than what I do.
Isn't ILE just the same as reaching a little forward to plant your pole, a little shoulder rotation/anticipation downhill, weight transfer onto new outside ski and round you go?
David, I know, when you try to describe this stuff in words, and try to be clear and thorough, it can look very complicated. In reality, ILE, once you grasp the concept and feel what it feels like when done, is a pretty simple transition to make. Just push down a little on your uphill foot,,, and drive your inside hip forward as you tip into the new turn,,, and WALLAH, you just made a great carved turn that feels fantastic. For a steered turn,,, just include the leg steering.
I don't mean to paint this an unrealistically rosy picture. There are many skills that need to be developed to allow all the pieces to come together. But the concept is pretty straight forward. What you describe you're doing works great, but I suspect it's a little different from ILE. The anticipation you describe suggests you're using more of a pivoted entry to your turns. ILE offers an efficient way to eliminate pivoted entries and execute a more arc to arc type turn. Not right or wrong,,, just a different option.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
FastMan, until the uphill hip drives forward and downhill, we're still on the outside edge on the uphill ski, yes?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
FastMan, mate, I have no idea. And sadly the only vid I have of my skiing is through bumps. Oh well. In a few weeks I'll see if I use what I think you're saying!
Just to be clear, let's say I'm
- starting from a traverse
- perpendicular to the fall line
- following a left turn.
My current downhill ski is my right one.
You suggest pressuring my left (uphill ski) while moving the same hip forward?
a bit like a skated turn? only in micro?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
David Murdoch, opposite hip.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar, not the way I understand it.
Edit: Inside Leg extension, if that hip doesn't come forward wouldn't he be on the bog seat?
"As you push down on the old inside (uphill) foot, and your Center of Mass (CM) begins to automatically move downhill, drive your new inside (downhill) hip forward. "
That's what the man says above.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Yoda, ah. Yes.
Edit: so the reason emphasis is on the downhill hip driving forward instead of entire pelvis moving as unit is to make it clear that the uphill hip socket is the pivot, not the midline of the body?
This is the main thing (but sadly not the only thing ) I'm working on in my skiing at present. A progressive stacked inside leg extension, constantly feeling for a solid platform, big toe edge, propelling old outside/new inside hip forwards and along flow-line, not being afraid to incline and freefall, so feeling like I'm pushing up, behind and away at the ski.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Ah, ok, in which case I reckon my description if followed subtle-ey enough is the same thing. Maybe. I'll try and capture some vid once it snows (YeeHaH!)
After all it is free
After all it is free
slikedges, I only worry about feeling for the initial little toe edge.... once you do that and extend from that engaged little toe edge the big toe edge seems to take care of itself as long as you keep body alignment correct.... (this is the beauty of using gait mechanics - your body already knows how to do this)... I did have trouble keeping counter Ok .... but the inside hip drive sorted that (or seemed to...??Fastman??)
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
comprex wrote:
Yoda, ah. Yes.
Edit: so the reason emphasis is on the downhill hip driving forward instead of entire pelvis moving as unit is to make it clear that the uphill hip socket is the pivot, not the midline of the body?
Yes, Comprex. the pelvis rotates primarily about the uphill femur head, because the uphill foot is the one anchored to the gound.
In driving the downhill hip forward, a fore balance state is achieved on the uphill stance foot by moving the CM forward while the stance foot responds to that forward push by sliding slightly back. The combination of those two simultaneous happenings produces a nice fore balance relationship between the stance (new outside/ uphill) foot, and the Center of Mass (CM). Also, driving the new inside hip forward eliminates the old counter of the prior turn, and creates new counter for the coming turn. Done right, when combined with ILE, it can be a real WOW experience.
Remind me,,,, at some point we should talk about how counter contributes to effective angulation.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
slikedges wrote:
This is the main thing (but sadly not the only thing ) I'm working on in my skiing at present. A progressive stacked inside leg extension, constantly feeling for a solid platform, big toe edge, propelling old outside/new inside hip forwards and along flow-line, not being afraid to incline and freefall, so feeling like I'm pushing up, behind and away at the ski.
A good thing to be working on, slikedges. Heed what Little Tiger mentioned about pushing down on the little toe edge of the uphill ski as a first move. The foot will then roll to the big toe on it's own as your body tips downhill and into the new turn. Focus on moving the old inside hip forward. That forward hip move, combined with the automatic lateral CM movement ILE causes, will move the CM into the new turn along the flow line.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
David Murdoch wrote:
FastMan, mate, I have no idea. And sadly the only vid I have of my skiing is through bumps. Oh well. In a few weeks I'll see if I use what I think you're saying!
Just to be clear, let's say I'm
- starting from a traverse
- perpendicular to the fall line
- following a left turn.
My current downhill ski is my right one.
You suggest pressuring my left (uphill ski) while moving the same hip forward?
a bit like a skated turn? only in micro?
Yes, now that you got the "which hip?" thing sorted, your description looks good. Remember, when you try these, to keep the push down on the uphill foot soft,,, the body tip into the new turn gradual,,, the inside hip drive a progressive push, not a sudden jerk. Do get some video!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
FastMan, the video problem is that I'm usually behind the camera...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Christ, this all looks complicated
Surely if you weight the little toe edge of the uphill ski you'll just carry on carving, but on the inside edge of your uphill ski, monoski style? And simultaneously weighting the inside leg while pushing the inside hip forward sounds like a recipe for twisting the knee to me.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
FastMan, I am getting a bit confused as to which side of the hip should be initially driven forward, both sides of the hip will move forward with this move but as a mental trigger which side of the hip should inititate.
From early on you are clearly saying driving the NEW downhill inner hip forward, (eg, right downhill side when exiting a left hand turn) but when talking to slikedges (who i think has the same problem i do) you say
Quote:
The foot will then roll to the big toe on it's own as your body tips downhill and into the new turn. Focus on moving the old inside hip forward.
If i am reading that correctly that is the uphill side.
you also said YES to to DaveM "You suggest pressuring my left (uphill ski) while moving the same hip forward? "
I was told the latter and to focus on getting the old inner uphill hip up and forward and i am wondering if it is because my old inner hip had collapsed and it needed to come forward before i can effectively drive the NEW downhill inner hip forward. I think this stems from too much counter and waist breaking but not sure. I understand the concept and sorry to be anal but am trying to understand how to teach it if someone has a flaw in their skiing.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
You've got to crossover, so you always project your hips inside the turn. Projecting them to the outside is going to get ugly, very quickly.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
yes agreed, but which side of the hip do you lead with when doing the forward hip move?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret, as you say, they are connected to they will move at the same time. For me the mental trigger is my inside hip, and when I have time to think about it I try not to rotate my pelvis, just project forward and sideways. If you extend your old inside/new outside leg this is going to happen instinctively unless you make a big effort to ride the 'wrong' edge.
I thought that ILE was something much more complicated than it has been described by Fastman. Anyone who carves a turn does it (inside leg is flexed, then extends as it becomes the outside leg), and I think focusing on ILE is simply a way of getting on the new edge early in the turn. That's a good thing, certainly for me, but ILE is not quite as groundbreaking as I thought it might be.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
My mental trigger is that same as you I drive the old inside/new outside leg forward. But this is opposite to what Fastman was intitially saying...
This for me does create some rotation of the pelvis (probably because I sit back and am countered) and gets my weight on the shovel of the new outside ski while driving it forward.
the interesting (but perhaps not groundbreaking) bit is coupling the leg extension move with a forward drive. That seems to be a reoccuring theme in race training.
Surely if you weight the little toe edge of the uphill ski you'll just carry on carving, but on the inside edge of your uphill ski, monoski style? And simultaneously weighting the inside leg while pushing the inside hip forward sounds like a recipe for twisting the knee to me.
Only if you balance on that uphill ski!
It's a very long write up and it took a lot of patience to read through it...
Somewhere in the middle, you'll find:
Quote:
This only works if we don't move our CM uphill. If we move the CM uphill we move our balance point toward the inside foot, so balance is not lost, because we still have that foot to balance on. We simply continue turning, balanced on that uphill foot. To make the topple happen, the CM can't move uphill.
and (I'm quoting them in reverse of how FastMan wrote it):
Quote:
When we push down on the inside foot, we're removing our outside foot from our base of support. We have nothing to balance on, so we topple over. That toppling rolls us off our uphill edges, and brings our prior turn to an end.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Sorry, skimottaret, I see where your confusion stemmed from. When I said this to David Murdoch,
Quote:
Yes, now that you got the "which hip?" thing sorted
I was referring to a later post in which he had found out it was the old outside (downhill) hip which is driven forward,,, not the uphill hip, as he had originally thought.
Understand, guys, counter is a necessary element in high level carving. It can be seen most all photos of World Cup skiers. Because counter is used, the old outside (downhill) hip enters the transition slightly trailing. Driving that old outside hip forward eliminates that counter being employed in the previous turn, and establishes a new state of counter for the coming turn. I call the process the pelvic shift. The move also moves the entire CM forward in relation to the new outside foot, producing a fore balance position for the start of the new turn.
abc, thank you for reading my description so carefully
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
FastMan, I thought that counter-rotation came from the waist, rather than rotating the hips into the turn?
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar wrote:
I thought that ILE was something much more complicated than it has been described by Fastman. Anyone who carves a turn does it (inside leg is flexed, then extends as it becomes the outside leg), and I think focusing on ILE is simply a way of getting on the new edge early in the turn. That's a good thing, certainly for me, but ILE is not quite as groundbreaking as I thought it might be.
It is what you move first that is important... even in Outside Leg Relaxation transition you have to extend that inside leg sometime.... the difference is which moves first... and so how much "float" versus "connectedness" you will feel.... It is the transistion that is different....
Using both ILE and OLR transitions at some point in the turn the old inside leg must extend and the old outside must retract... else you would look really weird.... So both involve eng_ch's "pedalling" at some point in the turn... the transition though is a different animal in each...
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rob@rar wrote:
FastMan, I thought that counter-rotation came from the waist, rather than rotating the hips into the turn?
Counter and counter-rotation are not the same AFAIK
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
little tiger, does it really happen first? If you extend the inner leg without moving your centre of mass and without flexing your outer leg all at the same time surely you are going to be out of dynamic balance?
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