 Poster: A snowHead
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I was struck by a comment by easiski elsewhere about how downsink- poleplant - popup -rotate was now outmoded technique. While I have no doubt that modern ski shapes do not require the extremes of technique that may have been required in the past, are all such techniques confined to the technique museum or do they remain a valid part of the armoury? e.g. the above strikes me as something useful to still use in steep variable snow.
Taking things further what about the impact that current and future equipment changes have on technique (Or "skills") e.g. once rocker is commonplace in recreational skis does a stacked stace become less important? Does the game change such that surfy turns rather than the perfect carve become the pinnacle of aspiration? Can tailpushing become fashionable as an acceptable way of skiing wide rides?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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All things in moderation, use the right tool for the job, etc, etc. You're right that an explosive pop and big rotation has a place in steep terrain. The problem comes when that way of steering is taught as an appropriate way to ski blues and reds. Choosing the right blend of skills to match the terrain you're on and how you want to ski it should be an important part of a skier's development. I know I spent way too many years trying to ski different terrain with the same blend of skills, mainly with very little success.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I concur with rob@rar, it's a different horses for different courses thing. No techniques should ever be cast away for good. They all, at some point, find situational usage in all mountain sking. We add to the basket of options, we don't replace.
And you're right fatbob, equipment can very much dictate technique. Look how the massive impact on technique the shape ski ushered in. I'm sure the future will hold more of the same. As long as a skier has the skill base in his/her pocket, those changes will be easily met and enjoyed, just as they were with these clown feet skis.
Also, technique can be simply skiing in a way that a person enjoys at the moment. Playing on skis, if you will. We need to be cautious of becoming trapped in a right/wrong technical mentality. To me, much of the enjoyment I find in skiing is in the freedom to experiment, explore, and play.
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| FastMan wrote: |
And you're right fatbob, equipment can very much dictate technique. Look how the massive impact on technique the shape ski ushered in. I'm sure the future will hold more of the same. As long as a skier has the skill base in his/her pocket, those changes will be easily met and enjoyed, just as they were with these clown feet skis.
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Sorry, what do you mean by "clown feet skis"  The only thing I can think you may be referring to are Kneissl Big Foot (which were precursors of Snowblades/Ski Boards).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, FastMan, fatbob, While variety is good and useful, and I do agree that one should not become too fixated on certain techniques I find it sad and essentially very bad for the unfortunate student to see instructors teaching a knee flex (sitting down), plant the pole and then leap up onto the heels to push the tails round as the normal and correct way to ski. We have these wonderful skis now - to teach people to ski them as though they were straights is cheating the student IMV.
An explosive unweighting and rotation in the deep and the steep is not the same thing at all as teaching the 2 week skier to perform these antics. While it was necessary at the time and with the skis we had then, it's incredibly tiring and inefficient to do it now on carvers.
fatbob, When skiing fats on piste it's perfectly possible to do a nice steered turn on the snow as you would see if we get the video of me and Fastman skiing synchro at the summer camp up on the snowmediazone. (note to Masque). Violent movement should always be the last resort.
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easiski, I don't think anyone's in disagreement (rare for a BZK thread!). I just thought it was interesting how what is considered good technique has changed, obviously the emphasis which most instructors here are keen to place on a skills toolbox is better than a form based model for adaptability as skiing continues to change.
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I am shocked at how stilted some people are on skis... going through turns with little or virtually no transition is UGLY ..IMV
I accept that is may be the 1st port of call when starting up ..and a goal to get to after a few weeks..but much more than that..???
and I have seen a few skiers with a good few miles under their belt and I think WTF..!!!
GS turns shouldn't have a tail wipe though...
Surf turns take commitement off-piste and a stable ski...and Speed...!! which is not something you might commit to easily if the snow is heavy
building blocks is what is all is... IMV
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| easiski wrote: |
| An explosive unweighting and rotation in the deep and the steep is not the same thing at all as teaching the 2 week skier to perform these antics. |
But who was suggesting that? In the past five years if I've seen that at all it's only been from an unreconstructed ESF old-stager, certainly not from any BASI teacher (good or bad). I am surprised though by the number of skiers who are very competent on piste, but fall apart completely when they get into something variable - as they just haven't had enough exposure to the "open skills" environment of unpisted snow. The very last place you should be trying out untested skills is at the top of a 45 degree couloir (and OK, I guess no-one's suggesting that either), but just as you evangelise your technique development exercises on simple blues, those jump (which then lead into pedal) turns should be started on slopes where the terrain is not too intimidating, and before the "closed skills" habits of piste skiing have become too ingrained.
We really need to get away from this "pinnacle of aspiration" idea at every occasion possible. Whether we want to call variations in the way we ski different techniques or a different blend of skills it amounts to the same thing - you ski different snow in different ways: as the simplest e.g. the harder the snow the more one-footed you need to be, the softer the more two footed. Carved turns are appropriate for hardish snow when you want to go fast - nothing more, nothing less. Put an edge in on middling crust though and you can create trouble for yourself: if it's only just thick enough to hold your weight a pretty good technique is to use as little edge as possible and steer as smoothly as you can over the top with a flat ski (but always ready to respond if you break through). Surfy turnes are already definitely a vital part of the armoury, particularly where the snow is variable and a bit crusty (enough to grab the ski but not enough to suport you). When it gets really soft you need to move to a more water-skier's balance - as that's virtually what you're doing; on one pitch I skied (or more correctly "failed to ski") the season before last the only way to ski it was to hang way over the back of the tails (although this is where I guess a rocker would have helped a lot). I was very pleased to see in FastMan's balance DVD's that we were encouraged to paractice skiing both extreme fore and extreme aft.
And I'm sure there are even situations where wedeln may come in useful!
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Maybe a bit off-topic but still... Talking about equipment, I'm really surprised about all the talking, on internet forums, behind the bar etc., about how cool and easy carving (yeah yeah maybe it's not exactly right word for this, but still) is. Skis just guide you down the course. But then I come to ski course, and when riding up on chairlift I normally look down the course how people ski. And guess what? 99% still ski "old" way. They sure have new skis, but they have no idea about proper technique to use this new skis. Same people who are talking behind the bar how easy it is getting skis on edge, have no idea how to really put skis on edge once they are on snow. They actually might think they do ski this way, but then again, it's really not so hard to stop, look up and see, your trails don't look anything close to two "rails" down the course 
And from my personal experience, and I have been skiing, including about 20 years of racing, for more then 30 years, it's far from easy to ski "new" way properly, especially when course gets from flat blue to steep black. Maybe people should really spend a bit more time with instructors and less time on forums (I'm not talking about anyone in particular now, but in general). Personally I still use any chance I have, even after all this skiing I have done till now, to get some advice from any of friends racing or coaching in ski World Cup. I don't care anymore about being faster, but it sure feels better to ski properly.
PS: Sorry for off-topic
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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primoz, I think most people on here would give up this forum tomorrow if it meant they could ski whenever they want!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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GrahamN, Yep, the ability to match appropriate technique to the prevailing snow and terrain conditions is key, and having a big 'toolbox' of technique to draw upon allows this adaptability. I don't believe that there is generally a right or wrong way to ski, it's more a question of how effective they are.
From a teaching viewpoint it's important to help skiers develop their own 'internal' feedback so that they know if they are forward\aft, and know what's happening under their feet, skidding or not. It's only when a skier has accurate internal feedback that they can make appropriate changes to their technique to adapt for the snow and terrain underfoot.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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GrahamN, Fatbob was taking what I said in another thread, which was about old school ESF teaching as it happens and asking if the technique was actually wrong - or that's what I understood. He then compared the movement I described (as I see it being taught often to low intermediate skiers) with a similar move that an expert skier might make in a certain snow/terrain situation. The two are not comparable, and nothing in this thread has anything to do with BASI, ENSA or anything like that. I thought I was further explaining those comments!
As one of the major champions of almost entirely skills based teaching (along with Fastman) I should think my attitude to varied technique and options would be self-evident and has been well documented many times in the past.
primoz, Of course (first post).
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, sorry my original reference to your thoughts just the inspiration on which my musings started not a direct questioning of your opinion. I agree totally with your view that it is not a helpful to introduce to near beginners as a primary on piste turning method.
I wonder what national bodies are doing to address the next generation of equipment changes, perhaps as they also turn to a skills focus the question becomes irrelevant. I happened on this article by the late, great Shane McConkey which discusses the need for a mental reset to adjust to the idea of sliding not carving turns with reverse sidecut skis which I found interesting (not only for the somewhat bizarre Xlink to skimottaret's thread on Head Supershape Magnums  )
http://unofficialsquaw.com/words/2009/01/26/brain-floss-by-shane-mcconkey-reverse-camber-skis/
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, I quote from your link,
"These skis will change the way you thought you were supposed to ski powder (Why would I want to do that?) , minimize the effort you put into your skiing, (Why would I want to do that?) and greatly improve your powder skiing experience." (Why would I need to do that?)
FIS Slalom skis are the ultimate powder sticks.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
FIS Slalom skis are the ultimate powder sticks. |
..... for the Dieter und Hans bum wiggling brigade Which role wold you choose in Aspen Extreme - Trevor Eve or Martin Kemp?
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fatbob, I wouldn't mind a bit of Bryce Decker, thanks. Woof, woof!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| http://unofficialsquaw.com/words/2009/01/26/brain-floss-by-shane-mcconkey-reverse-camber-skis/ |
I started reading, but stuff like:
"Begin your powder turn and then instead of hitting your edges hard to carve a turn...." and "change the way you thought you were supposed to ski powder"
meant I never made it past 1/2 way.
[edit to remove grumpy influence on original post.]
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 10-08-09 22:40; edited 1 time in total
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fatbob, did you read that McConkey article closely? Kind of strange how he contradicts himself. First he says that shape skis sink underfoot more because of the narrow waist and wide tip/tail. He calles it the "pool cover" effect. Then later he says that the tips and tails sink more, because the ski's camber drives them deeper into the snow than the center of the ski, "no matter how much pressure you put on them".
And that whole thing about "sliding" the skis, instead of carving them, and how much faster it is. Apples to apples, sliding (if he means getting the skis out of directional harmony with the direction of travel, and sliding sideways) will always be slower than carving. The greater floatation will enhance speed, but sliding never will.
He also talks about how when carving with shape skis in powder you have to bounce up and down, in and out of the snow, during the transitions,,, and how it's less efficient. If it were true you had to do that he would be right,,, but it's not true. I ski slalom race skis in powder, and if I'm going for clean arc to arc turns I don't have to bounce at all. If fact, if I was bouncing I'd be skiing poorly. Just a light ILE tips you into the new turn effortlessly, and off you go.
He was a great skier, but for an article that's billed as the bible on Spatula usage it seems, to be kind, a bit lacking. Was he a sponsored spokesman for Spatulas? It really sounds like he was struggling to make a glowing case and endorsement for them.
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If you had to 'bounce' to steer in powder I'd never strap into a board again  It's just about speed and pressure.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, BTW, when was I violent ? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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http://www.skimovie.com/msptv?nid=1358
Shows what he means by sliding - esp the turn when he comes out of the chute about 10 seconds in (although he is on the Pontoon rather than the Spat). The way I understand it sliding the skis is not seen as quicker in itself but it is a device that allowed him to gun it and then shut his speed down. Hence he was able to ski things in a faster, more aggressive manner than he was previously able to do. Obviously it is open to debate how much of this really applies to people who don't ski full time and who ski places where a full R/R ski is practical.
Disclaimer: I ski like a chicken but have a little experience with rockered skis (but not R/R).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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mckonkey's idea of a good time included sideslipping at 40mph on a 45 degree powder slope using water skis. so you need to bear that in mind when considering his views on equipment etc
and i think this partly goes to fatbob's point. we have skis now which allow this sort of tomfoolery so what does this do for the so-called paradigms of ski instruction? not much for most holiday skiers is probably the answer. however, i think this does lend additional credence (if it were needed!) to the skills based approach - ie here are a bunch of skills, get proficient with them the go out, mix them up and have fun - even if that involves sideslipping at 40mph etc. in contrast to a form based approach (here is how to carve tram-lines while looking like an Italian maestro de sci)
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| Arno wrote: |
| we have skis now which allow this sort of tomfoolery so what does this do for the so-called paradigms of ski instruction? not much for most holiday skiers is probably the answer. |
Exactly right. There are few people on snowHeads who ski like McConkey skied. In fact there are few people in the world who ski like he skied, and I doubt many of them are heading down to the local ski school office to book a couple of private lessons.
| Arno wrote: |
| think this does lend additional credence (if it were needed!) to the skills based approach - ie here are a bunch of skills, get proficient with them the go out, mix them up and have fun - even if that involves sideslipping at 40mph etc. |
I've been teaching side-slipping skills a little bit over the last couple of weeks, although we don't have a 45° slope at Hemel so I've had to make do with side-slipping on the uphill leg only or while being towed down the slope by someone (skiing backwards) in front of you.
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar,
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I've been teaching side-slipping skills
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Try a little jump, or foot shuffle to start the slip...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ski wrote: |
rob@rar,
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I've been teaching side-slipping skills
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Try a little jump, or foot shuffle to start the slip... |
Thanks, hadn't thought of a little jump to start. I'll try next time I'm skiing, although that won't be for at least 10 days (wah hoo!)
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I've been teaching side-slipping skills a little bit over the last couple of weeks, although we don't have a 45° slope at Hemel so I've had to make do with side-slipping on the uphill leg only or while being towed down the slope by someone (skiing backwards) in front of you. |
Good for you - it's a very under-taught skill, and very essential ......... The whole ESI here once slipped a very steep couloir that had avalanched on the way down to St Christophe - just wide enough for a pair of (2m) skis. Phew!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I've been teaching side-slipping skills a little bit over the last couple of weeks, although we don't have a 45° slope at Hemel so I've had to make do with side-slipping on the uphill leg only or while being towed down the slope by someone (skiing backwards) in front of you. |
Good for you - it's a very under-taught skill, and very essential ......... The whole ESI here once slipped a very steep couloir that had avalanched on the way down to St Christophe - just wide enough for a pair of (2m) skis. Phew!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You guys would be surprised how many people who've been skiing for many years haven't developed their side-slipping skills, at even the most basic level. Side-slipping encompasses a package of foundation edging skills that every skier would benefit from owning.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Good for you - it's a very under-taught skill, and very essential |
Yep, very true. In the long term, rushing past this skill area does students no favor.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| You guys would be surprised how many people who've been skiing for many years haven't developed their side-slipping skills, at even the most basic level. Side-slipping encompasses a package of foundation edging skills that every skier would benefit from owning. |
Idiot skiers, always playing catchup to us boarders
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When I was first taught to ski side slipping was an imporatant element to learn.
The instructor said, If you can side slip you can ski anywhere, those words have got me down many a nasty slope over the years 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
Having said that I was actually looking forward to trying those big Black Crows out in deep snow in the winter ..... but Jutta's sold them. 
