 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Masque wrote: |
| Which is more important to your skiing enjoyment, the drive to master any hill and condition however unready you are or to know and understand you limits and take pleasure in staying within them? |
Are those our only choices? What is most important to me is that I continually extend my limits despite the fact that I know I will never master every hill and condition. I extend my limits not by the application of dominance, aggression or power, or by ignoring my fears but by increasing my understanding of skiing and seeking to apply that knowledge as best I can. I don't think that is an age related (or significantly limited) process. In a battle between technique and physical prowess, technique will win every day...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Are those our only choices? |
I don't know, strength and fitness are VERY subjective to the individual, mental attitude can take the individual far past their physical capabilities . . . usually, but not exclusively, in our youth . . . so please, I invite you to add choices.
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| Masque wrote: |
| so please, I invite you to add choices. |
OK, ta very much. What is most important to me is that I continually improve my understanding of skiing, both intellectual and physical. That opens up more of the mountain, easily compensating for any decline in strength, suppleness or a more cautious approach than when I was young and stupid.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Masque, For me, and probably a lot of others here, I like to be able to do the best I possibly can in everything that I do - a perfectionist I suppose. That's why I always ask questions, take lessons etc. But, in sport, we are all limited, to a greater or lesser extent, by our physical ability.
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Masque, I like to stay within my limits - because when it comes to sporting stuff I have a history of being pretty accident prone (in fact pretty much any physical activity is a tad risky)... because of this i do like to understand my limits.... and expand them constantly! 
I truely believe that in skiing most folks do not really come close to their real physical limits but only to those they artificially impose on themselves due to their choices in how they spend their time.
My role model is Frank - Frank "retired" in his 80's (sold his shop) and spent every day of the subsequent season skiing - He skied when everyone else stayed off the snow due to the poor conditions... Frank skied the whole hill.... Did he ski "aggressively" - not at all... but he skied smoothly and fluidly.... BTW Frank is still racing Masters at around 86 years of age....
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Don't really care... I want to do as well as I can and I find skiing is the type of activity that allows one step forward and maybe it might claw that back from time to time.
In a lot of ways it is like golf... always able to bite you. This is, of course, what makes it so addictive and makes us comes back again and again and again.
But I don't go for the theme that everyone must push themselves...they can if they want to and if they are happy with what they can do and do do, then fine, no problem on my part.
Skiing is more than a series of contrived moves, positions and stances, and it is also an active holiday to be enjoyed.
If you want to set yourself goals every year, then that sounds good enough to me, but enjoyment is the key. If you want to improve then you are going to have to maintain a physical level, maybe improve it, but it isn't an essential must-do, if you don't want to or can't do that.
Too much nonsense is spouted on improving... if you are happy cruising between bars and having a good time, then don't be made to feel you are not performing as you should.
You are allowed to get out of skiing what YOU want
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| JT wrote: |
| But I don't go for the theme that everyone must push themselves... |
Agreed. One of the great things about skiing is that it offers a little bit of something for just about everyone. My girlfriend's skiing hasn't changed much in the last 10 years but she enjoys her ski holidays just as much as I do.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar,
Of course, there are pratical restraints, in that you might not be able to ski with certain people or go where they go...but if that doesn't matter so much, then no problem.
The problem might come about when you say, "I want to go down here"... and they really really don't fancy it, but as long as you meet up later or can handle this sort of speration without toys flying all over the place, then it can all work out.
My main skiing group's main issue is keeping us all together, it gets tougher every year and will eventually lead to us planning seperate holidays... but I would never try to force them to do something....been there, done that. I might compromise somewhat, as I really enjoy their company.
I can see troubles ahead tho'.. 
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| JT wrote: |
| Of course, there are pratical restraints, in that you might not be able to ski with certain people or go where they go...but if that doesn't matter so much, then no problem. |
Yes that can be an issue, but both of us are happy to compromise when we have ski trips together so it's not a big problem for us.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I am not the sort of person who wants to "dominate the mountain". However I do take pleasure in learning and refining new techniques and exploring new elements to skiing. To do this you have to push your limits. Some people like to step way outside their limits, but I like to push them by small increments, and hopefully by learning the technique to cope with the new element of my skiing. When I push my limits, even slightly, I am slightly scared too. Very scared achieves nothing, but a little scared is good and helps me to progress in small steps. The best instructors I have had have helped me to be that bit scared, not terrified.
Having said that, I also like sometimes to just cruise around with other people and enjoy the scenery and the company (and the vin chaud) 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, you don't agree... ?
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Anyone who is properly balanced and has refined edging skills will not require to be more than able to stand up.
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Fine words, but doesn't stack up for 99% of the skiing population, I'm afraid.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wot rob@rar said.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, laundryman, Granted, but you have to admit that it's the general case - as 2 of the previous 3 male posters on this thread have proved!!! (& they're both lovely guys)
JT, Only because they don't/won't understand what can be achieved with only a little work, it doesn't take much you know.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| easiski wrote: |
rob@rar, laundryman, Granted, but you have to admit that it's the general case - as 2 of the previous 3 male posters on this thread have proved!!! (& they're both lovely guys)
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Yes, and it wasn't too long ago that I took a similar approach with my skiing 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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easiski, You are putting words into my mouth.
I said this
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If you want to improve then you are going to have to maintain a physical level, maybe improve it, but it isn't an essential must-do, if you don't want to or can't do that.
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and from that you got this..??
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don't agree. Refined technique does not require improved physical condition. Improving your skiing does not require "the assumption that the individual is physically capable of performing these feats of control? " neither does control. Anyone who is properly balanced and has refined edging skills will not require to be more than able to stand up.
Once again the male of the species seems to think that strength has something to do with it! Sorry boys - it is not a requirement
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I don't equate fitness with strenght in this context......
edit: to tidy up the display of the text..not content.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 3-11-08 12:24; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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JT, Yes - but my point is that although both fitness and strength can help, neither are essential elements to good skiing, or indeed to improving your skiing. If anyone has good balance and technique it won't matter if they do or don't have any fitness or strength. Good skiing is not about dominating the mountain, or being able to ski the roughest terrain/snow etc. (and I know you know this), it is about grace, balance, timing, refined skills etc. The more of these you have the more enjoyment you have for longer in your life. Skiing should be a lifelong skill and pleasure, but sadly many people will give up when they run out of strength and fitness, because they did not take the time to acquire the skills to continue beyond this.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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You will not pass an ISIA exam today unless you are in good physical condition, and not carrying any excess weight. You also need a certain amount of strength and aggression to be able to recover, and bring back under control, any high speed ejections out of the rut line in the bumps, for example.
I know of several candidates who failed repeatedly, until they improved their fitness, diet, weight and strength.
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Masque,
Still trying to push the limits and managed to bend a ski pole in the bumps last Friday (on my 40th). Even the best back off in some way (e.g. the Herminator used to be seconds ahead of the field now he's seconds behind it).
I'd agree with veeeight and say that to be at the top of the game you need technique and fitness / strength. For us 'competitive mere mortals' (recreational skiers) I believe the trick is to try and improve technique so it more than makes up for our fitness 'growing old'. Seeing a well matured skier/boarder float with grace through nasty conditions is as pleasurable to watch as a youngster storm through a set of steep and deep rutted bumps.
| Quote: |
| We don't stop skiing/boarding because we grow old; We grow old because we stop skiing/boarding. |
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm not sure veeight lives at altitude of he's in Whistler  I believe the car park at Alta is higher than the top of the Peak at Whistler.
Every individual is different - witness varying interpretations of the word "aggression". I'm sure we can all agree that fitness, technique and attitude form part of the mix of elements which go into whether we ski a particular run or line well. If we're hungover or tired or can't be bothered the rsult will be differnt from the same run in identical conditions when we are alert and focussed on best possible technique execution. Similarly an identical pitch with identical snow may provoke vastly different approaches if there's a cliff at the bottom compared to a nice gentle run out.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Masque wrote: |
| Is it truly just a inward looking subjective choice to have fun or should we spend our few weeks on the snow striving for betterment? |
I don't think the 2 have to be mutually exclusive. You can seek to improve and have fun at the same time.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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david@mediacopy, I agree.
There are obviously two extreme ways of approaching skiing - just go for the holiday and enjoyment, and don't worry about technique once you can get about. That's fine, but the problem is, as people have mentioned, that often you don't enjoy yourself all the time as there are some things you can't do as well as others, or you get very tired and can't ski all day because of technical issues that need to be addressed.
The other extreme is to take it all very seriously - every single run, turn, move is analysed, and every spare moment is spent refining technique. That in itself can be enjoyable, but it does mean that sometimes others who are with you get pretty fed up when all they want to do is get to the restaurant in time for lunch.
I guess most SH's tend towards the more technical side, but I think most of us are somewhere in the middle. I get great enjoyment out of trying to improve my technique, and try to do this most of the time, even when I'm cruising around with others. However, there are times when I just want to let go and have a blast, and times when I just want to take it easy, cruise and look at the scenery and not worry about what I'm doing with my arms/legs/feet/body/weight distribution etc. I suspect I should probably take things a bit more seriously if I want to get the BASI Level 2 Technical but skiing IS our only holiday too!
I'd say you need to do both to get the best out of your precious few weeks on snow each year, but where you sit on the continuum is up to you and the people you ski with.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Masque wrote: |
| DB, Good to hear that, but remember you've a wee sprog to be responsible for and it doesn't matter how well you're insured. Perhaps one day you'll head here over the pond and have a slide in the Rockies. But back to fitness . . . |
Been busy got two sprogs now although do try to tame my actions with them in mind. Will get over to that side of the pond one day too.
| Masque wrote: |
And here's the point of this thread (not just Hurtle's reticence to talk about her leisurewear wardrobe), where should we, if at all, draw the line between our physical limitations and our enjoyment? Is it truly just a inward looking subjective choice to have fun or should we spend our few weeks on the snow striving for betterment?
I feel a poll in my waters. |
Someone with excellent balance and technique has very few physical skiing limitations on all but extreme terrain. Getting tired skiing moderate terrain indicates that my technique is off. Technique/balance can be improved without killing yourself. For example last week the wind on the glacier prevented most of the lifts running for a few hours and only one chairlift for one blue run was open. Skiing the run with two skis became boring but on one ski it was great fun (esp on the less able leg). When the piste is busy skiing through the chopped up crud at the side can also be "technique building".
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Masque wrote: |
Here's where I have a problem with both veeeight and Charlotte; as they are both instructors, living at altitude and spending a large part of their lives in physically active pursuits. It is a fact of life that they will be (apart from easiski's disgusting habit ) intrinsically 'fitter' than their subjects and cannot offer a truly objective comment in regard to their punter's fitness level. I've been subject to Charlotte's tender mercies and consider myself to be physically strong but woefully lacking in aerobic stamina but yet she had my leg muscles in spasm after a couple of hours. Yes she was teaching me a subtle control technique that once mastered improved my skiing far beyond my expectation but at the same time it demanded a personal physical input that approached my limits and left me with sore legs foe a couple of days. I'm not complaining as it gave me a confidence and technique to ski with other  s and not feel a muppet. |
This is something I've been on about for a very long time. Notice how the answer always includes the caveat "with good technique"?
"Good technique" are, in Wikipedia terms, weasel words.
With "good technique" I can do anything, prove anything, ski 7 feet of pow on 45mm waist skis, or ski dual snowboards on 50 degree slopes.
In fact, I propose that any argument or post that uses the words "good technique" without at the same time stressing the relevant skills be summarily disqualified. The BZK answer to Godwin's law if you will.
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And here's the point of this thread (not just Hurtle's reticence to talk about her leisurewear wardrobe), where should we, if at all, draw the line between our physical limitations and our enjoyment? Is it truly just a inward looking subjective choice to have fun or should we spend our few weeks on the snow striving for betterment?
I feel a poll in my waters. |
See if you can work in a learning model.
This one is a bit interesting since "fear" and "aggression, dynamism, energy" as defined by the other thread seem to be mental cues for moving between states 3 and 4.
http://www.businessballs.com/consciouscompetencelearningmodel.htm
Whereas physical fitness as you say seems to be a tool for achieving state 3 from state 2.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Masque, I wouldn't say I was fitter than most of my clients. I'm probably fitter than most mid-50s british women. I am acclimatised to altitude of course, and you skied with me on the glacier so probably suffered to a degree with that. However I have (and I'm not banging my own drum here), superior balance and edging skills and better timing than you do. You struggled because you are having to go back to re-learn stuff (to a degree), that you should have been shown a good while ago. In fact I think you proved my point!  A poll in your waters must be very uncomfortable. 
veeeight, Of course - but you'd have to consider that level of skiing 'competitive' or 'professional' IMO, rather than 'recreational'. Surely it's not necessary for most holiday skiers to aspire to ISIA level to improve their skiing. However most could gain far more enjoyment from their holiday if they did put a little more into learning good technique. (with apologies to comprex, )
comprex, "With "good technique" I can do anything, prove anything, ski 7 feet of pow on 45mm waist skis, or ski dual snowboards on 50 degree slopes." Yes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| easiski wrote: |
| Of course - but you'd have to consider that level of skiing 'competitive' or 'professional' IMO, rather than 'recreational'. Surely it's not necessary for most holiday skiers to aspire to ISIA level to improve their skiing. However most could gain far more enjoyment from their holiday if they did put a little more into learning good technique. (with apologies to comprex, ) |
Yup - hence my view in the other thread:
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You can be a good recreational tennis player just putting around on a sunday afternoon, in the same way that you can be a good recreational skier just relaxing and turning down the slopes.
However, if you want to play tennis as a sport at a high technical level, and if you want to ski as a sport at a high technical level, then the utilisation of energy becomes all important, both as an input into the equipment, but more importantly harnessing the energy output from the equipment. This is where it becomes intrinsically linked to aggression.
You will never see a centre court wimbledon final, both men and women, played without aggression, in the same way that good dynamic skiers that harness the energy from the equipment will be aggressive, both mentall and physically.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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veeeight, I personally think that "harnessing the energy output from the equipment" is rather/very much more to do with finesse, balance and application than any form of aggression or strength. I speak as a bit of a lightweight who doesn't have a great deal of "weight" to throw around - and while I am fairly fit, I wouldn't win any prizes in the weightlifting arena.
Additionally, someone in this thread or the other suggested bumps as being in need of "aggression" (however defined). Hmm, I find that skill, technique and timing are all massively more important - I reckon I am at my best in bumps when I am making minimal control inputs and allowing the skis, terrain and gravity to do all the work.
Just my 50 centimes...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Murdoch, I think I advocated "aggression" in bumps - I interpret it as "manning up" and being positive in getting forward and poleplanting rather than allowing myself to get in the back seat, mental cues rather than actual aggression.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I find pootling very effective on bumps - but then I'm not going for any Olympic medals
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fatbob, You never considered 'womaning up'??? (See discussion on other thead).
veeeight, I don't think tennis is a good comparison, you have to run around playing tennis. Before my arm got bad I went back to some tennis tuition and found it exhausting - I was not fit enough. (That should satidfy Masque, ). Surely riding horses is much more appropriate. It helps to be strong and fit, but if you have the right 'feeling' and balance etc. you can ride a much more difficult horse than someone who pushes the horse around! Golf is also a good comparison: if you have a good swing you can hit the ball a long way off the tee, if you can read the green well you can put better - none of which actually requires any strength or fitness to do well. You'e young, you look pretty strong in your video, you're a bloke, you will have a totally different mindset! (I don't mean to be patronising, but it's true).
David Murdoch, Well said.
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Well it's official then. veeeight is a young, male, proper skier while the rest of us ski like old women.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DB, oi, less of the old!
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Masque, i think your right in that you need to have a level of athleticism if you want to try to push your performance in any sport. Skiing can be recreational, or a sport where one trys hard to put in a good performance. I like V8's tennis analogy. If you view skiing as a sport then you do need to be mindful of your physical limitations, especially older ex athletes or sportspeople who back in the day did whatever.....
I do get a lot of blokes huffing and puffing at the end of an hour or two, unfit, trying too hard and going from bad to worse. trying to "man up" and get on with it.... Ex rugby players are the worst for this...
easiski, is bang on in that skiing is mainly about balance and if you are in balance and can work the edges you dont neccessarily need to be "agressive" or "powerful" or "dominate" the skis.
If you want to take your skiing to higher levels of performance it helps to get into the right mindset which varies by individual, for me being aggressive does help amp it up but if any fear comes in my skiing goes horribly wrong... Others may need to have an empty mind and just flow...
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FAQ
) will add to the sum of human knowledge, so I shall shut up. 
Sadly, most holiday skiers want to learn the next thing before having satisfactorily 'got' the basics. (Not 
