 Poster: A snowHead
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Ok so the thread title is somewhat misleading as there is no face breaking in this thread.
I have just returned for a great few days skiing in Tignes and we were witness to a poor chap returning his hire skis to be confronted with the ominous 'you have cracked the sidewall and these skis are now fit for the dustbin'. The next stage quite obviously was 'you will be charged for a new pair of skis'. This is obviously fair and although quite often the insurance cover will still sting the user for ~ £50 excess (i.e. value of 90%+ of claims) the majority of the charge should be reclaimable.
Here though is my concern: the charge to the poor chap was full wack, i.e. the value you'd pay if purchasing from an expensive high st chain such as Snow & Rock. At this point I wondered whether this was necessary. Yes the shop must reclaim their loss and by all means the user understands the risks undertaken when skiing hire gear but ....shouldn't the hirer charge the wholesale price rather than RRP.
Any views appreciated because however good a skier you are and however much care you take, your luck can run out at any turn!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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plectrum, I always take out the hire shop's insurance. It is only a couple of quid a day, and removes any worry about this scenario.
I've trashed a few skis in my time. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Jonpim,
I fully agree but many people feel that they have their own insurance and so don't bother, a little like carte neige accident insurance, it is only a couple of euros a day miles better than most standard insurance but I betya very few british skiers in france ever take it.
I had a super holiday but I guess just felt somewhat sorry for the guy who was also feeling similiarly jovial until wham - 500euro please. Let's say the ski industry works on 40% profit margin then this means the skis cost 255 euro to replace ex vat. This is a huge difference.
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>>Let's say the ski industry works on 40% profit margin
I'd be astonished if the margin were that low. 50% seems to be the minimum these days for luxury goods.
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I've always regarded hire shop insurance as a clear scam but I suspect most people take it just to reduce hassle. It is clearly disingenous to charge full price for damaged skis, wholesale less a wear & tear allowance would be more appropriate.
More in point should not hire shops take on a certain amount of wear & tear risk themselves. I've been irate when charged for a puncture on a hire car that had clearly done 15000 miles so the tyres were definitely not in tip top condition to start. If a hire shop hires stock out early season then they must expect a certain number of base and edge dings? I'm with the rental car "scratch" scam here - anyone tried parking a car in France for a week without getting the smallest scratch on it?
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| plectrum wrote: |
| Let's say the ski industry works on 40% profit margin then this means the skis cost 255 euro to replace ex vat. This is a huge difference. |
no, the skis will have a value they must bring in from rental, doesnt matter if they only cost 255 euro, it's what they should bring off rentals that is the loss.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stab, no, cause the ski's replaced and then able to rent out again !
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fatbob, No the skis were damaged because the skier was out of bounds, the piste were impecably groomed without a single stone. I have no issue whatsoever with the hire shop expecting the skier to take full responsability but just wonder why it needed to quote full RRP.
stab, maybe brew a coffee, take a break and come back when you are awake  - replacement should be within 3 days and perhaps it is necessary to wack on a delivery charge of say 30 euro.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Libertine, shops can't necessarily buy one pair of skis. They pay wholesale prices and order in wholesale quantities.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Strikes me as a little excessive, but to balance things up a bit I'm just going to shout out to interpsort in val claret, Tignes. On my recent trip rented some skis sunday arvo, skied on them monday, glacier closed tues/wed and when I returned wed am i got charged 1 days hire as that was all I was able to use...
Fair Play I thought, although I doubt it would have been the same highseason - the drags in the village would probably always have been kept open...
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Lizzard, I doubt that - shops get wholesale pricing agreed at the beginning of a season and this will relate to achieving a set amount averaged out. There may be a delivery surcharge but that will be about it.
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You know it makes sense.
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plectrum, Shops will get wholesale pricing, but they may not be able to reorder rental spec skis. I would agree that the loss to the shop is unlikely to be exactly the RRP.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It is a bit of a scam and the shops in tignes are well known for it. You can repair quite a lot of damage too, such as broken edges.
You can even get a single ski from a lot of manufacturers (although they do tend to match at least the high end skis).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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i'd be amazed if they couldn't repair a ski with a cracked sidewall and return it to their rental fleet
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stab, ooh controversy!!! I would hope that the ski will be replaced as the shop had a small but good range and so needs another version.
davidof, I guess it also depends on your workshop and this was a small independent. I also expected that single replacement skis are possible but didnt want to say due to uncertainty.
I trashed an Atomic Metron over 4 years ago in Tinges (a b5i if memory serves) and the shop just rang Atomic stated that the product showed a manufacturing defect/weakness and gave me a brand new ski.
They then requested that this time I could try not to ski to much offpiste especially because the conditions were fairly poor.
So I guess it is swings & roundabouts!
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| plectrum wrote: |
stab, ooh controversy!!! I would hope that the ski will be replaced as the shop had a small but good range and so needs another version.
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No, it has a huge range, I'm talking about binning the normal rentals . Maybe the test skis would be replaced. I've certainly thrown out test skis because people have used them to go down a road by the looks of it.
Where I am the insurance is in the price so you got to really do something stupid to get any big hassle for breaking them, I didnt know you could hire without insurance, that seems to be asking for trouble imo.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Oh its a pure money making scam!!! They pay now where near shop price for the skis and people wonder why some of the French resorts have a bad rep 
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My travel insurance covers me for stolen or broken equipment but if I was in such a situation as the case above, I would want to take the 'damaged' skis away so I could get them repaired and get some use from them.
I take it these were brand new, this season's latest skis that they took out of the packs to give to the customer? If not, not only will they will have a write down in book value but the customer would be liable for the replacement cost, not the retail cost. French law could be different but in the UK the hirer can only claim replacement value or cost of repair and betterment cannot be claimed (this year's model for last year's model which was broken).
Mad not to be insured though, I've met several people who have had skis stolen.
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| Ordhan wrote: |
| Oh its a pure money making scam!!! They pay now where near shop price for the skis and people wonder why some of the French resorts have a bad rep |
a semi-scam perhaps. If you trash or lose a pair of skis it's down to you but, clearly, the shop only pays something like 60-65% of the rack rate and, of course, the pair they rent you have probably already earned their money back many times over. Bindings are reuseable too. Think I'd stand there and argue (and then give 'em a Glasgow kiss). Anyhow, there is another dark side... I'm hearing that some shops steal their own skis back, mug you for their full value on the assumption that they're insured and then bring them back out after you've departed the resort. If true, it's the biggest scam going.
Austria has a less money-grabbing attitude... one of our group lost one ski in heavy powder last season. He had to give up looking and return to the Intersport shop with just the one ski (luckily our last day anyway). Shop agreed to charge a reasonable amount for just one ski (100 Euros) and took into account age of ski and chance of the lost ski turning up during the season. We all thought that was fair and reasonable. So, we go back.
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plectrum, saw a mate suffer the same in Les Brevieres a few years ago. Caught a stone coming down Sache, last run of the holiday. Massive crack in the skis, no insurance and they tried to do him for €400 to replace the skis (this was mid-March), which we thought was a little excessive. Suffice to say that we came to a less expensive arrangement with the store, but have all taken the hire shop's insurance ever since!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Heh it was the new 09 model and really early in the season, so the hire shop obviously hasn't made much money on them as yet and needs the skis for the winter season. As said no issue charging the guy because he ultimately broke the ski no different to hiring a car and putting a huge dent in the door. Also the guy got to take the skis away so he can fix em up and claim on his insurance. Just had some issue with the price tag!
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Had a lucky escape last season. Caught someone walking off with my OH's skis. When a challanged the woman she just said "But I couldnt find mine". Charming. Now we make sure we always mix our skis up.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| plectrum wrote: |
| Heh it was the new 09 model and really early in the season, so the hire shop obviously hasn't made much money on them as yet and needs the skis for the winter season. As said no issue charging the guy because he ultimately broke the ski no different to hiring a car and putting a huge dent in the door. Also the guy got to take the skis away so he can fix em up and claim on his insurance. Just had some issue with the price tag! |
Well yeah there is a difference with the dent on the door bit - a dent on the door doesn't prevent a user from continuing to use the car for the purpose the original hirer wanted - in this case the op described the skis as only being fit for the dustbin. Clearly the hire co con't hire out the car again with a big dent, but it wouldn't be that hard to get that fixed at a lowish cost relative to the cost of the vehicle / lease agreement. So the equivalent might be a broken part of a binding...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Most insurance companies will not pay up for unattended skis being nicked; will they?
I have a policy in life never to pay for extra insurance: 5 year warranties on dishwashers; collision damage waivers on hire cars (to reduce the excess from £500 to £50) etc. etc; I have the maximum excess possible on car insurance; income protection schemes etc. etc.
However, for exactly the reason OP states, hire companies' own ski insurance I do buy. Saves all the arguments, and potential scams. In a foreign language...
Certainly under English law they would not get away with charging that much; the hire shop would have a duty to mitigate the hirer's loss. (Same as if you come home to find the flat upstairs is dripping water into your house, you must put a bucket under the drip to reduce the damage.)
So the replacement cost is the cost to the shop of ONE ski, less bindings. Less an element for wear and tear - so if a £550 set of skis normally does 20 weeks before being sold for £50, then you get a £25 reduction for each week's use they've already had.
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If you have to pay full price to replace them - you have bought them - so you should get to take them away and have someone bodge them up if possible...
But that sounds a total rip off.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Our ski shop charges a euro a day, per pair of skis. At that price - 1.5 pints of beer for a week's hire, it seems a no-brainer.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Don't pay!! Unless they're brand new skis, in which case to some degree it should be taken up with the manufacturer? (Unless you were doing something really silly with them!!). If the skis are well used hire skis at some point they're going to get trashed... Why should the unlucky customer / customer's insurance company using them that week have to pay for them?
Argue with them, and if they insist you pay then you pay what it costs the shop to replace, less 50% per season (that's what an insurance company will reimburse you for old skis). They shouldn't be making money on it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| plectrum wrote: |
No the skis were damaged because the skier was out of bounds, the piste were impecably groomed without a single stone. I have no issue whatsoever with the hire shop expecting the skier to take full responsability but just wonder why it needed to quote full RRP.
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Im sure I don't need to say there is no such thing as out of bounds in Tignes. I have never heard of a condition of hire being no off piste - and can't imagine it, if this had not been explicitly stated.
I once hired some Volant Chubb test skis for a day but the shop said they dd not do insurance on test skis. Result: I delaminated one of them on a rock. I had to buy them but they did discount them 50% and tthrew in a pair of the previous year's bindings. I got them re-glued and they lasted about another 8 or 9 weeks of skiing before they delaminated again. Not bad value really!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| James the Last wrote: |
>>Let's say the ski industry works on 40% profit margin
I'd be astonished if the margin were that low. 50% seems to be the minimum these days for luxury goods. |
If 50% was the minimum margin then I guarantee you there would be Ski shops in every street corner. With the Internet and suicide pricing by some retailers the margin is down to around 15-25% at best.
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Ardsian, not really the point, the RRP is at 500 euro and this is at standard max industry margin, not internet discount margin RRP.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It is a con.
The skis were probably at the end of their life anyway.
Also is their any proof that it was this person who damaged them and that it wasn't a previous person?
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plectrum, Find out how much the shop propose to charge and then phone your credit card company from the shop there and then to formally dispute the payment. That will alert the shop to the fact that you will not be f*c*ed about.
The CC co. will demand proof of the actual cost of replacement skis and if the shop has been trying to pull a fast one they will be rumbled...
Of course if you have knackered the skis you will be liable if uninsured, but only for the ACTUAL replacement cost of a pair of 2nd hand hire skis... and that ain't much
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FAQ
not helpful, but 
All insurance for loss/theft imposes a 'duty of care'.Should you leave your ski's unattended/unprotected,and admit to it,you can wave goodbye to any claim.You need to take 'reasonable' steps to 'reduce' the possibility of theft.Should the worst happen,be sure to report the loss(to the local plod)as soon as poss(certainly within 24hrs).Remember,you 'did' use a ski lock and 'they' cut it off 