 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm very concerned about a ski company I had the misfortune to work with for about 2 weeks last year.
Not wanting to be associated with them I left after only 2 weeks having discovered i.r.o 50,000 Euro of outstanding invoices including the ESF, ski lift company, etc. I still have copies of these invoices.
I contacted ABTA but never had a response! I spoke with the local French gendarmerie who were interested but until a complaint was received from a local supplier they wouldn't take it further.
Do I name and shame them?
What do Snowheads think?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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probably the owners of Snowheads would rather you didn't but equally everyone else would rather you did!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Leave it to their suppliers and/or banks to pull the plug....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Give us a clue!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A skiforum is not the place for putting people out of a job.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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marksavoie, 50k is only a prob if they are small. For a big TO this is very small change and they are nearly always late in paying (deliberately so) - more fool the suppliers for allowing the debt to build up.
Can't see what a civil dispute would have to do with the police.
Abta wouldn't be interested as long as the bonding is OK.
Got a grudge?
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As above. Most companies are deliberately late in paying invoices and even if they are in financial difficulty it's not a criminal matter unless there's some fraud going on. I don't think this is the place for idle speculation to be honest but if they owe you money get some legal advice...
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What sort of annual taking for this comapany to warrant blowing a whistle for just 50,000 Euro outstanding invoices?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Whitegold, I agree and it could be a few jobs. As much as we'd love to hear the scoop, I think its got to be kept in the dark. A one sided trial by forum is totally inappropriate. Shame as I love gossip.
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| Quote: |
Not wanting to be associated with them I left after only 2 weeks having discovered i.r.o 50,000 Euro of outstanding invoices including the ESF, ski lift company, etc
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That's a mad reason to leave a job. Peanuts if that's all the o/s invoices. marksavoie, I think all you were seeing was normal business practice going on. Not a reason to get so excited. So... what's the beef?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| marksavoie wrote: |
I'm very concerned about a ski company I had the misfortune to work with for about 2 weeks last year.
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What exactly is your concern?
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Not wanting to be associated with them I left after only 2 weeks having discovered i.r.o 50,000 Euro of outstanding invoices including the ESF, ski lift company, etc. I still have copies of these invoices.
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There is a good chance you have broken the law by taking those copies. They are confidential information belonging only to the company they are presented to and the company presenting them.
And what is your issue with the fact that a small amount of invoices were outstanding at a particular point in time? (50K Euros will probably only be a few weeks worth at most unless the company is extremely small).
If the TO has 100 clients per week (most TOs have more than that in most resorts), and the lift pass is 150 Euros (lower than average), then lift passes alone could come to 15,000 Euros per week.
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I contacted ABTA but never had a response!
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Well it is nothing to do with them, so I'm not surprised.
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I spoke with the local French gendarmerie who were interested but until a complaint was received from a local supplier they wouldn't take it further.
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Of course. What would yo expect them to have done? It isn't up to the police to interfere in the business of private companies unless they are breaking criminal law.
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Do I name and shame them?
What do Snowheads think? |
You have not said anything to suggest there is any "shame" to name them for.
You haven't told us how big the company is (which would put the 50K Euros in perspective), nor how long the invoices had been outstanding for (anything under 30 days, they are not even overdue, and most largish companies will push payment dates to the limit).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sounds like marksavoie may have a bit of an issue with company X. To bring up a 'last season's' issue, they must have really got under his skin.
IMHO, leave it be, move on.
| marksavoie wrote: |
| I'm very concerned about a ski company I had the misfortune to work with for about 2 weeks last year. Not wanting to be associated with them I left after only 2 weeks having discovered i.r.o 50,000 Euro of outstanding invoices including the ESF, ski lift company, etc. I still have copies of these invoices. |
Its likely that under French law you are guilty of theft of company property, invoices belong to them. You may also be in breach of employee confidentiallity. If these are last years then, they are either paid or the suppliers are ok with the debt. A good company, gets in cash early, pays bills late, its called good credit control. It's up to the suppliers to put the pressure on.
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| I contacted ABTA but never had a response! I spoke with the local French gendarmerie who were interested but until a complaint was received from a local supplier they wouldn't take it further. |
Rightly or wrongly, you'll have come across as an employee with a grudge.
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| Do I name and shame them? |
If you do, and it causes them any issues, I suggest you get a good barrister, and dont leave any trail that leads to you.
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| What do Snowheads think? |
Move on. If it does go pear shaped, you can then have the satisfaction of saying "I told you so". 
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Hi, can anyone help... I am a medium sized ski business and had the mis-fortune of employing someone last season. I paid him for 4 weeks work but after two weeks he left without notice, stole copies of business invoices and has slandered me and my business and got my daughter pregnant. In addition to this, he lied on his application and it was clear when doing the job that he was not as qualified as he had made out.
Question is, should i be stupid and waste peoples time - as I have not got over it a year on - and name and shame him?? 
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You know it makes sense.
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Libertine, I've sent you a PM. Please please don't mention me on here. D'Oh.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Some interesting responses.
Grudge? For myself not really. For the small traders who are left out of pocket and with weakened cashflow, yes. For the "reputation" that British companies have in a small French ski resort - yes. For the potential clients who may find the company they've booked with goes bust and they lost their money - yes. I suppose I have a misplaced view of what is morally right or wrong.
ABTA - clearly I got it wrong - I thought they were there to protect the customer if a company ran into financial difficulties and couldn't repatriate their clients. Litigation - je m'en fous.
On balance I will now keep my powder dry (not just the white stuff). I will await this winter season with interest and see if they survive. I'll be working with my local French guides bureau.
Well, I'm now waiting to get out on my ski rando gear. I was out yesterday (walking) on what started as a beautiful clear day with views of Mont Blanc and indeed all the peaks with snow above about 2500m. It was quite mild but it looks like later in the week will see snow at lower altitudes.
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Poster: A snowHead
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marksavoie, has the company failed to repatriate clients? And the mere fact that there are a bunch of outstanding invoices doesn't necessarily mean that the company is in financial difficulties, just that they haven't paid their bills yet. It certainly isn't any kind of criminal offence - the Gendarmerie probably thought you were a loony.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| BMF_Skier wrote: |
. If these are last years then, they are either paid or the suppliers are ok with the debt. A good company, gets in cash early, pays bills late, its called good credit control. It's up to the suppliers to put the pressure on.
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sorry, but I think that a company that has to use its suppliers as a bank cannot be a "good" company. A good business model should allow for prompt payment of invoices. A company is only as good as its suppliers.
With regards to the OP; I think there is far to little info to be able to make a constructive comment.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I agree with Frosty...I think a companies reputation is all they've got......treatment of suppliers builds that reputation!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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marksavoie, Firstly , a very warm welcome to  . Stick around ..
A somewhat strange first post and there is way too little information to comment upon the individual situation but a few generalisations may help you making up your mind as to what to do; although trial by forum seems totally unacceptable in this situation.
- You worked with a 'ski company' ... if by that terminology you mean a Tour Operator, you will find that many of them fly 'close-to-the-wind'. TOs are more sensitive to cash flow than most ( its a function of their business model) so you may have been seeing normal business practice ( and the payment terms may well have been agreed with the suppliers in question and you do not KNOW otherwise). That indebtedness may have been agreed whatever you think based upon invoices/statements.
- The size of outstanding debts has no relevance whatsover ... I know companies who owe millions/billions .. it has no relevance to their liquidity.
- Any TO who was genuinely 'in trouble' a year ago as the season started would have gone under by now .. they would have been cash-rich early in the season. So your assumptions may be wrong.
- Taking invoices is unacceptable.
- Your first course of action should have been to address your concerns to the mangers/owners. If you did that , an excellent start and you know their position. If not then your other actions are totally out of order.
- ABTA's job is to look after the interests of Travel Agents .. not the consumer, despite what you may read and how they may 'present themselves'. Im not surprised they ignored your approach anyway. ATOL would have been more appropriate IF there was any wrongdoing , and it is they who 'bond' TOs (IF this was a TO).
- You appear to live in France. In which case you should know that there are a number of excellent ex-pat 'Lifestyle-oriented' companies. Some of their owners also post on here. However the very nature of people's reasons for wanting to be here ( lifestyle) means that there are a number of poor business people who struggle with culture and French business standards , but not necessarily moreso than poor businesses in the UK. .... I wouldnt overly worry about it, the French can look after themselves.
I dont think its appropriate to continue any discussion of this on here .. just some well-meant advice from someone who knows the 'industry', lives in France and spends too much time on here.
-
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd just like to say that IMO this topic is a credit to the snowHeads community.
A concern voiced without giving away too many details : a well-balanced, measured and diverse response
- thar'll be no hangin' here today folks 
btw. I'd tend to agree that in the normal course of business of a travel co. 50,000eu is not a large sum of money to be outstanding during the season.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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But who's going to pay for the ESF's new uniforms?
WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE INSTRUCTORS??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!
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| marksavoie wrote: |
Some interesting responses.
Grudge? For myself not really. For the small traders who are left out of pocket and with weakened cashflow, yes. For the "reputation" that British companies have in a small French ski resort - yes.
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It is an unfirtunate fact of life for small traders throughout Europe (and probably most of the world) that larger companies will hardly ever pay invoices before they have to. Which normally means they will negotiate as long as possible for payment terms, and then will use those terms to the limit.
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For the potential clients who may find the company they've booked with goes bust and they lost their money - yes. I suppose I have a misplaced view of what is morally right or wrong.
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No, but you have a misplaced view of when a company is in trouble.
€50K of outstanding bills is NOT enough to indcate a company is in trouble unless it is very small. And if it had been in trouble because of that amount early last seaosn, then it would undoubtedly have gone under by now.
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ABTA - clearly I got it wrong - I thought they were there to protect the customer if a company ran into financial difficulties and couldn't repatriate their clients.
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And why do you think that means they would take any interest in the fact that a company had small amounts of outstanding invoices?
They are interested when and only when a company is in serious danger of going under in the next few weeks.
They don't step in to get a company out of trouble, nor do they proactively do anything regarding companies which may just possibly be in trouble.
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I saw a small piece on travel industry and the credit crunch/interest rates on TV. The owner was against a drop in base rate because a large proportion of his profit came from holding clients cash and getting the interest on it. Stands to reason he'd put off paying his creditors as long as possible.
The company I work for is in manufacturing engineering. Its a matter of huge frustration for myself and colleagues that we seem to always be on hold with a large number of our key suppliers because we haven't paid the bills. We're not going down the pan anytime soon.
In our case its just the usual accountancy games turning 60 day payment terms into 90.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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alex_heney,
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| Re: ABTA .....They are interested when and only when a company is in serious danger of going under in the next few weeks. |
They dont taken an 'interest' even then ... protection is done through the CAA ( ATOL). ABTA ( and the FTO which is now part of it) are essentially industry ( TAs and TOs) not consumer bodies whose only consumer interest is possible intervention where their standards are breached ( pretty difficult even if you know what they are) and pointing consumers at an independent arbitration service if you complain to them.
rich, Its part of the 'business model'... not many other industries you pay in full so far before receiving the service/product that I can think of. Stranger still that so many of us book as early as we can to 'secure' our seats/beds 
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Having "floated" this topic I feel it best to let it die now; but:
For the record:
1. I made my views very clear to the company concerned.
2. The o/s invoices were from the end of the previous ski season so around 6 months o/s - so undoubtedly pushing the 30 or even 90 days a bit. The payment delay was certainly NOT agreed with the companies concerned.
3. I don't like going into a first meeting with a company (i.e. ski lift company) and being embarassed to find that they weren't paid for last season!
4. I had electronic (scanned) invoice copies as part of my duties.
5. Yes, 50k is not a large sum but for small "artisans" being owed money can put them out of business.
6. Attitudes to debt are very different in France cf. UK - the UK sees it as a normal part of doing business - generally not so in France.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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marksavoie, if a lift company is unhappy with your payment (or lack of it) they usually refuse to supply more passes until the dosh is forthcoming.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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marksavoie,
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| Attitudes to debt are very different in France cf. UK - the UK sees it as a normal part of doing business - generally not so in France. |
I agree that attitudes to personal debt are very different. OTOH, and in my experience , attitudes to intra-business debt are more laissez-faire than the UK, and they know more excuses as well.
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Attitudes to debt are very different in France cf. UK - the UK sees it as a normal part of doing business - generally not so in France.
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MGM is pretty notorious for screwing small businesses in various ways - including very late payments. An attitude which can make the avowals of the young M Giraud about his Savoyarde credentials quite hard to stomach and might explain the rash of stencilled pigs which appeared on all their local signboards five or six years ago. That and their habit of selling apartments to foreign trash, of course. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Attitudes to debt are very different in France cf. UK - the UK sees it as a normal part of doing business - generally not so in France.
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MGM is pretty notorious for screwing small businesses in various ways - including very late payments. An attitude which can make the avowals of the young M Giraud about his Savoyarde credentials quite hard to stomach and might explain the rash of stencilled pigs which appeared on all their local signboards five or six years ago. That and their habit of selling apartments to foreign trash, of course. |
There are two parts to the group now, MGM apartments which is owned by P&V and the MGM construction part. Persistent rumours about MGM construction's financial health (http://www.mgm-constructeur.com/) all strenuously denied by M. Giraud. I imagine that builders are always a couple of sales away from bankruptcy so don't set too much store in them.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 11-11-08 15:03; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I once worked for Coca cola's second biggest customer in the UK, agreed payment terms were six monthly in arrears, which suited both companies as discounts rebates overiders etc were negociated on actual sales.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| I once worked for Coca cola's second biggest customer in the UK, agreed payment terms were six monthly in arrears, which suited both companies as discounts rebates overiders etc were negociated on actual sales. |
Really......................60 days settlement for coke I thought and 21 days after month end for Pepsi (ok Britvic)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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marksavoie, I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but how do you know they didn't pay their outstanding debts, eg 10 minutes after you left? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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chris, when perhaps they themselves recieved some dosh from their own outstanding invoices they had been waiting people to pay them?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FastEddie, They buy their own uniforms - have no choice about it or the make or quality, pay a premium, and all the ones here are very unhappy about it!
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FAQ
