 Poster: A snowHead
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I began skiing at 6 in 1959. My first and only significant head injury was at the age of about 22, skiing down the Vallee Blanche, when I had to evade a skier in front (we were all following the guide's tracks for speed across the gentle glacier). The skier fell, I diverted, my speed decelerated quickly enough for me to take a head-plant and the 'compact' skis (as they were then called) wheeled around my back. A ski tail hit the back of my head and I gushed blood. The guide bandaged me up and we carried on.
I don't know at what ages people experience serious or fatal head injuries. We know that a number of notorious ski fatalities have occurred with people hitting trees, but I don't know if young children have been exposed to that. These fatalities are rare and are usually avoidable by learning how to ski around trees reliably or by avoiding skiing near them.
The Ski Club today sums up the recent case of a fatal collision between two skiers:
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/news/story.asp?intStoryID=6155
| Quote: |
| Here at the Ski Club we advocate helmet use for the under 13s |
I wasn't aware of the Club's official position on this, until reading that. The case in the news story strikes me as almost unique. An incredibly low risk, though tragic. It did not involve skiers under 13 and I'm wondering how many children have actually died from head injuries?
'Helmet creep' seems to be affecting our sport in a big way, and it concerns me that one day helmets might become mandatory for no particular reason other than the helmet industry pushing for them (they must be delighted with the sales growth to date). There seems to be another irrational rush to buy helmets every time a significant (though extremely rare) story breaks about a skier's head.
Does something significant happen to heads/risks between the ages of 13 and 14? I have two kids who skied for years without helmets. I guess I could have encouraged them by wearing a helmet myself, though many helmetless adults put their children in helmets. Are there other sports (horse-riding and cycling obviously don't apply) where helmet use is advocated for children but not adults? Is 13 a recognised 'cut-off' age in other sports?
Rather touchingly, the girls now insist I wear a helmet when cycling. Rather too often I go out without it. It's nice to have the wind rushing through your hair, but it's also a good idea to avoid brain damage.
| Ski Club of Great Britain wrote: |
| However, research carried out by Norwegian scientists last year seemed to suggest that wearing a helmet had measurable benefits. Of the 3,277 skiers and boarders surveyed , there were 578 head injuries (17.6%) and the scientists claimed that the effective use of a helmet would have reduced the risk of head injuries by 60%. |
I'm not aware of this research and the very high percentage (compared to anything I've read before on this) quoted. Does anyone know the source and scientists quoted?
It's important that the helmet debate is advanced on the basis of reliable epidemiology. Mybe we could have a helmet debate which is based on authoritative data from as many peer-reviewed pieces of research as possible, rather than the usual subjectivity. I'm not sure if the International Symposium on Safety in Skiing (ISSS) is still going, but it has held many useful conferences based on sophisticated ski injury data from around the world.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith, I wore a helmet growing up - as at the time in Scotland a child bore much risk of being smacked on the head by loose T-bars, skis (no brakes in those days) and ski tips (as skis were so long, the tips, even when carried correctly could take a kid's eye out if you weren't careful - not that a helmet would protect against that).
I would suggest that the SCGB is correct as the collateral risks to kids have changed but not disappeared. The argument for adults is far from as clear. Could the tragic case in Germany been avoided completely had both skiers had complete situational awareness and not possibly limited by the restricted field of view afforded by many helmets? Who knows...?*
*Obviously, "only the Shadow", but that's a different plot entirely.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Interesting
I guess some of the main factors here is that younger skulls are softer, and that whereas adults may be able to make mature risk-benefit assessments for themselves - kids aged 12 and bleow are not be able to.
In order to sort this once and for all you would need a prospective study where skiers of all ages and behaviours were randomly allocated to helmet/no-helmet and morbidity/mortality was looked at over a period of years. Unfortunately the study would also have to be either double-blinded (assessors and skiers not aware of whether they wearing a helmet or not...) or a false reason for the study given to the subjects - so knowledge of the intervention and outcome did not skew the results...
So we are stuck with case-control (retrospective) studies for now - which is less than perfect.
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As a helmet users Mandatory rules would not affect me but I do think people have a right to choose no matter what I think. I like wearing it but I do from time to time drop it at the bottom of a lift and carve like lightning to feel the wind rush by 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The quoted percentage of 17.6% seems, on the surface at least, to be high. Certainly higher than I would have imagined. Who were the scientists representing? What was the initiating point of their survey? As a sample for a survey, the figure of 3,277 seems at first hand to be a reasonable number.
What isn't clear is what is determined as a head injury i.e. nature, cause, circumstance. For example, if someone received a bump on their head from a chairlift safety bar, a helmet would have reduced the risk of injury just as much as being aware of the potential problem in the first place.
If a helmet would have reduced the risk of injury in 60% of head injuries, what was the nature of injury that 40% would have not resulted in protection?
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helmets on small children has an impact upon the position of the child's center of gravity and related balance and may cause falls that result in alternative injuries to those when wearing a helmet, so is it safer or not, who knows ?
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We and our friends have ALWAYS made the kids wear lids. No debate. The kids we ski with do lots of jumps etc and are ptretty decent, safe and quick skiers. Because they often push their limits they do have the odd tumble. They have now realised this and I suspect none would ski without a lid given the choice.
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Frosty the Helmetted Snowman, that's obviously the opposite position I took when my kids began skiing in the early 1990s and helmets were less prevalent (they were a common sight in ski school, but not mandatory).
I guess kids can start to understand statistical risk at the age of 13, yet apparently their brains are then no longer worth protecting!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith, clearly you have problem with the Ski Club advocating things you don't like...like the use of transceivers, for example.
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Maybe the good people of Giro sent them a nice crate of Bombay Sapphire?
Wait until they get a hamper of goodies from Dainesse, and the advocation of body armour hits the streets
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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more useful info - including the study mentioned in the OP and other studies here
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stoatsbrother, thanks for that reminder. I've been on that site in the past - it's very good indeed. It's interesting that the conclusions of the longest-established ski injury research in the States (and the world) - Shealy, Johnson, Ettlinger - were (albeit ten years ago):
| Quote: |
| "...the findings are not particularly supportive of the notion that wearing helmets will significantly reduce the number of fatalities in winter snow sports". This was supported by a presentation at the last ISSS meeting by the Chief Medical Examiner for the state of Vermont, USA - Dr Paul L. Morrow. Dr Morrow was of the opinion that of 54 deaths at commercial ski areas in Vermont from 1979/80 to 1997/98, helmets would not have been of any particular value in saving any of the lives lost - as the degree of trauma simply overwhelmed any benefits that the helmet might convey in an impact. To quote Shealy et al again - a team of highly respected ski injury researchers - "On the basis of results to date, there is no clear evidence that helmets have been shown to be an effective means of reducing fatalities in alpine sports". |
Overall, as ski-injury.com stress, it's worth noting that the risk of death in skiing is very low:
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| With 57.6 million [US skier] visits in 2002/2003, the death rate translates to 0.64 deaths per million visits (or one death every 1.6 million skier visits - really exceptionally low). |
And, from the data presented on that site, the risk of death from impact (unspecified) is approximately half that proportion - about one death per 3 million skier visits.
I'm personally quite happy to continue skiing without a helmet. It's hard to see that children's heads are at significant risk when skiing, but people tend to go with the flow. Heads must be at far higher risk in play areas in cities etc.
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The original study referred to in the OP is, I think, from the Journal of the American Medical Association: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/295/8/919.
We should, however, avoid confusing two aspects of helmet use. Helmets will not reduce significantly the number of skiing deaths, for there aren't that many anyhow and in many fatal accidents other injuries would lead to death despite the helmet. It has been reported, however, that the doctors treating Dieter Althaus have said that his helmet may have saved his life (and in the other recent accident near Mittersill the skier wearing a helmet survived whereas the other died). So maybe helmets do help sometimes. If you crash straight into a tree at high speed, a helmet might not help much. But in collisions with other skiers, where the object collided with is not solid, I think helmets will sometimes help.
The other point is that, although helmets may not reduce fatalities notably, they do help reduce the effects of less serious accidents to the head. I can quote a personal experience. Skiing on Nevis Range, a friend fell and cut her head, requiring stitches. I'm pretty sure that would have been avoided if she had been wearing a helmet. So, to me, it seems worth wearing a helmet to reduce the number of such avoidable injuries.
Mind you, my helmet didn't help when I hurt my knee last week, so maybe I should give it up after all 
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You know it makes sense.
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David Goldsmith, I think espri makes the real point here - that helmets are not just for preventing death. They are also pretty comfortable and prevent goggle fogging etc etc.
My kids are each on their third helmets. But I think this should remain a matter of choice outside ski school.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It is true iirc that the skull does not grow so rapidly after the age of 13 and that the majority of bones have fused such that growth is limited to the major sutures, so there is a rationale there.
It remains the age at which children can be assumed in law to cross the road safely. Also, 13 used to be the age of criminal responsibiity (until about five years ago when the government decided it should be 10). So, after that age we have to accept that they are competent to make some decisions themselves - with a little guidance perhaps  .
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Poster: A snowHead
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David Goldsmith,
Your club simply appears to be following the law in Italy, as normal for clubs the law has been in place for 3 years.....
| Quote: |
Italy is the first European country to insist that children wear helmets on the ski slopes. They will be compulsory for all under-14s from 1 January 2005.
The new law comes as a result of a series of accidents on Italian slopes during last season. Discussions to segregate snowboarders and skiers have been put on hold.
Those caught without helmets will face a fine of £100. The new rules also mean off-piste skiers must carry an electronic pager and ski police will be able to fine skiers for excessive speeding.
All resorts in Italy will be expected to adhere to the new rules and many ski schools are offering to provide free helmets to children taking lessons |
http://www.travelmail.co.uk/travel/Italy-makes-ski-helmets-law-for-children.html?article_id=22958
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I wonder if helmets take more knocks than unprotected skulls. They make the head a bigger target, a person probably doesn't make an allowance for the size of the helmet in taking avoiding action and the head will be slower to move due to the additional weight. I - unhelmeted - took an off-piste tumble last week which involved a complete somersault. Instinctively, I tucked my head in when it was nearest the ground. I wonder if I'd have avoided contact with a helmet on.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
I'm personally quite happy to continue skiing without a helmet. |
Does that mean that you are actually going skiing this season?
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I did some ski teaching at the end of December. Is this relevant?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Re the tree point any skiing accident is easily avoidable by learning to ski such that one never has accidents or avoiding skiing altogether. I think you've cracked the reasoning why no-one needs a helmet 
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| I did some ski teaching at the end of December. Is this relevant? |
That sounds deliberately vague.
Where was it and did you actually ski yourself?
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Do parents whose chidren wear helmets encourage them to ski into trees
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Ahhh yes, trees. That'll be those big immoveable tall objects made of solid wood. I think the general idea is that they are less fragile than your skull so best avoided with or without a helmet. Extensive research has revealed that even skiers under 13 and their parents understand this.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| richjp wrote: |
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| I did some ski teaching at the end of December. Is this relevant? |
That sounds deliberately vague.
Where was it and did you actually ski yourself? |
Firstly, I think it's reasonable to pose my question again: "Is this relevant?" [to a discussion about ski helmets, risk of head injuries, and children]
Once you've given a credible answer to that question, I'll be pleased to answer yours.
Incidentally, my reply was accurate and honest rather than vague.
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Dunno about SCGB, but in my experience North American ski schools usually make it mandatory (or, if you're allowed to opt out, make it reeeaaaalllly difficult for you to do so) for kids to wear helmets during lessons. I've never seen a kid without one over there.
I started wearing helmets a season or two ago when a couple of people I know were greatly helped by their helmets. One suffered concussion despite wearing a helmet, and it's hard to believe the injury would have been less severe if no helmet were being worn. The other actually cracked a helmet in a bad fall but escaped completely unscathed.
Having started, I can't imagine that I'll ever stop. A decent helmet is so comfortable that a hat feels primitive and outdated. The relative freedom from misting on warm damp days is a big benefit, too.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
| The new rules also mean off-piste skiers must carry an electronic pager and ski police will be able to fine skiers for excessive speeding. |
Is that true?
Do they police that heavily? Does it include between pistes and stuff?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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What's the issue here? Is it that the SCGB advocates something or is it that they advocate something with which the initiator of the thread disagrees?
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rich.ll, The OP sums up his issue as "helmet creep" but I understand that there is now a cream you can get for it.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rich.ll wrote: |
| What's the issue here? Is it that the SCGB advocates something or is it that they advocate something with which the initiator of the thread disagrees? |
That would be it. The OP dislikes commercially available safety equipment. He has openly stated that he does not carry any safety equipment except for a length of string which he trails behind him when he enters avalanche terrain.
He is as mad as a hatter, in my opinion, and you would be best advised to ignore him on matters regarding safety.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
What's the issue here? Is it that the SCGB advocates something or is it that they advocate something with which the initiator of the thread disagrees?
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Having re-read the OP I can't see any definitive statement that he is for or against the wearing of helmets nor that he disagrees with the club stance but he is questioning the rationale behind it. It is clear that David doesn't wear a helmet but I don't think he is against helmets per se since he does wear one when cycling.
I don't wear a helmet whilst skiing but have been toying with the idea for a year or two. One of my ski buddies started wearing a helmet a couple of years ago when his kids started to ski and he wears his whenever he skis now.
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Poster: A snowHead
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This topic was first raised on a new ski website named PlanetSKI. You can read the article here.
PlanetSKI is managed by James Cove, who is the BBC's Skiing Correspondent and comes live, direct from the mountains. James has based himself in Verbier for the season but has been all over the mountains already this season writing for the website. The website also had an exclusive video of Leona Lewis snowboarding in Ishgul at the beginning of the season.
Best wishes,
Ben
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ben.clatworthy wrote: |
| This topic was first raised on a new ski website named PlanetSKI. You can read the article here. |
Really? I couldn't see any mention of the SCGB.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ben.clatworthy, "First raised" you must be joking! Wearing of helmets has been discussed ad infinitum on Snowheads for many years.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ben.clatworthy, badly-written recycled copy. Surely 'the BBC's skiing correspondent' can do better than that?
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 14-01-09 21:02; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well yes the helmets thing is not new - but the one on PlanetSKI was there long before the one on SCGB.
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ben.clatworthy, By the way welcome to Snowheads
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ben.clatworthy, we've been debating helmets here for ages. It's become boringly repetitive. The new angle DG introduced in this thread was SCGB "official" guidance. The example accident involving the German politician was also raised here very shortly after it happened.
Welcome to snowHeads, BTW. 
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| badly-written recycled copy. |
Recycled certainly but you can hardly avoid that on this subject (we do it here continually ). But I didn't find it that badly written, rather reasonably balanced, I felt.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I am a ski racer so of course I always use a helmet and much vouch for the number of times I have been saved by it. And it is a FIS rule that you have to race with a helmet!
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espri, I didn't say it was biased, I said it was badly written.
I've just read it again, and I revise my opinion - it's abysmal.
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FAQ
