 Poster: A snowHead
|
How does BASI define them?
As an example, PSIA, from my understanding, has it broken down as follows;
1st third - Initiation
2nd third - Shaping
3rd third - Completion
I do it a little differently from that. Just wondering about BASI's perspective.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
FastMan, The last time I read the basi manual I don't recall a mention of breaking down the turn in specific 'phases' in the way you mention. I don't know if the 'race' modules are different.
To be honest I almost posted this a couple of days ago but didn't in the expectation of a more positive reply from someone who's read the current manual, in case things have changed.
It's an interesting subject. What's your take ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
FastMan, they go with the canadians cscf terminology on the coaching modules
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I don't know about the BASI manual, but my phases of a turn can be (depending on the slope angle)
Oh s..t I've got to turn
Here we go
OMG the fall-line!!!
Phew!!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Megamum, 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Megamum, that's priceless! And so common to the feelings of so many. It's the origin of the pivoted turn initiation for so many skiers; discomfort with the acceleration that happens through the top of the turn when it's done with patience. A pivot avoids the sensation. Once people discover how turn shape and skid angle can be used as alternative speed management tools, they come to be able to enjoy and embrace the top of the turn acceleration. I'm going to share your turn phases in future discussions, if you don't mind, they so well describe the mindset of so many skiers.
skimottaret, do you know what that terminology is, and if it's currently much of a focus for you guys?
david@mediacopy, thanks for kicking off the conversation. By the lack of response, I was assuming what you suggested was correct; that BASI doesn't focus too much on specific turn phases.
As far as my take on it, I don't compartmentalize a turn in the same manner PSIA does. I don't see initiation as something that happens over a third of the turn, I see it as the act of engaging the edges and beginning to change direction. As soon as that happens, initiation is complete. Initiation can be done cleanly, IE arc to arc carving, or it can be done with a preliminary pivot. That's the most important thing to take note of in the initiation.
Shaping is not a middle 1/3 of the turn thing, it happens through the entire turn, from the time you initiate, until the moment you roll off edge at the end of the turn. And turn completion is just part of the transition from one turn to the next. While you're completing your turn you're in the midst of your transition, and you're still shaping it. As such, how you complete and transition is very much dependent on how you desire to shape the current and next turn.
I do talk about the TOP of the turn quite a bit (the portion from initiation to falline), because it's there where people struggle most in learning to execute a consistent and pivot free turn shapes. It's the section Megamum referred to as "here we go" and "OMG the falline". Much of my teaching time is spent helping people overcome their fear of that part of the turn, and coming to see it as fun.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FastMan, I'm glad it resonated - as for using it, please 'fill your boots'. I am now at the stage of being able to play around with the turn more and can now start to feel differences between them, but the steeper the slope the closer that analogy gets, esp. for that essential 'first turn' (you know the one, once you've done it the rest are easier regardless of steepness) .
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FastMan, to be honest not really used to much in BASI instructor courses from what i remember until level 3 and not too much then. i tend to only use it as shorthand when talking to other coaches and like you with rec skiers use top and bottom half of turn plus falline occasionally. indoors it is difficult for us to really explore turn shape and phase so i tend to only do that on the mountain and then focus on transitions and a clean top third
But BASI coaching course content was developed from the CSCF and the head guy at basi was the ex canadian mens WC coach... when training racers and doing more performance based courses i have more emphasis on the 3 phases of the turn...
when i learned it i was told
Phase 1 - Release
Phase 2 - Edging
Phase 3 - Loading
but this doesnt really work for me.... and was at odds with some other stuff i have heard about impulse and active pressure at the top half of the turn to develop speed... lots of nomenclature to me, i kinda like what gurshman talks about...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I don't think I've really been taught anything formally, but what I use I've picked up largely from here. This is to split the turn into basically three thirds from one transition to the next, so largely:
1) approaching the fall-line
2) in the fallline and
3) coming out of fall-line to the next transition.
When I used that as a shorthand in a group discussion with a senior England (SSE) coach, the response was that my 3 and 1 blended very much into each other so there wasn't much distinction between the two. I held my peace at that point but completely disagree with it; you're on opposite edges, the relationship between gravity and turn forces are completely different and so the feeling of those phases is very distinct. Maybe I just misunderstood him, but didn't persue it any further as we'd worked out what we were talking about by then, and semantic arguments weren't really the point (we had snow to ski - not a keyboard to type at  ). I think there's a fair argument that my No 2 could get vanishingly small and the objective could eventually be to eliminate it as something distinct, so that then pretty much matches FastMan's split.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
just to add, basi talks about start of turn or initiation of turn but important emphasis is on fundamental elements ie steering element , pressure,edge and rotation,. applying these in variations as to what outcome you want eg what turn shape you want , snow quality, steepness etc , speed, and or radius of turnshape etc. but it still can be dissected using the clock face 12 to 2 as initiation or start 2 to 4 as middle or falline 4 to 6ish at end , is this any help.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Megamum wrote: |
I don't know about the BASI manual, but my phases of a turn can be (depending on the slope angle)
Oh s..t I've got to turn
Here we go
OMG the fall-line!!!
Phew!!!!! |
Funny, a coach friend of mine named the turn you describe as an 'oh s**t' turn, usally instigated after a long traverse to the edge of the piste  You are\were not alone !
powder.jan I'd agree with that. There is also a focus on finding 'grip' earlier and earlier in the turn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
FastMan, BASI manual does not appear to break the phases of the turn down in the way say the swiss system does. (version 2.0)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I find with my turns that I am much happier, solid, balanced and faster turning right than left. Also when I put in a hockey stop I more often than not stop in a right turn than left. I am plenty able to do either left or right but somehow happier on the right. Any ideas why my snowhead experts?? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
david@mediacopy,
| Quote: |
usally instigated after a long traverse to the edge of the piste
|
That resonates - the 'turn where you've run out of space and options turn'
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
I really like the CSIA way of breaking it down, off the top of my head it's 1. completion to release (so end of last turn to a flat ski), 2. release to fall line 3. fall line to completion - I think they phrase it better but couldn't find an image online. It's never something I want to explain to a client beyond drawing an arc in the snow and pointing at bits, but the model seems effective for training other instructors. Took me a while to get my head around phase 1 being the end of a turn rather than the start of a new one though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| jirac18 wrote: |
| I find with my turns that I am much happier, solid, balanced and faster turning right than left. Also when I put in a hockey stop I more often than not stop in a right turn than left. I am plenty able to do either left or right but somehow happier on the right. Any ideas why my snowhead experts?? |
Could be a variety of reasons. The most remote would be a ski tuning issue. By that I mean one ski is tuned differently than the other, such as it has become concave/convex, or has a bevel out of whack, or has a rogue burr. I say this is the more remote possibility, because chances are you're not always on the same skis, or always put the same ski on the same foot. If the problem exists regardless of the skis you're on, then that's not the issue. If you always are on the same skis, and make a point to always put the same ski on the same foot, switch them to the opposite feet and see how it feels. If it feels better you're overdue for a good tune.
The more likely culprits are either an alignment or other body structure discrepancy between your right and left legs/feet, or a a motor development discrepancy between your left and right side. My experience suggests either has similar likelihood of being the problem. Start by seeing the best boot fitter you can find, so the body structure imbalance can be either ruled out or dealt with. From there it's just a matter of getting on a good skiing skill building training program that will iron out the motor skill imbalances, and elevate your entire skiing skill package.
Training can overcome the structural issues, so you could save your money, skip the boot fitter, and head right to the slopes, but it an structural issue does exist doing that will make overcoming the challenges you're experiencing much tougher. You'll have to learn to ski differently, use different body positions, when turning left and right.
Let a quality instructor have a look at you skiing, or put a video up here if you have it. They may be able to see if something looks wrong in your alignment, or if a glaring technical (skiing skill) issue is at the root of your woes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
FastMan, jirac18, I am happier to hockey stop on a left turn, though again able to do both. If given an open piste and needing to stop I just seem to turn left. I also turn better to the left than to the right. I just assumed it was because I naturally had one leg stronger than the other and therefore had a natural tendency to go one way. A bit like a footballer favours kicking the ball with one leg.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 15-05-11 17:59; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| DaveC wrote: |
| I really like the CSIA way of breaking it down, off the top of my head it's 1. completion to release (so end of last turn to a flat ski), 2. release to fall line 3. fall line to completion - I think they phrase it better but couldn't find an image online. It's never something I want to explain to a client beyond drawing an arc in the snow and pointing at bits, but the model seems effective for training other instructors. Took me a while to get my head around phase 1 being the end of a turn rather than the start of a new one though. |
Thanks for sharing that, DaveC. Interesting, that it appears in that breakdown that completion is not considered to represent the actual end of the turn, but rather simply the beginning of the transition? Completion is considered the process of releasing, and release is looked at as the moment at which it actually happens, the skis are flat on the snow, and the skier stops turning? So depending on the nature of the transition, completion can exist well back into the actual turn/arc? Am I reading what you wrote correctly?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Megamum wrote: |
| FastMan, jirac18, I am happier to hockey stop on a left turn, though again able to do both. If given an open piste and needing to stop I just seem to turn left. I also turn better to the left than to the right. I just assumed it was because I naturally had one leg stronger than the other and therefore had a natural tendency to go one way. A bit like a footballer favours kicking the ball with one leg. |
It's rather common for people to have a strong side, which speaks to the motor development side of the equation. It's also common for people to not be perfectly the same in structural alignment and build on the left and right sides. I'm sure the boot fitters here will confirm that. For the best chance at expediting the learning process, both should be explored and addressed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I struggle with turning right. Or at least I did (I think). Put me anywhere on the piste I will always, always, head off in a direction that allows me to do a left turn first. After that initial turn the right turns are OK - some go as far as being good I think BUT whenever I try to start a run with the first turn being a right one, it all goes horribly wrong, and basically is a way of somehow manouvering into a position to do a left turn. It might now just be a mental block.
Anyway, I enjoyed the group instruction on the EoSB and think I got a lot out of it (although I agree it might not look like that to others). I may be geting it wrong but we certainly seemed to be looking at the turns as being in two phases only.
I think.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
FastMan, I'm not sure I represented it quite right - but yeah, if you were turning right, flattened your skis at the fall line, then turned left, I guess that'd work - is that what you mean? I tend to think of it myself as phase one flat, phase two incline, phase three increase inclination by angulation. I'll dig up my manual in a couple of days when I'm back at home rather than trying to make my brain feel like winter again!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
DaveC, If you flatten your skis in the fall line how do you then turn left? What I understand you to be saying I would now be going straight down the slope on flat skis so no hope of turning until I re-engage the skis and start a new turn...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oh and it sounds as though you are describing garlands... because you don't complete that turn to the right, but pull out at the fall line and turn back to the left...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
little tiger, I was talking about starting a new turn from the fall line - I was trying to follow what Fastman was getting at.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
DaveC, I know some folks call turns from fall line to fall line is that what you mean by starting from the fall line? (like a lying down flattened S rather than a C shape)
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
DaveC, In lessons this year the instructor said 'chase me' and went down the piste doing like half a turn, straighted it and then did another one in the same direction, gradually working across the piste width and then when he got to the piste edge obviously had to follow it with an opposite one - so it was like a giant capital C. Could that be what you were getting at?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
No, not at all, sorry - I was trying to re-word what FastMan asked me above and then little tiger took it totally out of context so now it's more than confusing. I might of misunderstood the above, didn't really have much time to write the above posts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| FastMan wrote: |
| DaveC wrote: |
| I really like the CSIA way of breaking it down, off the top of my head it's 1. completion to release (so end of last turn to a flat ski), 2. release to fall line 3. fall line to completion - I think they phrase it better but couldn't find an image online. It's never something I want to explain to a client beyond drawing an arc in the snow and pointing at bits, but the model seems effective for training other instructors. Took me a while to get my head around phase 1 being the end of a turn rather than the start of a new one though. |
Thanks for sharing that, DaveC. Interesting, that it appears in that breakdown that completion is not considered to represent the actual end of the turn, but rather simply the beginning of the transition? Completion is considered the process of releasing, and release is looked at as the moment at which it actually happens, the skis are flat on the snow, and the skier stops turning? So depending on the nature of the transition, completion can exist well back into the actual turn/arc? Am I reading what you wrote correctly? |
I was trying to understand the quoted reply to my post to make sure I knew what was being said, when I went into the idea of flattening the skis at the fall line. I didn't ever say it's a good idea or what I think the CSIA describes a turn as, literally brought it up to clarify if that's what FastMan meant in the section I've bolded.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Interesting thread. The turn is where we numpties all fall down. My memorable experience as said to myself ..."turn before the rock, turn before the rock, turn before the rock, turn before the rock, ok, turn after the rock, turn after the rock..
Keep it up, don't let us quiet observers put you off.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
little tiger, Nothing wrong with STARTING flattening a ski at the fall line. Apex of the turn should be your max angulation so therefore you have to decrease angulation straight after the fall line, which results in flattening of the ski from the fall line to be flat before rolling the other way for the next turn.
Think that is what is meant rather than actually being flat on your base in the fall line.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
jjc james, agree with starting flattening... in fact for me thinking about turn initiation from apex(or before) is what helps me do a better job (if that makes sense)... if I aim outside the next gate I can start to finish my turn early enough (kind of) to start the following turn early enough (except I then took that to extreme and got too early)...
I just read DaveC's flat in fall line and turn other way as getting to flat in the fall line... and turn other way as like a garland - where no turn is completed... and it did not match with what I thought CSIA used to describe turn phases... maybe wrong as it is a while since I skied with a CSIA guy and they had learnt APSI(and other) terminology as well... so only used CSIA as a sideline if needed... (eg if other systems not suitable/working for me)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Well, I've learned an important lesson about never posting anything that isn't mean to be taken literally. Carry on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
DaveC, I was just pointing out that bringing a turn to a conclusion is a process, not a sudden happening, which involves rolling our skis from max edge angle, back to flat on the snow, at which point we finally stop turning. All through the process of rolling off edge and back to flat we continue to turn. That process of rolling off edge and bringing a turn to a completion is commonly thought of as the first part of the "transition".
We have to take into account the fact that bringing a turn to an end takes time, and that throughout that process we will continue turning, so we know to begin the process before we've turned as far as we ultimately want to.
We have to also know how quickly we plan on transitioning, so we can anticipate how early we need to start our transition so the turn ends when we desire. With practice we learn to employ those timing calculations instinctively. In free skiing there's more fudge room, our turn shape is not so crucial. In racing, perfect turn shape is more imperative, so timing has to be spot on.
Sometimes the process can reverse. We know how long we want to turn, but if in making it happen we misjudge the speed of our transition, we can adjust our transition speed so we can still finish the turn when we desire, and get the new turn started when we need to. Sometimes too, we need to speed up our transition out of sudden need, such as when another skier or other obstacle unexpectedly appears in front of us, out of the blue. Developing transition skill versatility allows us to make those quick adaptations. Ask little tiger about the time at Breckenridge I had to make a very rapid evasionary measures to avoid slamming into a woman passing me at high speed, totally out of control, and swearing at me as she did for cutting off her line.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
Interesting thread. The turn is where we numpties all fall down. My memorable experience as said to myself ..."turn before the rock, turn before the rock, turn before the rock, turn before the rock, ok, turn after the rock, turn after the rock..
Keep it up, don't let us quiet observers put you off. |
Frosty, that's so funny, and for many, so familiar.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Isn't it hillarious that we all have our own ways of viewing particular turns and they are all so descriptive we can all relate to them
From this year is also the 'Oh hell, I was going to turn there, but now I'm there its all blue and shiney, oh, s**t what now'
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 17-05-11 22:49; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Megamum wrote: |
| From this year is also the 'Oh hell, I was going to turn there, but now I'm there its all blue and shiney, oh, s**t what now' |
On a well-scraped piste with a very hard surface I turn on the hard packed bits and slow down on the patches of loose snow. So the turn goes a bit like this:
traversing across hard and soft snow;
look for a nice patch of loose snow below;
do a turn on the hard packed snow;
soon after leaving the fall line keep turning the skis and enter the loose snow;
keep turning the skis but keep them fairly flat (not much edge) and side slip in the loose snow to control speed;
while in the loose snow look for the next patch of loose snow;
do a turn on the hard packed snow planning to enter that next patch of loose snow;
and so on.
I know I will increase speed as my skis are in or near the fall line, so there is no point in wasting precious lose snow on that part of the turn. So I just do a turn on the hard packed snow while planning to control speed a little later on. This speed control also means I enter the next turn slow enough that I will not be going too fast through the fall line on the next turn.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
@Fastman
| Quote: |
I do it a little differently from that. Just wondering about BASI's perspective.
|
BASI's Perspective?:
"Plain language and plain skiing that any decent skier can pick up and begin to use in a teaching lesson straight away." (That's my unofficial conclusion anyway.)
I have just parsed the new BASI Alpine Manual (May 2011) and there is no concept of turn phasing included.
The manual is written very skilfully, very non-technically - but still manages to get the basics communicated to beginning Ski Teachers.
Every single turn diagram illustrated is on a semicircular template.
However, if you want to get the most out of the book, you have to switch on your "Zen Detector" and look for what the authors are really trying to say between the lines.
e.g. beside a big diagram drawn as a perfect circle they tell you to ski round, you'll read "Although we talk about the radius of an arc, the line we ski does not have to be part of a circle. The Radius can tighten through the turn, or start tight and end up open".
(You have to make an effort to find this, and it isn't diagrammed).
There's definitely a BASI-Pro vocabulary.
If you are speaking to a BASI instructor, all you need do is throw in these keywords and phrases every minute: "Blend", "Appropriate", "Grip", "Outcome", "Effective", "Actively", "Working the skis", "ability to influence the arc of the turn", "Input", "Upper/Lower body separation", "Steering Elements".
At the other end of the food-chain: A BASI Trainer will almost never talk "Inputs" (do this angle, press that ski, so much pressure, phase thisorthat) - They talk about "achieving the task" based on "Output requirements", "Management goals and Process goals". You will almost never see them skiing at full speed, and they will almost never commit to a technical answer. The one or two who do are usually very good indeed.
Ask "How do you control speed in the bumps?" the Trainer will typically reply (making turn-gestures with both hands palms down and thumbs together) "A bit of oomph (Right), a bit of doomph (left) and after that, it's an appropriate blend of the steering elements, combined with active extension and compression to give you effective grip - and speed control".
They'll never say "Sorry, you've failed again" Instead it's "On this occasion you have not achieved the level, ...".
For me, I'm a Greg Gurshman follower. He has the turn-phases like this for GS:
Phase-1: Up to the flowline.
Phase-2: At the flowline.
Phase-3: After the flowline.
The absolutely vital extra phase, though is Phase-0 which is the "Short-Leg-Short-Leg" flatski transition between arcs where you speed up linearly on a path that is no more than 45 Degrees from the flowline.
SkiPresto!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| SkiPresto wrote: |
There's definitely a BASI-Pro vocabulary.
...
At the other end of the food-chain: A BASI Trainer will almost never talk "Inputs"
|
Maybe this is because of the differing nature of clients? A recreational skier might prefer to talk about inputs ("what should I do...?") rather than outcomes ("how/what do you want me to ski...?"), whereas an instructor working their way through the qualification system should be much more aware of the range of inputs they have available and should be able to vary these to achieve particular outcomes. In my teaching I try to focus attention on inputs and outcomes with every level client I teach.
| SkiPresto wrote: |
| [Trainers] will almost never commit to a technical answer. |
I think this varies a lot from Trainer to Trainer, and maybe depends on the level course they are running? I've had some Trainers who talk a lot about technical inputs, others who are much more output focused. IME there is also a difference between the Alpine Trainers and the Coach Trainers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
