 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello peeps,
I've bought myself a cheap pair of skis in order to save me a couple of quid hiring rubbish from various hire shops. The skis i have are brand new and unwaxed.
I am planning to wax them myself, i've had a look on the net for hints/tips/advice and i reckon it looks pretty simple. Here's what i'm planning to do:
Right, i'll start by nipping over to S&R and get a pack of universal wax and a pack of mixed (red + yellow) toko wax, a plexi blade and a copper brush. I'll take the skis outside (guess it's a messy job), bung them on my saw horses and melt the soft (red, i think) wax on to the ski's evenly and smooth/iron it on to the ski bases (with a warm iron) as a base layer that can be absorbed into the ski for protection. Leave it to dry for about an hour, remove the excess wax with the plexy blade then use the brush to smooth off. Then repeat the process with the harder wax (yellow one) and finally do it again with the universal. Now i'm ready for skiing 
can anyone please correct me if i'm about to make a huge balls up or provide any useful advice which may help me.
Cheers
AL
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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good plan.
Personally, I only use a single type of wax at once but your plan is better really. My personal weakness when waxing is over application, so start light and go back and do it again if it's not enough, wax isn't too cheap nowadays.
But (there had to be one  ), factory skis can have the "wrong" edge angle on them, typically a plain 90' edge, personally (like most people) I ski 0.5' on the base and 88' on the side. So, you're going to want to edge them as well.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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which reminds me......
I'll be happy to lay a demo on when we're on the PG meet for ski servicing, providing PG will assist and provide the facilities. In fact, we can do a double act.
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Excuse my ignorance but, what difference does 2 degrees make? Please bear in mind i am not a particularly good skiier (lower intermediate) so will i really notice any difference? And why does the factory do this if everyone has an 88 deg edge? Sorry for the silly questions
AL
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The_Mac_Daddy, Remember that for every question you post there are probably at least 10 people interested in the answer or there are those that are too shy to ask. Keep asking those questions if you don't know the answer its not a dumb question 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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no problem, good question, OK, for a start, not all factories do it, it's just easier production I guess, it also leaves you able to decide yourself.
So, why 88? It increases "grip" as you turn the ski, 88 is probably as high as you want to go, 89 would be fine. 88' is where most people who edge their skis go, clearly there's a lot of people still on the factory edge. But, why make it hard for yourself? More grip is good. At the extreme end racers might go as far as 86` but you'll need to laying sideways on the piste at speed to get grip there
As a side note, 90 or 89 would be fine for an pure off-piste ski.
and shame on me for typing it the wrong way round above, I meant, 88 side angle and 0.5 base angle 
This is a reasonable guide.
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this is a good site for anything to do with servicing skis...
http://www.tognar.com/
be careful not to overcook your skis with the iron. if the wax smokes the iron is too hot. the topsheet of the ski should feel warm to the touch. Rubble&Slush do free tune workshops.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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cheers peeps, i've had a look at those guides and i'm thinking about letting S&R do the initial set up as i don't wanna cock up my edges. I checked my skis and they do seem to have a slight angle to them, but it's very hard to tell by eye, difficult to see these very slight angles of such small piece of material. However i do know the edges are very sharp, almost sliced my hand on them when picking them up 
The skis are cheapo blizzards from skiwarehouse, dunno if anyone here has a pair and if they could tell me if they come pre edged?
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The_Mac_Daddy, Don't worry too much about 88 or 90. The most important thing is to ensure the tips and tails of the edges are 'detuned' - blunted 4 or so inches from the tip and 2-3 from the tail. Are you skis new ? If so, that's all you need to do.
Don't worry about waxes either - for us UK residents who can't measure snow temperature Universal is fine !
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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mmm... I know of no one that detunes the tips and tails other than racers, it's far more trouble than it's worth.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ski, so you don't reckon i need to use a soft wax to start with? i thought the first wax should be a nice soft one so it penetrates deep in to the ski to give it some protection. Then the following coats of wax could be regular (harder) general purpose stuff? I'm pretty sure the edges have been done by the shop so it's just the wax that i need to do before skiing on them. I looked at the tuning guide that ise kindly posted and it mentioned about detuning the tips and tails if your racing but for carving it's better to leave them as they are.
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I also de-tune the first and last 3 inches or so of a ski, irrespective of type. It could be that it's just habitual now and there is no need. I've always understood that the main reason was to prevent the ski 'hooking' when commencing a turn. Never seen any reason not to, Comprex any comments?
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You know it makes sense.
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The_Mac_Daddy, The waxes all penetrate to the same extent so universal is indeed fine unless you propose to start racing
De tuning doesn't seem to make much difference unless skiing on hardpack then it will make a difference, on soft snow the edges are unlikely to catch and hold long enough to cause problems
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ise, a ski service seminar at PG's end of term bash would be a useful & fun thing to do. It would help if it could be early in the week as I'm only out for a long weekend.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar.org.uk, we should definitely do it then. It's interesting to compare notes even for those of us that do tune.
The subject of detuning came up at a tuning session Mark Jones did in Tignes the other week, in addition to his other achievements he worked as a ski tech at one time. He also thought detuning was more trouble than it was worth. I may play around with detuning and see how it feels to me, I'm quite prepared to be convinced otherwise, in fact, I might try it for the weekend, I'll detune on Saturday night and see if I can feel a difference.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sounds good - Sunday night or Monday night would suit me if that's possible. I do tune my skis, but don't really have much expertise to offer so it would be a good opportunity to learn some more.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hmmm I don't detune for plastic racing, always do for snow tho, and take Mrs Ski's edges a bit further back than mine.
In the spirit of pure reasearch, for the next snow trip (Dec 3,4,5 - Zermatt), I won't detune my skis (Salomon sometingaxe GS skis from about 3 years ago) at all. I'll let you know how I get on.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think this might be where you'd like the link to
Toko website
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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By the way Toko has changed their website setup so use the link above 
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David@traxvax, I detune a highly shaped ski to be used in soft snow using a hard stone. Just because sometimes I get obsessive waiting for snow, I polish all edges with gummi stone.
I reckon that polish takes the burr off so the differences I notice from the hard stone is very likely just edge hooking as you say.
I like TMD's idea of saturating the base with soft wax first as it will probably lessen the chances of burning a new ski base with the iron. I don't think he needs to wait a full hour before the second coat though unless the brush in between is a polishing brush (probably nylon). But this is all too much to fret over, I think.
I would do the first scrape warm just to get rid of surface grit that might have settled on the bases (and floated up into the wax) and the second scrape just as he says and leave it alone after that.
Two thumbs up on the toko website!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ski, I did the very same experiment with Volkl p40 GS boards some years ago- they were prepared for eastern Canada and I took them to Snowbird.  They did really well (mostly because I was so familiar with them) until the fresh snow depth exceeded 20cm. Beyond that, I blame myself mostly as the front/back balance errors were far greater than any ski fault.
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comprex, yep I'd say the same. We didn't have much snow in Zermatt - soft(ish) on the glacier and hard (formica like) artificial lower down. Yes they did catch in the 'on the side of the piste' powder, but the grip of the piste was very strong and very predicatable. So that's one job I won't be doing again.
It would be interesting to try this out with new skis.........
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Here's how to maintain your skis.
Warning! 6Mb windows media file (sound and white powder required )
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 24-02-05 23:38; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Alan Craggs, metal scrapers, screwdrivers, the iron actually touching the ski before the wax is applied - and so hot it sounded as if the wax was frying! What's that guy on !
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 6-12-04 20:40; edited 1 time in total
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PG, err, white powder 
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You know it makes sense.
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If you put on more than one layer of wax you'll need to scrape off everything that stays on the surface before adding more. Otherwise anything you add will just be scraped off when you scrape it down (you only need a very thin layer).
I had thought that good racers wouldn't detune their skis because they would get more grip from the ends of their skis that way and their technique would be good enough that it wouldn't trip them. It's surely us approximate skiers who need the detune.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've never seen any need to "detune" (ie blunt?) the shovel - as I see it that's the part of the ski that's leading you into the turn so that's where you need/want to have good grip (particularly in the old days when pressuring the forepart of the ski tended to be emphasised). Similarly I've never understood/had a problem with this "hooking" concept, and I've always sharpened the edges along the full length.
Should I make sure my front tyres are bald in case I suffer from oversteer?
However, I'm fully prepared to accept that my technique is carp so what do I know? 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Alan Craggs, more like scraping some tread off the ice tyres to make them manageable on dry roads. Doesn't sound reasonable at all unless it's the only thing you have.
The specific case of 'detuning super-shaped skis' I refer to above was Elan SCX, the original parabolic with 1 turn radius and no other. I gave a few pairs to friends and they expected to use them as an all mountain ski, fresh snow to slush, so I had to make a really good one-trick pony multifaceted even if that made it mediocre.
ski's observation of 'It would be interesting' means he expects the one advantage of modern skis (over 1999 gear) to be their increased versatility. So, no need for any modification drama.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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comprex, Sorry - I meant it would just be interested in new skis! (please Mrs Ski, please)......
If any Snowheads are near Tunbridge Wells, and pm me, I'd be happy to arrange a servicing seminar. Using my skis, I'm not doing anyone else's for free !
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As an ex-Nordic ski racer turned alpine ski racer turned ski mountaineer; I have gone from waxing nazi to pretty devil-may-care! The main things to note are probably:
1. Edges at 89 deg or less will become a handful if you are not used to them or try them on ice/corduroy/artificial. the thing to remember is that unless you can break a ski by putting it between 2 tables and standing on it, which I don't recommend you try, it is stronger than you are. Having infallible grip and applying it with too much enthusiasm will rebound all the skis energy back to the first weak spot it encounters - your knee - and coupled with the g-force you are generating by initiating a turn with lean or angulation, plus the exponential potential energy you are generating purely by being a passenger weighing xx kgs (?) you can see the trouble. Hence the reason for a minimum radius for Slalom and GS skis and not length. Sharp edges are all you really need and accept that the factory or shop datum will suffice for the time being. As you advance, experiment with 0.5 deg of base, which you do yourself with a file and a steady hand! I always de-tune tips and tail but like the others this may be a legacy from the old days, and I still ski quite long (198cm).
2. Waxing is not a black art and it sounds like you have a good plan. Be careful with a metal brush on the base, strictly speaking you shouldn't need it, it is would ordinarily be used for rilling prior to a race. It may be worth using a light emery paper on the base first to smooth it off, then wipe with a cloth to remove loose particles. Avoid sanding the edges. Warm the base before the first application of wax to open the pores, without lingering anywhere for too long. As said before it should be warm to the touch, not hot. You can either rub the wax directlt onto the base or melt it on. Wax is expensive and I prefer to rub it on then melt it into the base. If you are multi layering then remember that the wax is used in the reverse order it is put on in. So it may be best to stick with universal throughout, in case of a seriously cold or warm spell when you are out and the inappropriate wax being to the fore!
One other tip. When clamping your skis remember that as you heat them they will distort, usually straightening. This is normal but the clamps should be loose to allow them to do this, and tightened for applying the scraper. Any camber on the ski sole should be slightly convex, however if they are too convex the ski will track and be hard to control in a straight line, this is the only time I would recommend using a metal scraper, to shape the base a little.
The alternative is, if the base is black and not looking too dry (white and flaky), then boll***ks to it and drag them out to play!! 
Happy sliding!! Next stop the powder........
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Alan Craggs wrote: |
| PG, err, white powder |
As the Doctor said, 'those edges love to be stoned'!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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On all but hard pack I run a coin over the top and bottom 3 inches or so of the ski. I have always done this to stop catching an edge. It is habit now, I suppose.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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'The alternative is, if the base is black and not looking too dry (white and flaky), then boll***ks to it and drag them out to play!!
' - good call !
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Hmm I'm still having trouble with this concept, but then my brain is only little. Let's try defining what we mean here. Does "catching an edge" mean a) a relatively flat ski is sliding sideways, and the edge digs into the snow thus exerting a sudden and dramatic braking effect; b) unanticipated by the skier, the edge of an edged ski suddenly finds that it is leading the ski into a turn; c) neither of these things.
If the answer is a), then surely this phenomenon is more likely to occur on hardpack than anywhere else? If the answer is b), why would it be more likely to happen with sharper skis in softer snow? If the answer is neither, then what is it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Alan Craggs,
I think that that a) b) and c) may apply. You are more likely to catch an edge on hard pack, the bigeest danger on shaped skis being while in the tuck in a strraight line at speed, where the ski is on the one point of skiing that it is not specifically designed for, and where a sharp shovel MAY have the opportunity to dig in. DH and Super G skis are a lot less shaped than their technical counterparts, partly for this reason.
b) is less likely to occur because some form of input is required from the skier to initiate any turn, but the reason for not having ultra-sharp skis in soft/ deep snow is because you don't need them, as the whole ski is being used to control direction and speed. Freeride carving in deep snow is a method of employing piste technique to carve fantastic turns bt using the ski as a tool in its entirety - ie the flex characteristic, the length, the amount of rebound, and the two skis being used 60/40 or so.
c) If you are skiing short and have a tight radius set of skis (I have a pair of Rossi 9S 157/8 (I think!)) it is likely that from time to time you will find the ski getting ahead of you as it reacts quicker to your inputs than you thought it would, leaving you sitting in the armchair wondering how you will recover. Generally you can't and find yourself being spat out of the back with your legs in the air. This is exacerbated by the sharpness of your edges as if it is sharp all the way to the tail there is no forgiveness of your technique and it will continue to try to turn until all the relevant force has been removed. In other words it has succeeded in bucking off the errant rider. Shame on our technique for daring to drag out these skis as mere mortals!! I often have a chuckle in Verbier seeing low end intermediates waliking off the Attelas lift in a one-piece, Salomon SX60s and a pair of demo factory prepared Atomic GS11 or SL11 in either a 191 or a 160 and suffering all day as the Arlberg technique doesn't stand the test. Correct tools for the job make life infinitely more bearable!!
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FAQ
