 Poster: A snowHead
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How much would a season somewhere improve skills by on average?
Currently I am venturing into the off piste realm so am comfortable on everything but steels and bumps and I can still get over those but not with finesse 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Will you get any instruction during the season? There is the possibility that skiing a lot would mean you simply perfect your bad habits rather than making any real progress with your ski technique.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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GordonFreeman, Subject to rob@rar, 's observation above, I would suggest 'a hell of a lot' in my experience . I howver started from a much lower base.
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It's certainly what I'm hoping - but like Agenterre, the baseline is significantly lower.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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GordonFreeman, I found that it depends upon how regular fresh snow falls for off piste improvements. 2 seasons ago there was not much fresh, so most of my off-piste was on crud/ice. I got quite good at skiing in those conditions but in powder I still had a long way to go. Last season however, tons of powder and I experienced a huge leap forward.
Your on piste will improve because of the mileage you will cover.
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Vastly. Like you wouldn't believe. But as others have posted, it'll depend on snow conditions. But I'd have said the worse the conditions are, the better your skiing will become. Nothing quite like pounding away on muddy moguls to get your technique up to scratch. I always found that the better the season is the less i've learnt by the end of it.
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I intended to have some coaching in off-piste but somehow it didn't happen. I spent the season exploring new resorts to try and pick a favourite & did a lot of skiing and skied more confidently/easier towards the end of the season. I am not sure whether this means I am coping with bad habits better, just much fitter OR improving- I need a professional opinion. I have only had group lessons when starting skiing 3 years ago which were great fun but did not get much individual attention. I was taught new school technique with legs apart & although it makes for easy balance & carving & am jealous to see the style of people skiing with their ankles locked together. I have been trying to emulate this but is not coming easy + I am now dabbling off-piste where I think the skis are supposed to be closer together but whereas I can negotiate pistes I will need tuition to cope with off-piste with any competence. I have a couple of trips to North America in main season next year & have a good chance of getting some powder but I think the cost of tuition may be more than I can justify as I am a slow learner & self conscious pupil.
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If you are a keen off-piste skier you seldom ski soft, fluffy powder. I think it is a mistake to equate the two. You need to learn to ski stiffer, compacted powder, heavy wet snow, crud, breakable crust etc. A good guide will always be able to find you somewhere you can make fresh tracks long after the amateur thinks there is only hard snow and ice left - but you will need to learn to ski all conditions. Ski technique is generally the same as good carved turns on piste - it is just much less forgiving. Ankles locked together is (in most situations) not considered good style now (people doing it are usually older skiers set in their ways). You should aim for shoulder width apart.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Tue 30-09-08 10:23; edited 3 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Lechbob wrote: |
| I have only had group lessons when starting skiing 3 years ago which were great fun but did not get much individual attention. I was taught new school technique with legs apart & although it makes for easy balance & carving & am jealous to see the style of people skiing with their ankles locked together. . |
Why? Do you ski on straight, skinny 2m skis in stretch pants? The modern stance is there for a reason.
To the OP the answer is probably a lot but be wary I've seen some Brit seasonnaires in Europe who after multiple seasons have the classic very fast but no form style as all they've ever done is skied with equally clueless mates.
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What fatbob says. Their style works on piste, but get them in difficult snow conditions off-piste, or steep slopes, and they often go to pieces and are suddenly very slow. Someone with good technique will ski much the same everywhere (though there are some specific techniques to deal with very steep slopes - jump turns off the top foot etc).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob
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Why? Do you ski on straight, skinny 2m skis in stretch pants?
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I just follow fashion - my skis get fatter and longer, don't think I could carry off stretch pants with my skinny legs 
Would prefer to wear a fart bag but would be ridiculed - so I have to tolerate a draughty midriff and snow everywhere when I take a dive.
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The modern stance is there for a reason.
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So why does everyone seem to keep there ankles together ?
Funnily enough one of the group lessons I had was in Austria led by an old guy who HAD to teach new school but his heart wasn't in it he told us how to plant our feet appart & then sailed off with ankes locked together & with great style.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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snowball,
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If you are a keen off-piste skier you seldom ski soft, fluffy powder. I think it is a mistake to equate the two. You need to learn to ski stiffer, compacted powder, heavy wet snow, crud, breakable crust etc.
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You sound like the SCGB people we bumped into who were offended that we were enjoying ourselves rather than seriously skiing. 
Do you enjoy broken crust or is it the satifaction of summounting the difficulty ?
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I think for most people a season is necessary to reach a certain level unless they have skied lots as a child. I had a only done a handful of weeks before doing a 3 month season in NZ. I did do a one day a week instructor course which helped immensely with technique. A season certainly made an immense difference to my skiing and would like to think i could now ski most things with some finesse. I'm sure off or on piste courses will help but i don't think they are a substitute for experience.
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You know it makes sense.
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Lechbob, Watch a modern ski (freeride) video or race footage. No-one skis like Killy & Stenmark any more, glorious though it looks because its simply not efficient and the pro skiers are much more power athletes these days.
I think your interpretation of everyone may be skewed by too much time exposed to older Arlberg residents - do the park rats ski in the same way, the full face helmet mob?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think fatbob has hit the nail on the head - you could end up skiing chalet-girl style (back seat, fast on blue runs, hopeless if conditions are steeper or less than ideal but OTOH you get excellent drinking skillz) or you can actually work on your technique. sounds like in the latter camp so if you do a season you can become pretty competent
i did a season and actually had only one formal lesson other than BASI courses at either end. if i had my time again i would probably do more, but not that much more. that's how i like to learn though - some people want lots of lessons and that's fine. i was however pretty disciplined about skiing about 6 days out of 7 (except when injured  ) and I skied off piste as much as possible, whatever the conditions.
skiing off-piste isn't just about technique - there are lots of other aspects (safety, navigation, judging the terrain) which you can learn whatever the snow conditions
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Poster: A snowHead
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fatbob,
What's wrong with being an older Arlberg resident ? I'm older & would love to reside there.
I ski like Bode Miller, but slowly & it isn't pretty for cruising !
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lechbob, Nothing - at the end of the day its all about smiles on faces (despite what the technique purists may say) for most of us, so if would make you happy then work on it , maybe in a private lesson with a veteran instructor (asking him to throw away the rule book).
Incidently there is an older guy in Engelberg who skis on his own in a cream sweater, effortlessly on long skis in a similar stance and usually laps the Steinberg faster than most "freeriders". I'm sure most people who've skied off piste there must have eyed him with a little bit of envy.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I am finding it hard in retirement to shake off the many years of work with target oriented regimes and want to improve for its own sake. Enjoyment is what I'm after but want to push the bounderies a bit & sometimes I find myself in situations where I have to handle difficult conditions & would like to be able to handle them without anxiety and minimal danger.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Lechbob wrote: |
snowball,
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If you are a keen off-piste skier you seldom ski soft, fluffy powder. I think it is a mistake to equate the two. You need to learn to ski stiffer, compacted powder, heavy wet snow, crud, breakable crust etc.
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You sound like the SCGB people we bumped into who were offended that we were enjoying ourselves rather than seriously skiing.
Do you enjoy broken crust or is it the satifaction of summounting the difficulty ? |
No, nobody skis breakable crust for choice, it is the most difficult type of snow. There is some satisfaction in managing it but it is hard to ski it fast and fluently, ie pleasurably. It is more that you are bound to come accross it if you ski much off piste - and have to ski it at times to get to or from the nice stuff.
The week I did Heli skiing in Canada almost everything above the tree line was breakable crust and you wouldn't have skied if you couldn't ski it. The stuff in the trees and lower down was glorious though.
I don't know why you think saying light powder skiing is only a small part of off piste means I don't want you to enjoy yourself. With that attitude why do you want to master powder. Don't you think it might be fun? Most other types of snow are fun too. (Don't you enjoy the challenge of steeper slopes - or does enjoying yourself mean you stay on blue runs?).
You would only occasionally ski off piste if you insisted on fluffy powder and you obviously couldn't book an off piste holiday with a guide. That's OK if that's what you want - I was just pointing out that off piste and powder were not quite the same thing.
I just find off piste much more enjoyable than on piste. That is partly because I am getting away into the wild mountains, making first tracks where there is nobody and nothing man-made in sight - but also skiing well in challenging conditions - coping with the natural mountain conditions rather than something artificially created for you - is part of the enjoyment.
In the Haute Maurienne a couple of years ago it hadn't snowed for 10 days and it had been quite warm, but our guide found us lots of north facing slopes which it was a pleasure to ski. For example, with a 20 minute walk from the top lift in one area, our guide found us a whole big valley with about 5 tracks in it. We made first tracks and it was great fun, but obviously it wasn't fluffy powder. Of course we could have skied the pistes but it would have been boring (and a waste of our wonderful guide).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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you'll improve loads, just don't ski in the back seat and you're instantly better than 90% of week holiday skiers anyway
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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snowball, I envy your prowess but I am proud of my progress despite my age, lack of co-ordination & natural ability. Once away from the bar I need reality check as I don't think I would be physically up to trecking far from the piste but would like a bit more fun with powder flying without holding others back.
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Lechbob, What snowball says. Basically you get what you get off-piste so you need a set of tools to deal with it. Being good on-piste doesn't automatically qualify off it, IME even if you aren't trying to do anything different.
My thing is just get out there and do it..even in stuff the locals turn their noses up at. They can afford to as they can wait out for the too few powder days. In Europe, you need to be able to cope..most of that comes from confidence and a decent enough technique. Relish and embrace the great blue-bird fresh stuff but don't avoid the crap because it will be there anyway when you don't want it to. Nobody goes searching for breakable crust....and this is a very wide meaning term...but there is some satisfaction is being able to ski it well.
In fresh stuff on a fine day...any old turn will work well enough but you aren't always that lucky.
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On the subject of skiing and building up time on snow, I think a season will bring you on wonderfully...if you don't waste the time. You probably need to push yourself and self teaching or skiing with like-minded people is great...if you learn from it. Copying someone else's clueless habits isn't a good idea tho'...so as long as you know where you are trying to get to...you should improve. You only have yourslef to blame if you don't.
I must admit to being undecided about how to divide the time of improving and having fun. There will be trade-offs, IMV
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| JT wrote: |
| I must admit to being undecided about how to divide the time of improving and having fun. There will be trade-offs, IMV |
With a good instructor I don't think there is too big a trade-off. Some of my most enjoyable skiing last season was done "in class".
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rob@rar, Maybe fun isn't the right description... but I do think there is a trade-off between putting yourself through lessons enough against just getting out there and doing it. It all comes down to quality in which ever way you go.
I am sure we have talked about this before, but accepting that most of us have a finite time on snow, I think I'd be a better skier technically with lessons..but I'd be less able to do what I can do. I am utterly convinced of that. Where would I have that trade-off if I had the time again...?? I'd think I'd do the same... as you just could not buy some of the times and adventures I've had..
I think I have been lucky in that we all pushed each other without jealousies and such-like over quite a period of time. We look and learn, swot a bit and just need to set aside a few more practice hours
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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JT, the bits of lessons that I enjoyed the most were of the 'tactical' variety where I was taken to off-piste terrain that I wouldn't have willingly skied without the instructor. To support your point, I've also done my fair share of 'technical' lessons which were functional rather than enjoyable. I think the key is to get the balance between the tactical and the technical right. Get it wrong and your skiing will improve slowly or a ski holiday which is meant to be enjoyable will feel like doing homework!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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As to the question - it should have a big effect on your skiing (though I've never done it I really regret that I didn't).
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snowball, never too late! 
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You know it makes sense.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Lechbob, Watch a modern ski (freeride) video or race footage. No-one skis like Killy & Stenmark any more, glorious though it looks |
I bet they wish they could though
http://hk.youtube.com/v/j7dCVc8Dntw
http://hk.youtube.com/v/-lpFWjOFe8w
although to my untrained eye they both seem to employ a wider adaptive stance and beyond ski lengths and radius I think the basics are still there. Killy could ski hardpack or powder with his technique.
As for doing a season... what the people above say. Make sure you are building on a sound base if you want to have good skills. That means starting on the piste to get edging, weighting, balance etc right then going off piste. You will need to ski with expert mates or a guide. Oh and don't kill yourself, a season is far too short to learn good mountaincraft but long enough to get way out of one's depth.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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davidof, I'm more concerned about the top related video on your Killy link
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Actually my last ski lesson off piste the instructor (nu skool) had me constantly trying to get feet close together ( skis were 72 but not powder more crud). He said it was better for control.
1lesson a week sounds good but not if I'm working in resort.
Maybe I should just credit card the season up and not work
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| davidof, I'm more concerned about the top related video on your Killy link |
Something to do with rear entry ski boots?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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GordonFreeman, you have to bring your feet back together for skiing powder, otherwise you end up with a channel of snow hitting you in the nuts*. * other reasons do exist to.
The real truth is it depends on how you learn. I haven't had a ski lesson since I was 8 or 9, well some race training in my teens but I'm 31 now and have only had a tiny bit of coaching over the last few years.
I learn well by watching, and by following. I learn lots by watching ski movies and I am luck enough to ski with good skiers lots of the time that push me.
I so often see groups of seasonaires that might even be having a free weekly lesson but because they ski with people who don't push their skiing then don't improve.
I have other friends who have been hungry to improve and in just one season go from OK to superb - just by skiing with the right people.
Lechbob, have fun skiing, even if that means improving your 'old school' technique. However, if you want to improve your skiing with much less effort embrace the new school, it's here for a reason... Modern skis used with the correct modern technique will make all of those places where you struggled in the past easier - moguls / off piste. Anyone can ski a piste, knees together or John Wayne style.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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parlor,
precisely that - if the sun is behind me I can see my shadow looks ridiculous.
I have new school technique ingrained - it is great for carving on piste & takes cake of unexpected bumps but I am told you need to have feet nearer together with even pressure off piste + it also lends itself to putting more pressure on the outside ski which is great for tight slalom turns but just makes you spin in off piste.
GordonFreeman,
Sorry misread the original question, I am sure a full season would improve skiing, fitness & life in general if not your finances. I only managed 10 weeks skiing last season in 10 different resorts. I'm still trying to decide where I would like to spend all season but I'm no nearer to deciding which is favourite (Never been to La Rosiere). I have come to the conclusion I would miss the variety and much of the pleasure is meeting new people. It may be a different experience to have a place somewhere & become part of a community.
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As Lechbob says, you need even pressure on the skis off piste, but as I understand it, new carving technique tends to even up the pressure on the skis too - as compared with the old "weight on the outside ski" method. (I confess I learned long ago and have picked up carving from a few tips and no proper lessons.)
I skied a day with some saisonniers a few years ago near the end of the season and I was out-voted and we skied on a glacier (stupid, but they said they had been there before and it was quite safe). I thought they must know a bit what they were doing, but they hadn't a clue. They were skiing over cravasses and had no idea they were there, and even did a jump where if they had fallen they would have gone straight into a crevasse that it turned out they didn't know was there either!!! (I did a detour). So don't assume that saisonniers know what they are doing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^^^ another thing that improves doing a season is your saisonnier cowd00 detector 
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| Lechbob wrote: |
parlor,
precisely that - if the sun is behind me I can see my shadow looks ridiculous.
I have new school technique ingrained - it is great for carving on piste & takes cake of unexpected bumps but I am told you need to have feet nearer together with even pressure off piste + it also lends itself to putting more pressure on the outside ski which is great for tight slalom turns but just makes you spin in off piste. |
You need some better instructors then. Sounds like you would benefit from doing a course like Warren Smith Ski Academy*. *others are available - search for the one you want to do.
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