Speeding skiers and boarders, hit-and-runs, and the law ...

A snowHead

... in this case the law in Colorado. Kim Marquis of Summit Daily News discusses the ongoing problems of collisions, ski patrol enforcement (or the lack of it) and the law, in this thought-provoking article.

How heavy should they get?

A snowHead

There is always an amount of danger in skiing/boarding. The only way to make it safe would be to introduce speed restrictions which would reduce the excitement.

Maybe the lift companys shoud limit the passes sold. This would reduce the chances of a collision, but this is unlikely to happen if it reduces the profits.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Very interesting article. The problem in France rather than the States is that the lift companies sell a pass to use the ski lifts not a pass to ski on the mountain. Therefore they have no right to take a lift pass away from anyone ski-ing or riding dangerously. They did try it in Espace Killy a few years ago, but lost the resultant court case, so now no-one can do it. The dangerous piste users know this, and are becoming increasingly agressive when tackled about their lack of control (not necessarily speed).

It seems to me that in France we do need to change the name and way of selling the lift passes to allow for their removal from these people. Of course in the States people don't usually go for a whole weeks ski-ing holiday, but in Europe imagine how pi**ed off someone would be if they lost their chance to ski on the first or second day of their holiday! I think it would work, although the article clearly doesn't think removal of the lift pass is sufficient.

We now have a law in Isère to cover serious injury or death, and a person causing these can be jailed, but most accidents are not that serious. When I was run into I lost 5 weeks work, and have suffered with my neck ever since. This is my living - not a holiday, and the longer you're on the mountain (particularly when you're concentrating on your clients/job) the greater the risk.

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I dont know the solution would be to remove a persons ticket. If a skier were obliged to be insured, there could be a universal ticketing system such that you would buy a lift ticket linked to your insurance. Then, as I read recently, those who are a danger could be fined, ticketed or whatever, this would then be logged with their insurance and their premiums resultantly rise.....

Alternatively, ski vigilantes....

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easiski, is there some general civil or criminal law these people could be stung with, since their lift passes can't be summarily removed?

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I'd support some sort of clamp down - particularly on the main run down in the evening at busy resorts. OTOH there are slopes where, perhaps, beginners should be expected to keep clear from.

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laundryman, Not as far as I know. PG might have more info since he's more into the whole "French" thing than I am (speaks it better too!)

buns, insurance isn't the issue - the guy who hit me was insured and they paid me, but by that time I was 2 months behind with the rent and the bills etc. and had to settle for less than I wanted just to get some money! Serious discouragement is what's required.

Last season one of my clients was very nearly hit by a speeding skier (at a slow sign). She just missed and carried on. When I found her half a K further down the piste and lambasted her, she said "but your client turned" - EXCUSE ME?????????????? rolling eyes

After all it is free

Just had a jolly thought - we should hang them up (upside down) by the skis for 30 mins outside the local tourist office - around 5pm would be good. Perhaps a large sign on their bodies saying "dangerous skier"? We used to call this a binding test in Scotland way back when. Twisted Evil

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In pricinple I wouldn't want to see any regulation of skiing except self regulation.

But...Sunday in Val D'Isere was chaos - too many people on too little snow.

That's difficult to handle, and the lift operators won't restrict access but it's made worse by the number of people with limited to zero piste awareness and basic safety skills. Should one need to qualify for a licence to ski?

If properly applied the FIS "rules" to skiing on piste should be a good start to making the whole process more safe and fun for everyone.

I had to make last minute avoiding action several times to miss people suddenly changing direction (I don't just mean turniing, I mean drastic, unpredictable alteration in line) or setting off without any checking of what's uphill - and got hit by a couple of incompetents out of control getting off the chair behind me. (In partial mitigation there was a crowd milling around at the top of the Leisse and icy so it was trickier than usual vacating the landing zone).

You know it makes sense.

David, I don't want to be the policeman here but unpredictable (however drastic) movements by the skier ahead have to be allowed for by the skier above. There is no mitigation in the FIS code (increasingly adopted by the courts) for the skier above in a collision, except:

The only responsibilities of the skier below are to stop out of harm's way (at the edge of the piste), and to look up the slope when setting off from the side of the slope. The skier below has the right to break into a traverse or unpredictable change of direction at any time without checking who's approaching.

That's the only logical approach.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

Yes, PG, David Goldsmith, yes, you're absolutely right, uphill skier responsibility carries. Smile

You'll have noticed that I advocate the FIS rules.

4. Overtaking
A skier or snowboarder may overtake another skier or snowboarder ...provided that he leaves enough space for the overtaken [rider] to make any voluntary or involuntary movement.

This I do.

In this instance, should it not be subordinate to,

1. Respect for others
A skier or snowboarder must behave in such a way that he does not endanger or prejudice others.

??

Example: You're happily skiing short swings down one side of the piste. I am skiing slightly faster down the middle of the piste and preparing to overtake.

Questions: Should you check what's behind and overtaking you before (deliberately) tracking straight across the piste? Or can you simply bang in an edge and expect anyone on an intersecting path and behind (and possibly faster) to avoid you?

Obviously I am skiing at a speed and distance that should you have a problem and make an involntary movement I can easily avoid you...

{Just to be clear, 34 years skiing, collision free and counting Little Angel

, touch wood}

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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David Goldsmith,

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

An interesting point, David Murdoch. I recollect an incident in La Thuile last season when I was moving reasonably swiftly down a red, when I went into a guy in front of me. Now the piste was not too busy, and this guy was NOT in my peripheral vision until it was too late.

He had come in so fast on a trajectory to my right, that by the time I saw him he'd moved in front of me as I turned into a right manoevre. As a result, I clipped the back of his skis and binned my run to prevent a bigger pile up. He swore at me in Italian (no idea what he said) and I still have no idea who was in the right, or wrong.

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Mark Hunter, him.

If you're behind you've got the ability to see those below - it's up to you to leave enough room to cover any eventuality. It's just like the "fault" element in a road traffic accident, if you rear end someone (yes, I know, Benny Hill chuckle) then it will be your fault 99.9% of the time.

In your case he was, I suspect, behind you up until the instant prior to contact.

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PG,

Yes, entirely reasonable scenarios where the following skier is totally responsible for avoiding any mishaps.

Thanks!

After all it is free

Its always the speed merchants who cause the bother. Not allowing enough passing space, or blasting down a busy slope. I now ski with my kids, and the speed and proximity with which they are passed truly frightens me at times. If you want to blast then go somewhere quiet, every resort has some suitable areas. The fear and anger that the nutters bring to me is very worrying, as I am concerned at losing my temper big style if one of the kids was hit. Each time a "nutter" flies by just compounds the rising anger. Amazing how having kids can affect the mind. ( sorry for the ramble).

My solution, Piste Police. Change the law, and have a red and yellow card system. Harsh but needed.

Perhaps this is an area which needs exploring a bit more when beginners have lessons. I know it wouldn't catch everyone but it could be incorporated into teaching in a more proactive way and educate a few more into using their grey matter?

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Frosty, how do you then differentiate between "speed" and "control"? I'd think that was an important but difficult distinction. Control would seem more important to me.

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Frosty the Snowman, I agree with your prescription. There's never a policeman when you need one.
Lorraine Agass, I've had safety considerations mentioned lots in lessons.
David Murdoch, An important distinction. I think you're pretty safe sharing the piste with genuine racers.

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I Had a situation last year where I was boarding down a slope, practicing my Carves, reasonable speed. not that many people around. ESF Intructor on RHS of slope facing up hill, students sat paying attention, Instuctor has seen me coming... I am set into a rh Carve, He shouts Allez to one of his students who then just launches straight out on a collision course.
I was committed to a carve and would of taken the pupil out had I tried to avoid them

Luckily they had just got moving and I caught the girl as I came round in my Arms and bought her to a stop, still upright.
I made sure she was OK and apologised for scaring her.
The ESF bloke meanwhile started shouting at me, until I politely offered to "teach him some manners not to mention some slope sense" I also pointed out that he was responsible for the saftey of his students and that at the very least they should have been taught to look behind before setting off.
I asked them whether he had taught them these very fundamental saftey checks and the answer was no.....

The girl was not at fault, he told her to go, she assumed it was safe to do so, I have since learned to give them more room.

I was really annoyed at the time because he was putting his students and others in danger, Yes ultimately as the uphill skier/boarder I was responsible but am I truly responsible for other peoples actions ? Or are you as the downhill party totally devoid of responsibility for your own actions ? Confused

I know you have to draw the line somewhere and as the Uphill person has the benefit of seeing whats in front then it should rest with them, but if you are below and do something stupid or set off without looking and I have given reasonable margin for error, whereas you have given none, then if its going to happen I will protect myself and you will learn to look next time.

I dont go Hammering down crowded slopes, and tend to stay away from the rat runs back down to resort as well, I do class myself as a responsible rider and ride at a speed according to conditions and numbers.

Sorry for the ramble, in the eyes of the law it is cut and dried, in reality I feel it is less so
Cheers
Dom

David Murdoch, Very simple: you are ski-ing out of control if you're going so fast that you cannot take in everything that's going on around you. that is being able to look left and right and the odd glance up the hill. In the case of a professional skier that can be done at quite an impressive speed. Now most skiers will think this is unreasonable, but perhaps they just need to learn better. NehNeh

Having said all that I got done for careless driving many years ago when a woman ran backwards into me at an uphill junction. No witnesses, so I was to blame because I was behind her!

I still go for the drastic action - ruin their holiday if they're dangerous - they won't do it again - perhaps they'll stop ski-ing? Twisted Evil

You know it makes sense.

if pistes get more crowded it might at some point, at least in school holiday weeks, be necessary to bring in speed limits on blue and maybe red slopes. It's not exactly fair, because a good skier will be 100% in control at a speed where an over confident beginner, especially a big one, would be a menace. But it would have the merit of making the blue pistes too boring for the speed merchants and also enable piste patrols to curb the mad bombing children (the worst injury amongst my ski companions was inflicted by a 7 year old bomber, in crouch position with a damn great helmet on, which caught her sideways at knee level when she was standing at the very edge of a piste with her 3 year old, helping her blow her nose). I have experienced the same anxieties as Frosty the Snowman, ski-ing with little ones, but the mad kids need reining in too. Maybe children below a certain age need to be in the care of a responsible adult (like in public swimming pools) who would be held responsible if the children were allowed to ski out of control and hurt someone? Having said all these rather priggish things, I have to confess that the moment when my seven year old cousin misjudged his turn and skittled a very self important ESF instructor who was standing gesturing and pontificating at his class at the time was quite funny. The instructor didn't think so, though only his pride was hurt, but it was a moment of light relief for the class.

For nervous beginners even highly competent fast skiers and boarders are unnerving as they swoosh past and when they look round to spot them coming they are highly likely to fall over, having swung their shoulders in the wrong directions. Maybe more resorts should try to develop dedicated beginners areas which are not on the through route to somewhere more interesting. And all those skiers who grumble about boarders sitting in the middle of the piste should try boarding for a day - being a beginner again is humbling, and you soon learn why they do it! My top way of avoiding injury, though, is to go nowhere near a ski slope at the New Year or February half term holidays - for the same reason I would avoid the autoroute du soleil when Paris empties down it in August, or the M5 when everyone and his caravan is setting out for Cornwall. Not a possibility for those who earn their living in the mountains but the rest of us can manage risk a bit. And the mountains are still a lot safer than the roads we travel to get there. In the best part of a season's ski-ing last year I didn't see one serious collision - most people seemed to be sensible and controlled. One of the (many) merits of a small resort which doesn't attract the boy racers.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Not particularly dangerous, but very annoying is those who shout or bash their poles together as if to say "you have not seen me, I am in the wrong, but Im coming through, ready or not"

A snowHead

Frosty the Snowman, probably not as annoying as the clown in front of you on a narrow track weaving randomly about completely unaware there's someone behind them or as annoying as the self righteous idiot who's well aware you're behind them and is pretending not to realise since they just appointed themselves as the highway patrol of the piste labouring under the impression that travelling slowly gives them priority and absolves them of any responsibility to have regard for other skiers.

Yes I do click my poles in the hope someone won't ski into me, so they will be aware I'm there and so they can't pretend they don't. It's perfectly alright to do so, as long as you ensure you pick a safe a place where there should be ample space to pass and give them time to react.

A snowHead

pam w, Speed limits? They won't be any more effective than the current rules whereby the downhill skier has priority at all times, if they are not enforced. On the roads driving skills are (supposed to be) relatively homogeneous. There's a huge variety in standards on the mountain. On the slopes the expert skier does not, generally speaking, pose a threat, not only because he can manouevre quickly at speed but also because he/she has "slope-sense". Race club skiers, for example, learn to give others users a wide berth. It becomes instinctive - hardly surprising when you think how much time they've actually spent on the snow since they were tiny. They also spent most of their time skiing away from the crowded areas, and when they do return to the resort they do so carefully - otherwise they are punished by the club. The skiers who come steaming down the blues near the resort in tuck position might look to the unpractised eye as if they're good skiers, but they're just beginners trying to look flash for the most part.
cr500dom, in areas where there are groups of beginners, even if they are not moving, it is sensible to ski slowly. If the instructor specifically sent a pupil into your path he was wrong to do so, but you should nonetheless have been able to avoid him/her. Why? Because it is not inconceivable that said pupil might have slid into your path accidentally. Then whose fault is it? Yours, 100%, because you were not giving the group a wide enough berth to allow for unexpected movement.

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Frosty the Snowman, you're obviously right that some people approach those in front of them aggressively, we all see it happen all the time. I just don't see anything intrinsically wrong ensuring someone knows you're there but you've got to give people space of course. Priority uphill or downhill ultimately means nothing, consideration for the other skier goes uphill and downhill Very Happy

Nothing happens on the slopes you don't see in life either, most of us will have seen a piece of outrageous driving on the way home tonight of course.

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Well I assume here, many of those who will be coming down the hill fast will be somewhat better skiers than I (no assumption needed, I know it to be the case!). Now In my short skiing time I have found myself wanting to go faster (though all the same, not all that fast) than other people around me. I can see people below me who are weaving and darting in odd directions.... but even in my total beginner state I can manage to steer and avoid them by a significant distance. I would have thought someone more experienced should have no problem at all doing it..... unless of course they are skiing so fast and still reacting at the same distance I would...... in which case this starts to sound like the old 'stopping distance' gem from driving..... in other words the faster skier cant afford just to look at what is immediately in front, they should be looking in the near distance also.... though maybe with a bit more practice I too will wish to ski like the fast guys.... so that I miss those around me by 6 inches and not 10 feet....

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

easiski, Absolutely agreed, but would add, If you can't stop in time to avoid anyone materialising (from nowhere) in your path, you ain't in adequate control.

BTW, love this discussion! Whose round is it anyway?

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Well I have only skied 10 days, so in MY case, it is safe that even those dangerous skiers are better than I. What im meaning to say is that as a total novice, I can easily miss those around and going slower than I...... so it is sheer laziness and carelessness that others cant do the same.

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Speeding skiers and boarders, hit-and-runs, and the law ...

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