Can somebody please explain the benefits of pole plants?
I'm a self taught skier with 5 weeks of skiing experience but I only ever use my poles on the flat. I would say I'm reasonably competent and have no control issues on blues and most reds but any instructional videos I watch tell me I should initiate turns with a pole plant.
What is the benefit?
Ian
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
it's a focus thing. if you watch ski racers, they don't plant poles, but they do use them to focus the turn etc
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
any instructional videos I watch tell me I should initiate turns with a pole plant.
you may just be watching the wrong videos. If you look at, for example, either Warren Smith or Phil Smith on carving, they won't be telling you any such thing. And you're probably not doing the sort of turns which really need a pole plant, anyway (e.g. moguls). One of the ski instructor people will probably be along shortly with some comments.
pam w, Are you saying you shouldn't plant your poles in moguls? You absolutely should.
It's about timing, balance and momentarily increasing your moment of inertia.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
nbt, it depends how steep the slope is and how tight the turns are. Watching the World Champs this week I've never seen so many pole plants in WC races. In the GS and SL almost every turn was initiated with a solid pole plant. This was because the slope was very steep and the courses were set very tight to limit speed. It was particularly instructive to watch Tessa Worley's run in the GS, where she lost a pole near the top of the run - absolutely fantastic run, but she had to be noticeably less aggressive in each right hand turn as she didn't have the pole to provide the additional impetus to make the pivot at the start of the turn. When turns are smoother and more purely carved the pole plant really is just a focus, but in the tighter turns it really does something.
I had a similar situation myself a few weeks back when on a big off-piste descent I noticed that I'd lost a basket just as we set off (I'd had to replace a broken one earlier in the day and the replacement wasn't quite the right size - and I had no more spares with me). I do a lot of skiing without poles, so it didn't faze me too much, so I still used the pole as a focus but had to be much less positive with shorter turns (particularly down through trees) as any weight on it and it went way down into the deep snow.
Ardsian (and pam w), in carved turns it's primarily a focus to time your body movements - starting the pole plant gets your body moving over the skis to move into the new turn - but there's little if any weight put on it so there's no major contribution to the mechanics of the turn above the psychology, and roughly the same effect is achieved with just the arm movement (I'm a firm believer that the pole plant is the first movement you make in starting the new turn - even if you don't actually make contact with the slope - and in linked turns that may well be while you're still finishing the old one). In shorter radius turns, where there's more pivoting of the skis - such as moguls and fall line turns down a steep slope - a bit of force on the pole helps to get your weight up and off the skis allowing them to release and so start the turn. Again, it can be done just with leg strength, but the pole does help. And, finally, the pole does help quite a bit in correcting lateral balance errors when you are skiing hard - you're not going to get it right every turn and it just gives you a bit of extra stability (e.g. if you overdo the inclincation into a turn and start falling inside). Even in basic piste skiing, it's tremendous practice to ski without poles (and I do a lot of it) and it does a huge amount for your balance, but when you get the poles back again you can be so much more committed in the turns.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 15-02-09 19:40; edited 1 time in total
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Bode Swiller, for big offset open gates yes, but hardly ever in the straighter combinations - as e.g the last 15 gates of each of today's courses
After all it is free
After all it is free
GrahamN, and in moguls you want your arm extension to act as an anticipatory move to your ski pivot - and poles help immensely.
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I was referring mainly to DH /SG, yes of course you're right the more technical course do reqiure a plant. and yes, Tessa Worley' run was jaw-droppingly good, to get so close with only one pole was a stupendous effort
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Bode Swiller, no, I'm suggesting he's probably not doing the turns that need a pole plant. e.g. moguls. probably not v well expressed.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
under a new name, exactly - part of what I was trying to say, but clearly not clearly enough!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
GrahamN wrote:
nbt, it depends how steep the slope is and how tight the turns are. Watching the World Champs this week I've never seen so many pole plants in WC races. In the GS and SL almost every turn was initiated with a solid pole plant. This was because the slope was very steep and the courses were set very tight to limit speed. It was particularly instructive to watch Tessa Worley's run in the GS, where she lost a pole near the top of the run - absolutely fantastic run, but she had to be noticeably less aggressive in each right hand turn as she didn't have the pole to provide the additional impetus to make the pivot at the start of the turn. When turns are smoother and more purely carved the pole plant really is just a focus, but in the tighter turns it really does something.
I had a similar situation myself a few weeks back when on a big off-piste descent I noticed that I'd lost a basket just as we set off (I'd had to replace a broken one earlier in the day and the replacement wasn't quite the right size - and I had no more spares with me). I do a lot of skiing without poles, so it didn't faze me too much, so I still used the pole as a focus but had to be much less positive with shorter turns (particularly down through trees) as any weight on it and it went way down into the deep snow.
Ardsian (and pam w), in carved turns it's primarily a focus to time your body movements - starting the pole plant gets your body moving over the skis to move into the new turn - but there's little if any weight put on it so there's no major contribution to the mechanics of the turn above the psychology, and roughly the same effect is achieved with just the arm movement (I'm a firm believer that the pole plant is the first movement you make in starting the new turn - even if you don't actually make contact with the slope - and in linked turns that may well be while you're still finishing the old one). In shorter radius turns, where there's more pivoting of the skis - such as moguls and fall line turns down a steep slope - a bit of force on the pole helps to get your weight up and off the skis allowing them to release and so start the turn. Again, it can be done just with leg strength, but the pole does help. And, finally, the pole does help quite a bit in correcting lateral balance errors when you are skiing hard - you're not going to get it right every turn and it just gives you a bit of extra stability (e.g. if you overdo the inclincation into a turn and start falling inside). Even in basic piste skiing, it's tremendous practice to ski without poles (and I do a lot of it) and it does a huge amount for your balance, but when you get the poles back again you can be so much more committed in the turns.
Very insightful, thanks for taking the time to reply.
Thinking about it, if I'm making a left turn (right ski downhill) I try to push my right arm forward to keep my torso pointing straight down the hill. I suppose this is the prelude to a pole plant for the upcoming right turn.
I'm off on Saturday so I'll maybe give it a go and see if I get a better rhythm.
Thanks again
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Ardsian, skiers pole plant for the same reason skaters swing their arms side to side and runners swing their arms to and fro: to help get their body to the other side of their currently weighted foot.
Can you run without arm swing? Yes.
Can you skate without arm swing? Yes.
Can you ski without pole swing? Yes.
Do you want to? Prolly not.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Unless you are carving it makes you look more stylish also
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Ardsian wrote:
Thinking about it, if I'm making a left turn (right ski downhill) I try to push my right arm forward to keep my torso pointing straight down the hill.
In some situations, most situations in fact, that's not such a clever thing to be doing. I'd really recommend you find an instructor who can give you some help with core technique.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar, I didn't really understand that sentence, is Ardsian using his arm to prevent a countered stance?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
comprex wrote:
rob@rar, I didn't really understand that sentence, is Ardsian using his arm to prevent a countered stance?
To me it sounded as if he was rotating his shoulders into the turn in an attempt to keep his upper body facing down the fall line in the mistaken belief that you should always face down the valley.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar wrote:
comprex wrote:
rob@rar, I didn't really understand that sentence, is Ardsian using his arm to prevent a countered stance?
To me it sounded as if he was rotating his shoulders into the turn in an attempt to keep his upper body facing down the fall line in the mistaken belief that you should always face down the valley.
Watching too many of the wrong types of instuctional Youtube videos then?
rob@rar, I didn't really understand that sentence, is Ardsian using his arm to prevent a countered stance?
To me it sounded as if he was rotating his shoulders into the turn in an attempt to keep his upper body facing down the fall line in the mistaken belief that you should always face down the valley.
Watching too many of the wrong types of instuctional Youtube videos then?
Yes, there's a considerable danger in watching any instructional videos (I should know as I have quite a large collection!) that you will take one or two soundbites and apply them in the wrong way or the wrong context. There's nothing that can replace having an experienced pair of eyes looking at your skiing and giving some focused instruction on what needs to change, why it needs to change and where you want to go with your skiing. No matter how good the instructional video you're unlikely to have that effective diagnosis of where your skiing is at.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar, ah. Something like:
Ardsian wrote:
Thinking about it, if I'm traversing to the right and preparing to make a left turn ( so that the right ski ends up downhill) I try to push my right arm forward to keep my torso pointing straight down the hill. I suppose this is the prelude to a pole plant for the upcoming right turn.
I'm off on Saturday so I'll maybe give it a go and see if I get a better rhythm.
Thanks again
I originally read it as:
Ardsian wrote:
Thinking about it, if I'm making a left turn ( right ski tail swings downhill) I try to push my right arm forward to keep my torso pointing straight down the hill otherwise the shoulder rotates back as reaction to the tail rotating forward . I suppose this is the prelude to a pole plant for the upcoming right turn.
I'm off on Saturday so I'll maybe give it a go and see if I get a better rhythm.
comprex, I did read it as a proactive move, not a reactive move.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar, now filing that one away for future chats so we don't distract the OP too much.
After all it is free
After all it is free
comprex wrote:
rob@rar, now filing that one away for future chats so we don't distract the OP too much.
Oh dear, should I be scared?
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Ardsian wrote:
Thinking about it, if I'm making a left turn (right ski downhill) I try to push my right arm forward to keep my torso pointing straight down the hill. I suppose this is the prelude to a pole plant for the upcoming right turn.
Quite a few assumptions there and we could go all sorts of ways from here. (And I see now that while writing this rob@rar and comprex have had a go too)
How accurate your initial description is depends on the type of turn you're doing - and what errors you are naturally prone to. In making a left hand turn, the normal beginner error would be to lead the turn by rotating the shoulders so you end up facing into the hill (up the hill and to your left), and get thrown back onto your heels. One way of avoiding this is to push forward with your LEFT hand, so countering the body rotation and maybe developing a bit of counter with the body facing further down the hill than the skis. If though you'd overdone that, and face too far down the hill for a longer radius turn, one way of correcting that would be by pushing round towards the end of the turn with the RIGHT hand. So what you want to do depends on the mistake you naturally make.
How important the pole plant (and associated movements) are really depend on you current skiing level, and how dynamic you're trying to be. Without seeing you ski it's difficult to pitch this - after 5 weeks you could be very good, or you could be (no offence intended) a complete bag of bad habits! We've talked above about the pole plant being an important part of anticipation of the new turn. This is where the movements get the upper body moving into the right position for the new turn right at its start. The danger though is that this is not too dissimilar from an initiation by throwing the shoulders around and let the rest of the body follow dragging the skis around as well (this is called shoulder rotation and is A BAD THING). The distinction between the two is at first sight quite subtle - but absolutely fundamental. In the anticipation, the pole plant a) starts the body coiling up like a spring, so that when the body extension happens and the skis release they whip around to make a really fast initiation to the turn and b) the body is in the right position then to complete the turn. While this may not seem to be that different from throwing the shoulders into the turn, it does feel very different. On steeps that pole plant will frequently be near or behind the heels to get a really strong anticipation.
In the more carvy turn, where the positive pole touch comes in would be if you're wanting to get a high performance transition. Going back to our left hand turn, you're finishing it off with weight largely on the right foot, legs angled to the left of the skis, and maybe some angulation of the upper body to the outside of the turn (your right). In the transition to the new turn you lead with the right hand out and forward, as you push on your left foot to get your hips moving across the skis - although that forward extension of the hand and arm is actually achieved by projecting the bodyforward to pressure the fronts of the skis and get a strong engagement of the left hand ski to initiate the turn. The lead with the hand then finishes off with making a pole touch on (or maybe just near) the snow surface on the right hand side of the skis as your body inclines into the new (right hand) turn.
The other big danger with the above is that you end up just flapping your hands around and causing more balance problems than you start with - the object is for the movements to be natural and fluid, dynamic but no more than is necessary. This is frequent talked about as having a "quiet upper body", you want just enough movement, not too much and not too little, and it's very difficult to describe how much is "just enough". And of course "just enough" depends on the conditions - look at a WC racer (as amply demonstrated this week) and their hands are all over the place, but that's because these are the world's best athletes skiing to (and frequently beyond) their absolute limits.
Whether any of the above is actually relevant to your own skiing or not, or is just going to be confusing, I really can't tell without seeing you, but it gives you an idea of where you may eventually want to be heading. And if you want to be more confused, here are some more threads on the subject:
Pole Planting Skiing Myth #2 - We no longer pole plant in modern technique
As Rob said, it may well be a good idea to get an instructor to have a look at you and give you some good pointers.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
GrahamN wrote:
Ardsian wrote:
Thinking about it, if I'm making a left turn (right ski downhill) I try to push my right arm forward to keep my torso pointing straight down the hill. I suppose this is the prelude to a pole plant for the upcoming right turn.
Quite a few assumptions there and we could go all sorts of ways from here. (And I see now that while writing this rob@rar and comprex have had a go too)
How accurate your initial description is depends on the type of turn you're doing - and what errors you are naturally prone to. In making a left hand turn, the normal beginner error would be to lead the turn by rotating the shoulders so you end up facing into the hill (up the hill and to your left), and get thrown back onto your heels. One way of avoiding this is to push forward with your LEFT hand, so countering the body rotation and maybe developing a bit of counter with the body facing further down the hill than the skis. If though you'd overdone that, and face too far down the hill for a longer radius turn, one way of correcting that would be by pushing round towards the end of the turn with the RIGHT hand. So what you want to do depends on the mistake you naturally make.
How important the pole plant (and associated movements) are really depend on you current skiing level, and how dynamic you're trying to be. Without seeing you ski it's difficult to pitch this - after 5 weeks you could be very good, or you could be (no offence intended) a complete bag of bad habits! We've talked above about the pole plant being an important part of anticipation of the new turn. This is where the movements get the upper body moving into the right position for the new turn right at its start. The danger though is that this is not too dissimilar from an initiation by throwing the shoulders around and let the rest of the body follow dragging the skis around as well (this is called shoulder rotation and is A BAD THING). The distinction between the two is at first sight quite subtle - but absolutely fundamental. In the anticipation, the pole plant a) starts the body coiling up like a spring, so that when the body extension happens and the skis release they whip around to make a really fast initiation to the turn and b) the body is in the right position then to complete the turn. While this may not seem to be that different from throwing the shoulders into the turn, it does feel very different. On steeps that pole plant will frequently be near or behind the heels to get a really strong anticipation.
In the more carvy turn, where the positive pole touch comes in would be if you're wanting to get a high performance transition. Going back to our left hand turn, you're finishing it off with weight largely on the right foot, legs angled to the left of the skis, and maybe some angulation of the upper body to the outside of the turn (your right). In the transition to the new turn you lead with the right hand out and forward, as you push on your left foot to get your hips moving across the skis - although that forward extension of the hand and arm is actually achieved by projecting the bodyforward to pressure the fronts of the skis and get a strong engagement of the left hand ski to initiate the turn. The lead with the hand then finishes off with making a pole touch on (or maybe just near) the snow surface on the right hand side of the skis as your body inclines into the new (right hand) turn.
The other big danger with the above is that you end up just flapping your hands around and causing more balance problems than you start with - the object is for the movements to be natural and fluid, dynamic but no more than is necessary. This is frequent talked about as having a "quiet upper body", you want just enough movement, not too much and not too little, and it's very difficult to describe how much is "just enough". And of course "just enough" depends on the conditions - look at a WC racer (as amply demonstrated this week) and their hands are all over the place, but that's because these are the world's best athletes skiing to (and frequently beyond) their absolute limits.
Whether any of the above is actually relevant to your own skiing or not, or is just going to be confusing, I really can't tell without seeing you, but it gives you an idea of where you may eventually want to be heading. And if you want to be more confused, here are some more threads on the subject:
Pole Planting Skiing Myth #2 - We no longer pole plant in modern technique
As Rob said, it may well be a good idea to get an instructor to have a look at you and give you some good pointers.
Great info, many thanks
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Unless I'm full-on carving (to the best of my abilities anyway), on a nice open piste, I tend to use a pretty aggressive pole plant. I usually end up with dodgey thumbs by the end of the trip. Am I doing something wrong?
-obviously you haven't seen me ski, but is it possible to use to rely too much on pole-planting?
Possibly a stupid question, but I just seem to use my poles alot more than anyone else I see.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Fergus wrote:
Unless I'm full-on carving (to the best of my abilities anyway), on a nice open piste, I tend to use a pretty aggressive pole plant. I usually end up with dodgey thumbs by the end of the trip. Am I doing something wrong?
-obviously you haven't seen me ski, but is it possible to use to rely too much on pole-planting?
Possibly a stupid question, but I just seem to use my poles alot more than anyone else I see.
Unless I'm on very steep terrain or doing very long radius turns my pole plants are just a touch on the snow, if any contact is made at all. They are much more like a timing aid and to stabilise my body at the end of the turn than to get any force from the pole plant. Why would you want a powerful pole plant on easy terrain?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rob@rar wrote:
doing very long radius turns
Do you mean that..shurely shome mishtake?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
GrahamN wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
doing very long radius turns
Do you mean that..shurely shome mishtake?
Yes, thanks you, I meant very short radius turns
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar wrote:
GrahamN wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
doing very long radius turns
Do you mean that..shurely shome mishtake?
Yes, thanks you, I meant very short radius turns
To be a little bit more precise, short radius, long arc turns. Short radius, short arc turns (as in a verticale gate) are done without a plant.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Naturally (although the radius in a verticale is probably not all that short)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
If it's steep and bumpy then good solid pole plants are a key to staying in control. In wider faster turns pole plants can be much more subtle or almost non-existent. If you're not using your poles at all, you're probably not skiing as well as you could be. The benefits are real and it's something to really work on if you want to master steeper tricky terrain.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
... the idea about the pole......is a bit confused here!!!!!!......
the pole we need only on narrow and short tuns....the reason is that the movement of extension it is to sharp and if we don't plant we extend also the upper body....that is the wrongest thing you can do......so for permit to extend only the legs we use the planting pole......
someone here see a planting pole on a worls cup geant.......nothing more wrong.....if you watch very well you will see that they never real plant......the slide the pole on the snow for focus the movement.....but if one plant with power the pole.....you have to think he is going more than 60 km per hours.....that mean that the pokle robound behind you and we loose the balance.....we cannot plant at that speed.........we just slide on the snow...........and don't start any pivot.....in a race we don't pivot.......we carve.....pivot we use in the bumps......if I uinderstand "pivot " what mean........
lungostyle, can a straight line followed by a pivot be faster than a carve?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Ardsian, I'd agree with exactly what uktrailmonster says.
Some of the posts here are good written analyses of technique points which might perhaps be better conveyed - if you have only skiied 5 weeks - by watching and talking to a good instructor.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
edsilva wrote:
why plant poles?
to grow lots of little uns
I was once told by an instructor that it is to do with brats.
B....... Balance
R........Rhythm
A........Agility
T........Timing
S........Support
After all it is free
After all it is free
stewart woodward wrote:
edsilva wrote:
why plant poles?
to grow lots of little uns
I was once told by an instructor that it is to do with brats.
B....... Balance
R........Rhythm
A........Agility
T........Timing
S........Support
I like that. One to remember for the future.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
lungostyle, notice I said in my second post that the pole plant for a more carvy turn is more of a timing touch. But let's look at some of the footage from the recent championships.
Starting with someone quite a way down the field - Sofia Ralli 49th when she crossed the line. Very definite pole plants and very obvious pivots on entry to pretty much every turn until about 1.00 into her run, when the course opens out and she can carve more - when the pole plants also get radically toned down.
But let's look at some of the best. How about Hoelzl in her winning run? Loads of definite pole plants from 0:20 into the clip onwards. Also big pivot initiations in the turns from 0:30 onwards (particularly at 42 seconds and two at 48-50 seconds). As it flattens out towards the end (1:03 onwards) she can get back to putting in clean carves.
In Ted Ligety's storming second run, the commentators make a good point about him being able to carve many turns that others can't, and he manages to pretty much fully carve the first 10 turns. After that though he's pivoting the entry to pretty much every turn until about 1:18 into the clip - particularly look at the turn at 1:00, which we see from the back, and also at 1:04 - and using the pole plant/touch to get the upper body angulation (0:35 to about 1:10) early in the turn. He only stops doing so in the run out towards the end (1:16 onwards)
OK, so Janka in his winning run does very little pole planting, and he manages to carve more turns than pretty much anyone else, but even he puts in a few pivots (particularly 42 and 49 seconds into the clip).
Here's that Tessa Worley run. She doesn't actually plant particularly definitely - her arms flailing about rather more as she tries to keep her balance - but once she loses her right hand pole that right arm clearly does a huge amount more flailing as she struggles for balance.
And pivots are not just in the tighter turn discilines. Here's Cuche winning the super-G if those are not pivots at 0:29, 0:32, 0:52, 0:55, 0:59, 1:03, 1:05......well I'm an Italian
On and finally, a clip we've seen many times before: massive pole plants and pivots aplenty from Kostelic, Schoenfelder and Raich.
Some instructor really ought to take these guys in hand and tell them how much faster they'd be if they didn't pivot in races .
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
If you look at, for example, either Warren Smith or Phil Smith on carving, they won't be telling you any such thing. And you're probably not doing the sort of turns which really need a pole plant, anyway (e.g. moguls). One of the ski instructor people will probably be along shortly with some comments.
.
