Is "follow me" a good, bad or indifferent teaching technique?

A snowHead

I know what i believe, what do you think?

A snowHead

skimottaret, It depends. wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

ski, thats that sorted then Laughing

i can now go for my walk before the footy

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I think it can be good for building some confidence and deffinately works for some people-think it's overused.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I think it's a bad way of teaching but can work (to an extent) for some. Last year my daughter had private lessons each day with the ESF in St Sorlin D'Arves and I tagged along too. It was very much "follow me" and I learned nothing from it, however my daughter's skiing improved quite a lot as she learned from following, observing and imitating the instructor. This year however we had a similar arrangement with easiski who's far from follow me and we both learned a great deal more from that.

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skimottaret, I always had the attitude that clients were there to discover as much of the terrain as possible and that they learned more by getting more miles under their feet - especially true of kids who weren't into drills and listening and learnt more by copying and doing. So, as long as you throw in simple tips, corrections and excercises along the way, I think I'm a fan of "follow me".

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I think it can be a very valuable teaching tool. I also think it can be abused massively. So as ski said, it depends Wink

Setting a line and pace for clients can be a good thing, provided it's not the only thing you are doing. For clients who prefer to learn by copying what the instructor is doing it can be a useful, although doing this with a 'ski school snake' has limited value for any client after about 3 or 4 in the line.

After all it is free

skimottaret, You're on a right crusade this summer. Little Angel

I think it's great if you're the one behind the instructor. I practiced this technique in ski school. Very Happy

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erica2004, wrote:-

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It all depends on the instructor. If the instructor is good at class management then follow me can be a valuable tool. Each pupil must get a period of time behind the instructor if the object is for the pupil to be able to observe what the instructor is doing.

When I learnt in the early seventies many foreign instructors only had limited English so I was keen to follow them as most of my learning was by watching - not by listening then doing. Must of worked quite well as only 9 weeks of skiing later I was doing my (then) BASI 3 training and was told to present myself as soon as possible for the assessment.

IF HOWEVER it is just being used because the instructor is a lazy git - then that's a different matter. So as SKI says - it depends.

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If "follow me" is used as a substitute for real instruction, then no, it's poor value. I know some instructors do this. If done with structure, with a purpose, a stated task or technical focus, then it's an excellent way to continue refining a skill once an initial introduction of the drill/task has been made, and some success with basic execution has been attained. It's having to execute a particular task while following a required course of travel. Similar to the extra challenge a race course introduces.

Also it can be helpful to pair up students,,, one who is having success with the drill being worked on, and one having some trouble. Have the one having trouble follow the one doing it well. It provides a visual model for the one having trouble to try to emulate. Can work well for visual learners. Suggestion: instructor do the pairing and tell them who follows who, but don't tell them your reasons for your choices. Sit's better with the egos of the followers. Just treat it as a learning game. Have them switch leaders later on.

Is "follow me" a teaching technique?! Don't remember ever being shown how to use this teaching method on any course i've been on! If there is no focus on either an input or output to the skiing, then all that is happening is very expensive guiding!
Also IMO a 'snake' can be benefical for all behind the instructor, not just the first few, as following will stop the client having to think too much about the choice of speed and line and focus on the exercises.

You know it makes sense.

skimottaret, a friend of mine (who now runs an alpine ski school) once, only once, said follow me. He then led me at very high speed over 1km worth of very challenging vertical.

Apart from it being great fun...his objective was to HEAR how well I was carving in tricky stuff at speed. He is a gifted teacher and knew exactly what to listen for, when adnd could then give me feedback based on that,

Fun, very useful and deeply impressive...

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

If used to help students make better shaped turns, travel at a more constant speed, or for confidence boosting on trickier slopes it's very useful. for kids it's generally excellent since the last thing you want to do with small children is exercises - bore them to death! It is true that some instructors use it as a 'cheat' which is a shame. Personally I don't think it's the instructor's job to show peeps around the mountain. Our job is to teach people to ski, so travelling should only be part of this - they have TO guides for 'discovery'! wink

A snowHead

easiski, But your follow me is helped by you having eyes in the back of your head so that you can scream instructions back when students go wrong wink

Or is that just me Embarassed

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Qualifying most previous post that it is generally bad, what I meant is that's the case when it is the only teaching method with very little explaination to support it.

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Humans learn through their 5 senses.

Watching attentively, with eyes, is one of those senses.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I think when used in the "traditional" ESF way it with no follow up questions/analysis it is not tremendously valuable, except perhaps to the instructor who gets an easy way to run a lesson.

As a means of pushing people to advance their skills, perhaps getting peeople with mental blocks off the plateaux, and with the right instructor who is skilled in sneaking glances and picking lines it works IMO. Lots of the freeride type courses seem to incorporate a lot of this.

Close follow-me is very tricky - try getting within a couple of ski lengths of a friend and mirroring their turns. Really exposes your weaknesses. Then try taking it into the trees wink

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Most of the time the good people stay behind the teacher while the people who aren't as good lag behind, the gap between the good and less good widens. Group lessons are useless imo, especcially when your a kid because most kids are racing each other to get at the front rather then watching and learning.

After all it is free

I'm with ski and rob@rar, - it depends on the learner.

As others have said, if follow me is all the instructor does the whole time, then it's a lazy cop out. It can be beneficial however to have "follow me" in certain circumstances.

In 2006 (when I was still a relative beginner and was just getting into plough parallel turns), I had a group lesson in Italy with a young chap from a ski school there. Didn't know about BASI then (although I don't think they have any BASI ski schools in that particular resort in Italy anyhow).

That was all we did, follow the instructor with little or no feedback. Very few times we were swapped so that it was a different person following him. It was really boring to me and after 2-3 days of that I was no further on and packed it in. Learned far more that week just by practising on my own through trial and error. The next time I had lessons it was on a course with Inspired to Ski and what a difference it made! Very Happy

On that note I had a lesson relatively recently with a BASI ISTD. There was a little bit of follow me but only occasionally and there was a real purpose to it and he made sure I knew why I was doing the following that time. Also the same chap earlier that season (in a group lesson that time) did a bit of follow me but we changed the person following but it was one at a time so there was no one behind you and again, we knew why we were doing it and it was fun. Feedback is important even after follow me. They must be able to tell an awful lot by listening to your skis because they know what you've been doing without turning round a lot! Laughing

Also I think them skiing behind you is good so they can see you from the back view.

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I've done some good "follow me" - and have found that instructors will swap people round so it's not always the same eager beaver at the front. As several posts above have noted instructors can tell what's happening when you're close. "You're still leaving that inside knee behind" for example. And it can be particularly valuable when people are "getting down" a slope but not in control. I joined a class half way through a week once, after hubby flew home to attend to a domestic emergency. The class was a bit above my level and I told the instructor (ESF) I was worried I might not be fast enough to keep up with them. The instructor said he was more bothered that they would be going too slow for me - he told me to "follow him" closely, exactly in his tracks, down a steep red run and got very arsy if he could hear me getting too close. That was an excellent and thought-provoking exercise, making me complete and control the turns. I've also enjoyed some speedy carving, with the instructor choosing the line. Done some boring "follow me" too - it all depends on how much of an effort the instructor is making. Good one all have eyes in the back of their heads, obviously.

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Really good for setting the Speed and Amplitude, by getting the class to ski at your speed and in the same tracks.

One tool among many depending on what you are trying to achieve. Not so good if it's the only tool rolling eyes

You know it makes sense.

I agree that it depends...

I am fan of a visual reference.... if you want to end up skiing like the proponent and you have the skills to do so.
Also, useful for you to get this reference and dial it in..and self fix, if you are so inclined and able.

But like most complicated muscles memory acts, you need constant updating or those little things can grew into bigger things.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I have to say I think it's abused too often and so should be avoided - it's a brilliant way to dent someone's confidence

If you're paying for lessons you want to learn something. As a 'beginner' at Les 2 Alpes I wanted to get better - but when the instructor said "follow me and do what I'm doing" to the beginner group, how were we supposed to follow him?? If we knew what he was doing we wouldn't have been beginners ... and then when we had fallen over halfway down the slope the instructors weren't there to guide us - and couldn't see what we were doing (or not doing) because they were ahead of us!

Bad technique IMHO - if the instructors can explain what they want you to do then they can follow you. If they can't explain it to you, they shouldn't be teaching.

A snowHead

A snowHead

great comments all...

I have been thinking about this as my last few coaching sessions to get me to ski better has turned very much towards the "follow me" approach. I have been told i am way too "input" focused and not enough "output" focussed. I should just find more challenging terrain and then challenge myself following better skiers. If i ski bad i crash, i ski well i survive... taking this approach I will improve more than performing drills. As a paying student I struggle with that concept as i would feel short changed if i am not being given things "to work on" or drills/tips that i can take away and practice. But, the body learns quicker with the mind turned off so i do believe it is a very good tool.

A good teacher I had felt that follow me (with a structure and planned purpose) whilst leading with a speed and style just slightly more advanced than the group will bring students on quicker than any other technique. Boring snakes that dont challenge the students doesnt work, but amp it up a bit, work in partners, or get them into challenging terrain and presto...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

skimottaret, I agree with that. I've never been very keen on drills and exercises, with one or two exceptions. For my learning the "follow me" works well but only if I have been given one or two things to focus on and I get some feedback (either from myself or from the instructor).

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rob@rar, yeah, feedback is very important, and it also gets rid of the "short changed" feeling for me..

I am getting to like drills, mainly cause until last year i never did any and they are great for practising in the fridge. There are loads i haven't tried, plus lots i have tried and cant do. It is a bit embarrassing having the 10 year olds run rings around me... (latest example was one ski 360's)

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I found it very valuable when used as a limited supplement to other instruction - in 2004 at the EpicSki Academy, 2006 at Straightline Adventures and last year by our guide/instructor in Espace Killy. Especially in the latter two cases, I realised that there are many things I could improve as I was unable to match the instructor's turn shape consistently at speed.

But overall I learn best when someone explains things to me, then tells me what I'm doing wrong (and right), rather than just by imitating an instructor. If anything, on really challenging terrain I ski much better finding my own line than following someone else's (I almost broke a knee in a forest once, trying to follow the guide at speed). That's because I work out what's going wrong and adjust for it, rather than focus on what the instructor is doing in front of me. (Of course, if I was a much better skier I could follow the instructor's line and ski well at the same time...)

Video analysis in the evening is great, too, especially if slow-mo is also used.

I've had a pretty poor "follow me" experience with an instructor in Les Arcs. I sort of feel for him though. He had been teaching beginners for a week, and when I showed up and he realised I could keep up, his eyes glinted and he was off like a rocket.

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skimottaret, Just dropped you a PM wink

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

skimottaret, You do need input and feedback. But mostly (IMV) you need to ski outside of your comfort zone. By that I mean making movements (good or bad) that you don't habitually do when skiing. You can get this in several ways - Drills are one, or you could follow someone else - either to somewhere you wouldn't normally go, or doing something you wouldn't normally do - together with honest feedback (from yourself and others) about the result.

After all it is free

ski, you nailed it with your last post Cool

Just remembered an off shoot of the "follow me drill" from my last BASI course... I think it is called "catch me". On the last day we had GS skis on and the coach took us to the top of the Glacier and said to ski down to the bottom (around 1500 vertical metres) the bits we could see as fast as we could with GS turns, only making shorter turns down at drop offs, other people, etc for safety.

6 1/2 minutes later at the bottom we were all dying and he said we are going to do it again, but this time since we know the "course" we will do it with GS turns the whole way and downhill the flat sections.

At the bottom with legs shaking we got asked if anyone was knackered, everyone held their hands up and we got told "one more time" as a school of thought is that an exhausted skiers body will naturally find the most efficient way to stand on the skis during speed events. He says "It can increase the number of injuries, but definately works IMO; on this run i would like everyone to go as fast as possible" Eyes got very wide and he says for safety reasons we will space out one at a time and follow each other. I manage to pass two people Toofy Grin

and can see my mate John who during a big sweeping left hander just keeps going wider and wider, hits a piste pole and has a monster crash. I try not to follow him...

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skimottaret, out of interest, where did you come by the traniers booklet?? could come in handy Laughing

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Is "follow me" a good, bad or indifferent teaching technique?

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