 Poster: A snowHead
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Is there such a thing these days as a ‘snow’ sure’ resort? I’m toying with ADH, LDA or somewhere similar about 6th December and am torn about what to do…
On the one hand, if we book now (there’s me and the missus), put down a deposit and have a set date then the pressure is off, we have to go (there’s no changing of minds) and we’ll save accordingly in the run-up. Plus it gives us a couple of months then to look at another trip in March or April and save for that…
… however, on the other hand, we don’t know what the snow is going to be like that early in the season and we could be tied into a holiday that doesn’t live up to expectations (possibly).
The decision will be made at some point this week but just wanted a few opinions on where peeps have been this early in the season and whether they’ve ‘known’ that the resort will provide the goods because traditionally the resort has received good cover?
Discuss.... 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 28-07-08 17:01; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Specialman, why not wait until closer to the date and chase the best snow? No problem with getting accommodation in the resorts that are open that early in the season. Book your time off, and even your flights, but wait until the snow comes before deciding what resort to head to.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, was looking at the beginning of Jan, when we've always been blessed with good snow. However, my missus' work will be tricky to get time off and because she woeks one week on, obne off, by the time her next week comes around we'll be looking at the run-up to feb and then the school rush.
I know what you mean; it's always best to wait but this year I'm chomping at the bit and really do want to fit at least two trips in (possibly three), and a December trip would allow that.
Will be interesting what everyone else thinks to early-season skiing/boarding...
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Specialman, I've skied in Tignes/Val d'Isere that week quite a few times and had mixed experiences. Sometimes poor with not all pistes open, sometimes very good although off-piste has to be treated with care as the base can be non-existent. But always enough snow to ski on. If you really wanted to book a resort as well as flights my advice would be to go high - it's not guaranteed to be better than lower resorts, but I think you stack the odds in your favour if you head to a resort high enough to have a glacier.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Specialman, my thoughts would be (in no particular order)
Val d'Isere/Tignes
Zermatt
Saas Fee
Maybe 2 Alps and ADH.
With the job I do I ski every year at this time and have to say that I have never not skied although a couple of years back I was in the 3V and faced with green hills except for the runs covered by snow cannons. My safe bet in to book VDI/Tignes.
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Specialman, I'd agree with Nickster. I've only skied in Tignes and Meribel in mid December. At Tignes I was doing a course, and although the early snow wasn't terrific that year (by no means all runs open) there was plenty to play on. At Meribel the snow was great, but that was just after a big fall - we just struck extremely lucky with a last minute 3 day break when easyJet opened flights from Gatwick to Geneva because two days before we got there there'd been nothing much at all.
But if you can save up without making a booking  I'd follow the advice to book late. There are really good deals then, and if the snow was looking a bit questionable you might be able to book onto a course with one of the specialised companies, which is the best way of making a little snow go a long way.
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Specialman, just chose an airport and book flight and make the decision as to "where" a week in advance. That early in the season property owners will bite your hand off in many resorts!
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Specialman, I've never NOT been able to ski from 3,600m down to 2,100m in December, and often all the way down to the village. ADH opened early last winter for the weekend, Lizzard went, but it didn't look that great. I always have groups at the beginning of December as it's so cheap, and even in a bad year there's always the glacier.
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Go as high as possible.
2000m is the minimum village height at that time of year.
Preferably, it should have a glacier above 3000m.
In order, I would prebook:
1. Tignes;
2. Val Thorens;
3. Val d'Isere.
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I've never been to a resort and never had decent snow (First ski trip 1989, at least 1 week per year and only in Europe). Chill out man 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Whitegold, You say this every time.  It's how high the skiing is and how much vertical rather than how high the village is that makes a difference. Val T = village 2,300m; top of skiing 3,100m; vertical drop = 800m. Us = village 1650m; top of skiing 3,568m; vertical drop = 1918m (+ a bit if you can ski the runs below the village, - a bit if you can only ski to the Cretes at 2,100m). I'm not saying everyone should come here - but look at the real picture!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, agreed, people tend to focus on village height as opposed to easy access to high altitude skiing or the amount of snowmaking equipment lower down. I personally dont like staying in VT as i have trouble sleeping at 2300 metres. in my case mottaret is only 1700 but with one 10 minute bubble car ride and i am at the top station of courchevel at 2750 or 2 bubbles and mount vallon at 2950...
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I used to go race training with the army at that time of year, we did Val Thorens, Zermatt and La Plagne and never had any problems in the early to mid 2000's.
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You know it makes sense.
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easiski, Fair point, but state Val Thorens as the limit of the skiing is a bit misleading. Highest sking in VT is 3230m and Meribel is linked and can get you down to 1400m in Meribel or 1300 in Courchevel - which is about the same vertical.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| easiski, Fair point, but state Val Thorens as the limit of the skiing is a bit misleading. Highest sking in VT is 3230m and Meribel is linked and can get you down to 1400m in Meribel or 1300 in Courchevel - which is about the same vertical. |
I alwasy think of vertical as to what you can do top to bottom without lifts. you can't do top of VT to Le Praz without many lifts. Fave vertical in courchevel is from top of saluire down to either C1550 or Le Praz. Vertival drop of 1300 metres. Not been to Le Alpes but piste maps suggests in good conditions you could have a massive run
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Poster: A snowHead
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Places in Austria often have more snow in December than the high French resorts. E.g. Obergurgl, Obertauern and Lech.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Specialman,
If it were me..... I'd be thinking of somewhere with a glacier and as it happens I am going to Tignes on the 10th Dec for 4 days on the boot camp deal.
But if I wanted to get away pre-xmas I would just be as flexible as I could be and that might mean, just commit to going and then put the money by. Closer to the time, I'd pick whereeever had the best looking conditions.
Although last season...by all accounts .....had a great start, I wouldn't bank on it from this distance.
Just tell her you are going away at that time. Or don't tell, and surprise her..
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 29-07-08 11:50; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm going away on the 13th December, and the skiing will be limited to which resort actually has any lifts open - I suspect most of our time will be spent in either Tignes or possibly Les Arcs - but alas, probably not accesible from Villaroger (where I shall be staying)...I understand many resorts are not planning to open fully until 20th December, to ensure that Christmas week is catered for - subject to an unforeseen cold snap with a couple of metres dumped across the entire Alps, of course
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Not always as easy as that, IMO. I think resorts have contracts about the local power supply and staffing levels etc and it can be that as much as anything that dictates when lifts are open. I may be wrong here so am willing to stand corrected.
That may be why many resorts closed lifts last year even though there was enough snow to carry on.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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personally I hate Val Thorens - it's full of "I've got to go to the highest resort in Europe" Brits - it's bleak wind swept and needs good coverage of snow as is fairly rocky and it has about as much atmosphere as the moon (to which it's topography emulates) IMHO........ 
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Frosty the Snowman, I stand corrected on the height then, but if there's not much snow (the 2 times I've been there the village has been the lowest available), then there's not so much up there is there? The original question was about skiing in early December, so I was thinking of the runs below VT village not being open. The gentleman in question always goes on village height!
dan100, It's a bit of a hassle to get to 3600 here - 2 x cable cars (fast) and 2 x T bars. But go to 3400 and it misses out the last T bar. From there down to the lowest point at 1290 it's a huge descent of course, but again I was thinking about early season when there might not be massive amounts of snow so I wasn't counting the runs below the village, and not even the runs down to the village really.
Guvnor, We're opening on 29th November this year - earlier than last year.
Nickster, I'm with you - hideous place, no atmosphere and no locals! That is just my opinion of course, and lots of people like it, but I prefer some character in a place.
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Nickster, easiski, I would not dream of going before in deep winter, but in April it is a nice place to ski IMHO.
Ignoring the glacier, L2A has bucket loads of skiing between 3200 and 2100.
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Frosty the Snowman, at L2A I find myself for a lot of the time only going down as far as 2600 station because there is so much piste from 2600 up to 3200
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Okay, forget about whether or not I should book, let's make a list of potential December resorts that are worth considering when it comes to me doing a serach of TOs:
Tignes/Val
LDA
ADH
Zermatt?
Chamonix?
Val Thorens (3V)
.....
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Specialman,
Tignes/Val
L2A
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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what about Soelden and Hintertux?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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What abut non-glacial resorts? Austria is pretty snowsure isn't it? Obergurgl?
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| Specialman wrote: |
| Austria is pretty snowsure isn't it? |
No more so than any other European country I'd have thought. Good years and bad years, like everywhere else.
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You know it makes sense.
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I always have the impression at equivalent altitude that austrian does better than france but some austrian resorts eg kitzbuhl.sport welt are pretty low
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| dan100 wrote: |
| I always have the impression at equivalent altitude that austrian does better than france but some austrian resorts eg kitzbuhl.sport welt are pretty low |
I suspect this is more because the terrain tends to be "softer" in Austrian resorts than French, so they don't need as much snow to be skiable.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| dan100 wrote: |
| I always have the impression at equivalent altitude that austrian does better than france but some austrian resorts eg kitzbuhl.sport welt are pretty low |
I suspect this is more because the terrain tends to be "softer" in Austrian resorts than French, so they don't need as much snow to be skiable. |
Isn't it because Austria is a bit closer to the continental interior than France, so has slightly lower average temperatures? That means that resorts like Kitzbuhel can function quite happily at 760m whereas that altitude wouldn't be a sensible proposition in France.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| dan100 wrote: |
| I always have the impression at equivalent altitude that austrian does better than france but some austrian resorts eg kitzbuhl.sport welt are pretty low |
I suspect this is more because the terrain tends to be "softer" in Austrian resorts than French, so they don't need as much snow to be skiable. |
Isn't it because Austria is a bit closer to the continental interior than France, so has slightly lower average temperatures? That means that resorts like Kitzbuhel can function quite happily at 760m whereas that altitude wouldn't be a sensible proposition in France. |
that may well have an effect as well.
But for on-piste skiing, 25cm "official" depth is plenty in most Austrian resorts, while you wouyld be hitting a lot of rocks in most French resorts (there are exceptions to both of those, of course).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| But for on-piste skiing, 25cm "official" depth is plenty in most Austrian resorts, while you wouyld be hitting a lot of rocks in most French resorts (there are exceptions to both of those, of course). |
Isn't that simply a function of altitude? For a reasonably similar latitude a high Austrian resort will have less vegetation/more rocks than a low French resort? If Austrian resorts are more typically built on low altitude pasture land they will require less snow depth to be skiable - but the same applies to low altitude French resorts doesn't it?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| dan100 wrote: |
| I always have the impression at equivalent altitude that austrian does better than france but some austrian resorts eg kitzbuhl.sport welt are pretty low |
I suspect this is more because the terrain tends to be "softer" in Austrian resorts than French, so they don't need as much snow to be skiable. |
Isn't it because Austria is a bit closer to the continental interior than France, so has slightly lower average temperatures? That means that resorts like Kitzbuhel can function quite happily at 760m whereas that altitude wouldn't be a sensible proposition in France. |
thats what I always thought
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| If Austrian resorts are more typically built on low altitude pasture land they will require less snow depth to be skiable - but the same applies to low altitude French resorts doesn't it? |
I'd assume so, but so far the only grass skiing I've done has been in France not Austria 
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How about N America- esp. if early season conditions in Europe not good?
I've skied Winter Park in mid-November & had excellent conditions. France (this summer) was expensive given the lousy exchange rate & you might find you've got more money left to spend on a second trip later in the season.
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That early in the season, I would wait till the last minute and go to the place with the best conditions (plenty of appartments/rooms available at this period). It's too much of a gamble to know now where the best conditions will be found. High altitude French resorts are rocky, need a lot of snow, and usually get most snows from western winds. Austrian low-lying resorts need much less snow, can offer fantastic conditions at this period, or no snow at all (except for artificial). Note that the high altitude resorts are often quite interior into the alps, and get much less precipitation than low lying resorts at the edge of the Alps (Eg La clusaz gets much more precipitation at the same altitude than a Tarantaise resort, In austria Lech gets much more snow than Sölden or Obergurgl). A good bet is often Obertaurn which is high, and gets a lot of precipitation (but again no guarantee).
You may also consider resorts at the southern side of the Alps (Italy or Southern French alps). Sometimes when there is no snow in the north , there is plenty in the south (like in Méribel green pastures, while in serre Chevalier 2m at the top). Again it is a pure gamble, so wait untill the snow has fallen
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Being between 500km and 900km further east than the French Alps the Austrian Alps are less exposed (generally) to the warm and moist atlantic lows that bring many of the storms over the winter. This air generally cools as it hits the mountaina and get pushed up and as it moves east into the heart of the continent. Tempratures in Salzburger land and Styria are typaically 1.8c lower than in Valias in the Western Alps. For those that reg travel to eastern europe and Russia it getting colder as you go east will come as no suprise!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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al.p, Targhee WY consistently open at Thanksgiving often with powder have skiied here first many winters, and it builds confidence which some resorts don't do early season.
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JimSearle, yes, well said. There are plenty on here that only think height, ignoring basic geography and what surface lies beneath the snow. Under severe questioning, it is common for those that diss Austria to have never been there! Early season I'd chose Austria over France any day. As for further east, I suspect that Socchi will be the new in place post 2014.
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