 Poster: A snowHead
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On a recent thread on how to ski powder, and on an older one that has just been bumped (and which I missed at the time), I've read several posts saying that:
- to initiate a turn in powder you can or should use a rotation movement
- to ski powder well you need to bounce up and down
This seems to me contrary to what I've learnt and (think that) I practise.
Re rotation movement: I think that telling powder beginners to use a rotation movement to initiate their turns is the surest way to send them flying upside down. Any decent powder won't let you do a rotation movement (unless you combine it with a sort of jump turn).
In the older thread mentioned above, Cunners seemed to explain things much better ("lean left to go left, lean right to go right" - although usually the leaning should mostly take place from the waist or from the knees down, creating angulation not whole body inclination). If the skis are allowed to form a platform together in the snow, changing their angle will lead them to turn, just as changing the angle of the skis on hardpack leads them to turn (though for different reasons). (That's why so many instructors say that technique does not differ between hardpack and powder, and why it's hard to ski pow if you can't ski the hardpack well).
Now I can see that in difficult conditions (eg skiing the trees, skiing couloirs etc) you may need to turn much faster and hence somehow create rotational movement, but beginners aren't likely to start there, and those turns are the combination of several movements, rather than the simple movements one needs in order to learn.
Now for the bouncing: surely that's an old school way to ski powder? My aim, whether using wide or short turns, is to keep my upper body as still as possible. The knees may well be doing a lot of bouncing as the legs extend into the turn, retract and extend into the next turn, but that's not what the upper body does. So there is bouncing (which can help with the rhythm of turning) but of a very different kind.
Now: I AM NOT AN INSTRUCTOR and I know that some of the people talking about rotation movements are. Moreover, while I have some experience of skiing offpiste, I'm far from an excellent skier. Therefore, I'm prepared to be proved wrong but first I'll argue my point (since it's my understanding of what good coaches such as Rob Sogard or Gordy Peifer have told me).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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heh - i bet you use those newfangled "phat" skis too
actually, I agree
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| horizon wrote: |
| Now for the bouncing: surely that's an old school way to ski powder? My aim, whether using wide or short turns, is to keep my upper body as still as possible. The knees may well be doing a lot of bouncing as the legs extend into the turn, retract and extend into the next turn, but that's not what the upper body does. So there is bouncing (which can help with the rhythm of turning) but of a very different kind. |
I agree with that, although I think for someone who is beginning to take their first few runs in powder snow the 'bouncing' advice is useful - retraction turns in powder is a pretty high order skill for someone who is more used to skiing on piste.
I don't fully agree with you regarding rotation. If you are doing slow speed turns you can use foot/leg rotation to steer the skis (just as you would on piste) although I accept this is hard work. I argued this point with a BASI Trainer last season (when I took the same view as you that rotation was impossible) and he proved me wrong by taking me into some low angle untracked powder and making me steer my turns by leg rotation - he said I had to "grind out" the turns as it took much more effort. He was right, I was wrong, as is so often the case!
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For some good video showing powder turns using a fair bit of leg rotation see this post.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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legs extend into the turn, retract and extend into the next turn
You need to be able to understand what this means
also, you need to understand that powder is not a flat slope but more like a hidden mogul field
Think in 3D
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rob@rar, 
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| For some good video showing powder turns using a fair bit of leg rotation see this post. |
That's a good start but I don't see that technique working too well in steep, bottomless powder.
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| DB wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| For some good video showing powder turns using a fair bit of leg rotation see this post. |
That's a good start but I don't see that technique working too well in steep, bottomless powder. |
I think it would work if you are travelling slowly, although it would be hard work. Travelling quicker and using the ski's shape to steer your turns would be much easier (and more fun ).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think it kind of depends how literally you take bouncing - I'm not feeling particularly coherent this morning, but daehwons puts it like I'm thinking. All skiing involves some extend/retract, and you kind of have to both unweight and angle your skis in powder anyway unless you're literally jump turning. A quiet upper body and a centered centre of mass is still the norm.
I might be agreeing with the OP here, I can't really tell  I don't think people who're saying "bounce" turns mean it like the old school technique style is what I'm getting at.
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DaveC, do you have your CSIA manual infront of you? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I think for someone who is beginning to take their first few runs in powder snow the 'bouncing' advice is useful - retraction turns in powder is a pretty high order skill for someone who is more used to skiing on piste. |
Hmmm. If you don't retract the legs, but still use the "lean the ski platform to turn" technique, you will end up bouncing when the legs come underneath you. However, that's an effect not a cause. If one tells a powder beginner to bounce, they will tend to exaggerate that bounce / resulting height change, whereas I thought that the aim should be to slowly reduce it.
| rob@rar wrote: |
| I don't fully agree with you regarding rotation. If you are doing slow speed turns you can use foot/leg rotation to steer the skis (just as you would on piste) although I accept this is hard work. I argued this point with a BASI Trainer last season (when I took the same view as you that rotation was impossible) and he proved me wrong by taking me into some low angle untracked powder and making me steer my turns by leg rotation - he said I had to "grind out" the turns as it took much more effort. He was right, I was wrong, as is so often the case! |
OK, I agree that "impossible" is an overstatement and that you CAN use foot rotation. But, again, for powder newbies, would you rather teach them how to do a turn that takes a lot more effort and is likely to result in a fall if they try too hard the rotation movement, or one that flows easily?
daehwons, I'm not sure if your post was directed at me, but we seem to have the same understanding of how the turn happens (down to practically the same words). I would not call it bouncing though - the average person will think of the shoulders and head bouncing as a result of a skier's intention to do bouncing turns, whereas the retraction turn works by just the lower body bouncing and the upper body keeping relatively still.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I think it would work if you are travelling slowly, although it would be hard work. Travelling quicker and using the ski's shape to steer your turns would be much easier (and more fun ). |
How do you ski deep powder slowly? More short turns? how do you do short turns in steep deep powder? Extend and contract with perhaps a little bit of leg steering? For me (and like Horizon I'm, no ski instructor or offpiste ski god) it's using the snow
1) to lift you up and land back down in the snow but not bounce. A bit like jumping between big cushions - the head/upperbody rises and descends (in relation to the snow surface), the legs extend and contract but you're not all over the place like tiger (of Winnie the pooh fame).
2) to provide resistance to change direction. It's not like hard snow where an edge grips and you're steering. It's more 3D like driving on deeper gravel where things are less direct but you need to hold your composure, keeping over your skis (not back seat) and being more patient with the response from the snow. Using a variable depth of snow to turn as opposed to a flat surface.
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| horizon wrote: |
| Hmmm. If you don't retract the legs, but still use the "lean the ski platform to turn" technique, you will end up bouncing when the legs come underneath you. However, that's an effect not a cause. If one tells a powder beginner to bounce, they will tend to exaggerate that bounce / resulting height change, whereas I thought that the aim should be to slowly reduce it. |
Yes, the long term aim would be to keep a quiet upper body (limited 'bounce') and have the legs doing more of the work by extending and retracting (more 'bounce'). But that's a difficult thing to achieve for a skier who is new to powder. They will be on low angle slopes, often skiing at relatively low speeds so there is not a huge amount of momentum in their turns to make the ski work for them. So I think it is reasonable advice to ask them to be a bit more dynamic from the outset, then work on maintaining a quieter upper body while the legs/skis do more of the work (once they have the confidence to go a bit quicker and steeper).
| horizon wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| I don't fully agree with you regarding rotation. If you are doing slow speed turns you can use foot/leg rotation to steer the skis (just as you would on piste) although I accept this is hard work. I argued this point with a BASI Trainer last season (when I took the same view as you that rotation was impossible) and he proved me wrong by taking me into some low angle untracked powder and making me steer my turns by leg rotation - he said I had to "grind out" the turns as it took much more effort. He was right, I was wrong, as is so often the case! |
OK, I agree that "impossible" is an overstatement and that you CAN use foot rotation. But, again, for powder newbies, would you rather teach them how to do a turn that takes a lot more effort and is likely to result in a fall if they try too hard the rotation movement, or one that flows easily? |
I think the first priority is to get them into powder and get some mileage under their feet. If the only way to do that is slow speed turns on low angle terrain then I can't see what the problem is with having a fair amount of leg rotation to help them steer. In time they can progress to higher speed turns where they use pressure rather than rotation to manage the shape of the turn. I can remember clearly the most impressive bit of skiing I've ever seen when a couple of pisteurs skied down a ridge in Courchevel so they could lob some charges off to clear the avy risk. They steered and stemmed their way down just like a beginner on a nursery slope, except that they were on a treacherous, exposed ridge. It's good to have a 'banker' turn in your arsenal, which from time to time will be a steered/rotated turn in powder.
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You know it makes sense.
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| DB wrote: |
| How do you ski deep powder slowly? More short turns? how do you do short turns in steep deep powder? |
I agree with you, but I thought we were talking about advice you can give skiers who are new to skiing powder?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| How do you ski deep powder slowly? More short turns? how do you do short turns in steep deep powder? |
I agree with you, but I thought we were talking about advice you can give skiers who are new to skiing powder? |
You did say .....
| rob@rar wrote: |
| I think it would work if you are travelling slowly, although it would be hard work. |
Was trying to create an understanding that would not just get people down the gentle slopes with a little bit of powder but would set them up for the more challenging slopes/depths later.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 1-08-08 13:07; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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DB, sorry, not quite following your point. If you are saying it is impossible to ski powder (even deep and steep) with a lot of leg rotation as the main way of steering then I'm disagreeing. I think it is possible, albeit very hard work, and I gave an example a couple of posts back of some extraordinary skiing by the pisteurs doing just that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar,
I'm running out of time as I have to start packing for a MTBing holiday next week (so this may be my last post in the next 7 days).
I'll try and be more concise ....
I'm not saying it is impossible to ski using the techniques you have mentioned. I'm trying to give people an understanding of what might make powder easier to ski regardless of the terrain / powder depth. For learners powder can often be hard work, talking about hard techniques or safety techiques that still work seems futile. Letting learners use a lot of leg rotation could instill bad habits that will literally trip them up later.
I've seen pro skiers ski (on piste) on one leg while wiggling the other in the air but that doesn't mean it should be taught that way to a learner.
I doubt anyone is going to learn powder skkiing over the internet though - there's another thread where contact details of specific "powder" trainers have been given. Maybe someone can post the lionk here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| DB wrote: |
| I'm not saying it is impossible to ski using the techniques you have mentioned. I'm trying to give people an understanding of what might make powder easier to ski regardless of the terrain / powder depth. For learners powder can often be hard work, talking about hard techniques or safety techiques that still work seems futile. Letting learners use a lot of leg rotation could instill bad habits that will literally trip them up later. |
In which case we agree. I'm simply observing that for lots of skiers who are new to powder asking them to demonstrate good powder technique from day 1 is asking too much, because of confidence and technique reasons. So they will start on relatively gentle terrain, skiing at relatively slower speeds and therefore will probably have a higher component of leg rotation when they steer their turns (but should avoid upper body rotation at all costs). The trick is to make sure that they progress to more advanced technique and more demanding terrain as soon as they are able.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar,
I'm not sure we do agree. IMHO the skier should be taught how to ski the gentle powder slopes with ease and then move on. Not be given something that gets them down but is a lot more work. IMHO - in powder you use the powder to steer the skis not the legs to try and turn in the powder. The later leaves you face up or face down.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bouncing is ok if it releases the ski somewhat, but leaning is not if you end up with too much weight on the one ski. You might want the weight to pass from the left hand side to the right hand side which will set the skis on a different path. A pole plant at this point might be enough to steer the skis one way and another. We are talking about a gentle slope here with zags as opposed to big sweeping across the fall-line turns.
I didn't comment on the video at the time as it isn't where you want to be going...sorry... turn-wise. For that gradient, you want to going straighter. All the turns across the slope just store up problems when the snow is trickier/heavier. You can get confidence that that turn will work in certain type of snow...and that is ok...but large s's aren't what you want to achieve eventually..IMV It is all relative to the steepness though...
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There's "powder", "powder" and "powder". The blend of movements and specific technique required is going to change depending on the quality of the snow.
With regard to rotary movements, I'd suggest that many 'beginner' powder skiers will struggle to make arcs on piste without some active rotation - so for sure they will try to rotate their ski's in powder.
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| DB wrote: |
rob@rar,
I'm not sure we do agree. |
OK, fair point, we'll have to disagree 
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* Caution * have only skimmed this thread so just throwing a few thoughts on the OP.
Lean left to go left etc will work fine in some snows on some gradients, but as slopes steepen or in certain tyoes of snow you'll end up going helluva fast in places/on slopes you don't want to go helluva fast on.
Active rotary steering is definitely required and definitely useful in adding speed control to the whole mixture. One just has to bear in mind that a certain amunt of forward momentum is required to make the rotary steering easier.
ops
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| JT wrote: |
| I didn't comment on the video at the time as it isn't where you want to be going...sorry... turn-wise. For that gradient, you want to going straighter. All the turns across the slope just store up problems when the snow is trickier/heavier. You can get confidence that that turn will work in certain type of snow...and that is ok...but large s's aren't what you want to achieve eventually..IMV It is all relative to the steepness though... |
FWIW the gradient was (IMV) steeper than it looks on the video... Or it may not be to those of you used to seeing skiing video, the film just looked a lot flatter to me than it actually was
As Rob's guinea-pig here, I take your point but your point is way ahead of where I was/am. The objective last season was to find enough balance just to stay on my feet and work out how to turn *at all*, preferably in some sort of control. Until that is achieved, any discussion of "technique" is rather academic. Just so's you know that what little I did achieve in the film (and I am well aware it wasn't much) was actually a big achievement for me personally with much greater progress than I had expected by the end of the season Now I can start learning how to ski powder
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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offpisteskiing, I agree (you should see me jumping up and down like a jack in the box to rotate my skis in the air, when I can't make things work otherwise).
The threads in question were aimed at powder novices, though. I still can't see why teaching them the difficult method first is better.
This is interesting - you seem to say that it's a skill needed in more advanced offpiste skiing, which I agree with and I should have made clearer in my initial post, but others seems to see it as a transition to powder technique.
kitenski, you're right. But I'm reviewing some work done by colleagues today and I can use these breaks to clear my brain between different clients / reports etc. And it seems that some people find these discussions useful when they do get on the hill.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| horizon wrote: |
The threads in question were aimed at powder novices, though. I still can't see why teaching them the difficult method first is better.
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Is it the more difficult method? A bit more physically demanding perhaps, but novices will be skiing at slower speeds than more experienced powder skiers, and will be more used to turning on-piste by using some element of rotation than the kind of retraction turn which you, as a very experienced off-piste skier, will prefer to use. My experience is that I used some proportion of leg rotation by instinct, and it was only when I had developed greater confidence and feeling for the snow that I could experiment with more advanced technique and higher speeds.
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eng_ch,
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Now I can start learning how to ski powder
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You were skiing powder, the proof is in the video!! But it is the same as anything, learning something new takes time, effort and lots of practice! Did you learn to ski on piste as soon as the skis were on you feet? Or did you play around getting your balance? And that was on something where you can feel the support underneath you.
On powder, the deeper it is the more akin to floating it is and you don't always have any 'solid ground' type feeling under you feet. You have to make more small movements just to stay in balance, which is where the practice comes in, learning to feel what the snow is making you do and what you have to do to counteract it.
If you are tense and nervous skiing powder, and think too much about turning, you won't be thinking about balance and most likely fall!! There is no set technique to skiing powder, it uses the same steering elements as turning anywhere else, just with the edging bit taken out. In all off piste turns there will be a pressure and rotation somewhere. Of course there are limits to how much rotation and pressure you can use, but thats the fun of it, how far can you push it before you end up with a face full of snow??
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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JT, hehe. I wasn't actually disagreeing with you and I agree with freestyleandy too - there's a bit of a way to go and an awful lot of experience to be gained. This season has been working out how to walk having effected all previous locomotion on all fours (actually, literally in powder so far!); I've hung onto (metaphorical) tables and those vids I consider the first unaided successful walk across the room. Some people take to powder like a duck to water - I, and it seems quite a few others, don't/haven't. But it's only the start and now I can stay on my feet and turn, the rest will surely follow in due course as learn to ski it instead of survive it. Next season's a new season - bring it on, say I!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Fom my experience, most people have trouble in deep snow because they have poor technique on the piste involving shoulder/hip rotation. You can get away with this on piste, but not in deeper snow. It causes the skis to stop dead and the skier to continue to move! First make sure your piste technique is correct (ish) and then ski not too deep snow (ankle-boot depth for example) with exactly the same technique as you use on the piste. Most European conditions do not exclude turning on the outside ski - we simply don't often get deep enough snow for it to be a problem, particularly in the places where a novice is likely to be trying it out. It may be possible to rotate your feet, but shoulder rotation is a recipe for a cold shower.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, Spot on even from the basics up to many people never get there stance right and can not figure out why they have so much trouble in powder, I think when people say bouncing they are reffering to the up and down movment that is essentila for powder sking.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Ordhan, yes that's what I meant
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