Return of the foward stance

A snowHead

Been riding years and years and years. The last 4 I had a setup of setup 15/-9. Liked it - was doing ok.

Just bought a new board which was a bit wider than my prev (not sold as a midwide but pretty much). Im shortish and have 9 feet.

My riding was terrable. Competely lacked grip. Short heal turn - slow toe turn.

Was chatting to a instructor (ex local bordercorss champ no doubt). He said it was a combo of duck stance/ board width and height not allowing me to get the propper leverage/angleation or something.

Remedy.
1) Get a narrower board.
2) Get raiser plates - effectively making me taller.
3) Change angles to foward stance, turn my body foward.
4) Do all three above.

Next day I did third option (21/9) and it instantly made a heck of a difference. Became somekind of carving weirdo. Even was able to do fast controlled turnes on hard/icy conditions. My pow was better, crud was better, my switch was better, even landings were smoother (which is definately not ment to be the case).

Anyone else experience this?

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Lizzard,

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Lizzard, that was quite funny Laughing

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Well at least you read it.

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winni, sorry, I am hopeless with set up, I have no idea what I ride, only that it is slightly duck. More out on the front foot and slightly straighter on the back. I really should make note,

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

winni, forward stance is pretty useless if you ride switch.

But if it works for you do it.

me i'm happy ducked, it stops my knees folding in and it keeps me able to ride switch easier and do the stuff i love doing!

After all it is free

Winni - I have been changing my stance all season, going from extremely duck to extremely forward biased, what I found is that a forward stance sorted out my body position and helped me know what it was like to get my weight forward. It is great for carving. I have since gone back to duck stance because I to like the flexibility to ride switch, but I found that I still had the ability to get my weight forward - previously I was washing out my heel turns as a result of not enough front foot pressure but now I carve it up like a goog 'un. Even sorted me out on narrow flat cat tracks

winni, I've always ridden forwards it was +15/+12 but last week I changed to +15/+6 I was going to change straight back but kept forgetting in the evenings and now I'm used to that. Whatever works for you's going to be the best.

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Try jumping off the seat of a chair and see how your feet are positioned. Most likely you will land with about 25-30 degrees between your 2 feet. It's your hip sockets that have this angle built into them, so its natural that the most duck stances have around 25-30 degrees between the front and rear binding.
Extreme forward angles are only necessary when you have to have extreme angles ie you own a skinny race or carving board. A forward stance on a normal freeride symetrical board is un-natural. More balanced duck stance means better balanced edge pressure. Asymetrical boards were designed to address the edge pressure issues of a forward stance.
Why look to the past... A time when snowboards were just oversized skis that didn't have a sidecut.
Plus its a gotta be a joke that someone said their switch riding was better with a forward stance.

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3snowboards, as said above I have been playing around with my set-up, and also made the effort to have a good look at other boarders set ups and I was amazed to see that the majority of boarders (in Verbier anyway) had a forward stance. It seems suited to boarding hard pack piste, perhaps due to it being a good stance for carving. You can ride switch with a forward stance but i doubt it would improve most peoples swith riding.

snow reports

in the shop I see every angle known to man, what the hell are some people thinking?
I've seen in January - +3 +3, 0 0, +15 -21, +30 +30
Actually a lot of people have a bigger angle at the back than the front like +9 +15, weirdos. Makes no sense to me. Anyone who comes to me for a board to rent leaves with +18 -3, or -6 depending if i'm in a jibby mood.

You know it makes sense.

I'm still low intermediate when it comes to boarding, am still playing around with stance settings. Tried +9 -9 for a day recently, it made drag-lifts a frigging nightmare. I like to ride switch tho so will def stick with some sort of duck, but with front foot more + I think. Quack, quack. Smile

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Here is the thing I don't understand.

According to the instructor, duck is fundamentally flawed when it comes to holding a 'solid', 'solid' edge. Example is the heal edge - the only way to angle the board enough on a red/black slope is to strighten your legs. Then when you do it becomes almost impossible to apply preasure to the edge. This is not the case wth a foward stance.

I now agree he is right but I do see some amazing riders (live and pros on video) that ride duck/very duck. How do they do that?

A snowHead

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the ice perv wrote:
I'm still low intermediate when it comes to boarding, am still playing around with stance settings. Tried +9 -9 for a day recently, it made drag-lifts a frigging nightmare. I like to ride switch tho so will def stick with some sort of duck, but with front foot more + I think. Quack, quack.

Ow! only +9? that must make scooting a bit sore, or maybe you're teaching that bad knee a lesson!

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Yeah, it was a crap experiment that won't be repeated!
Roughly, what is the angle one should have between bindings for a duck stance? I've heard everything from 21 to over 30 degrees! Yes, I know everyone is different; yes I know I should play around til I get comfy; but was wondering what a good starting point would be......?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

as a starting point, 25 to 30 degrees. I tried +15 / -15 but found that it was a real struggle to keep my back knee pointing backwards in line with the foot, so now I am +14 / -12 which feels better.

It does mean that switch is ever so slightly different from forward, but most riding is forwards and switch riding tends to be a bit slower or there is less call for aggressive carving (or that's the case for me, anyway)

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I ride duck at +24 and -12 which I find quite comfortable, I started riding at +17 and 0 but as I wanted to learn switch I went minus on the back leg.
I first set it up at +21 and -9 but felt I'd like to try a bit more. Your forward direction will always have more of an angle on it, I like to blast down the piste as well as general fun (which is the point isn't it!?) so like my leading leg high+.
For someone relatively new to boarding I wouldn't ride with less than +15 on your front leg for comfort. I was given a board by an 'instructor' years ago set up i think probably +9, maybe less, and i found it painful when scooting and drag lifts, it was only when I mentioned the pain to someone they said to increase the angle to +15! what a difference!

Someone wrote about switch with back leg + which I am sure in switch your knee would not thank you for!

Zillertal beckons on Friday..sweet!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I started out using forward stances - used to ride old Buton assymetric (sp) boards. Missed out on about 7 years of boarding due to kids and cash ( lack of).
Read somewhere about the knee benefits of duck stance - my knees used to ache from probably twisting too much.
Picked a stance that when I bent my knees my knees would bend in such away that when I looked down my knees would block out my feet so that the angles of my ankles and knees would be in one plane. It is a bit awkward to explain. If you stand up and try your feet in different positions it is easier to understand.

So I ended up with +12 and -12 - no knee problems and I feel I have improved my riding.
My son who is 11 has just started has the same stance and has found it ok.

After all it is free

Last week on the snow (Jan this year), went +15/-9, then +15/-12, then +24/+3 and liked it. I think I need to complete a 'weight forward' epiphany like rayscoops:

Shallimus, +24, -6 a few weeks ago Very Happy

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You tried that, rayscoops?

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Shallimus, yes, i think i am happy anywhere between +21/24, -9/-6, really, to be honest i have tried so many I seem ok with any stance Laughing

except riding switch with a forward biased rear foot, now that is a bit strange for me

snow reports

re keeping a heel edge on over crud or bumps.. as i was learning i alwys used to prefer riding a toe edge over the rubbish. you have your hips knees and ankles/feet to a lesser extent to absorb the bumps,, i found as i got better and faster i preferred the heel edge and can get a much better edge in at speed on the rough stuff .. on the first courdrouy run of the morning though nothing beats a big toe edge carve with your trailing hand picking some snow up to throw at your sking mates..

You know it makes sense.

+21/-12 now I think but have been as much as +24/-15.

Last time I rode my alpine board it was something like +45/+40 to fit my ski boots Shocked

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I used to work in a snowboard shop. I also am a part owner of a high-performance snowboard company. I've been snowboarding since 1978, I was the first Sims and Winterstick sales representative on the East Coast. I have taught snowboarding, and coached snowboard racing at Stratton Mountain. In the 1980's I recognized that there was not enough support for heelside turns and so I took 2 pairs of soccer shinguards- shoe gooed them together and bolted them with skateboard hardware to the back of the base plate... AFAIK that was the first highback.

I have helped design snowboards, specify side cut radii, flex patterns, material choice, as well as serving as the "rider liaison" racing alongside our teammates in events like the U.S. Open. In the beginning of snowboarding, I switched to hard boots as soon as possible (1983). In order to do this I became an importer and would snowboard on the same gear that Tom Sims would ride for that season KOFLACH VALLUGA 400 LITES. For a long time soft boot bindings were not designed well. In the very beginning there were extremely limiting stance width and positions. Because of this many snowboarders just learn to ride in an incorrect stance that was not correct for their personal anatomy. As a result snowboard schools adapted their programs to teach people to snowboard that were set up with stances that were not optimized for the snowboarder. Terje does not ride 0, 0 and his forward stance seems to work well for him riding switch.. I think he qualified for the Mt. Baker banked slalom one year...riding..gulp switch..with a forward stance.. Terje is one of the most intelligent snowboarders the sport has ever seen. I am sure he spent a huge amount of time getting his stance right. After all would a long haul trucker spend 13 hours behind the wheel each day with his seat adjusted wrong? So why should a pro snowboarder or any snowboarder ride adjusted wrong?

I was the manager of a snowboard shop in Boston, typically we have East Coast hard pack snow sometimes frozen granular and on occasions it very was a hard compressed type of snow that we refer to as "chalk". This chalk snow is extremely grippy but ONLY if you can set a solid edge. It was extremely hard to set a good edge in that kind of snow. Having a hard boot setup with plate bindings in Alpine race board set up would help. If your stance was optimized you had a much better chance of setting an edge.

The soft boot bindings, and softwood snowboards, and soft boots at the time were extremely limiting. In the late 1980s in this gear began to evolve. But back then we would use an entire roll of duct tape to try to get enough support from our gear. Often those of us with access to things like windsurfing sail fiberglass battens would take those and incorporate them into improving the flex patterns of our soft boots. We literally had to cut ourselves out of our boots at the end of today. people thought we were crazy- but we rode a lot better than everyone else.

Thankfully, those days are gone. I recently purchased some Burton Andy Warhol soft boots. They are extremely comfortable and warm -- and they have good support an excellent flex pattern for soft boot carving. They are not too stiff- as some soft boots are with terrible flex patterns.

As a manager of a snowboard shop, in the 1990s, I would often talk to my customers and ask them what kind of snowboarding did they expect to do... "how much of the time would be spent in the park?" And how much of their time would be spent just getting down the hill.

Most of my customers just wanted to bomb the hills. A few said that they would hit the half pipe, but at the end of the season I would ask them how much time they spent in the half pipe as a percentage of the total amount of time they spent snowboarding. Most of them said that they spent less than 5% of the time in a park, and less than 1% of the time going backwards.

This advice is not for someone who hikes the pipe all day long -- or likes to do urban snowboarding. For that, a skate stance is perfectly appropriate. Also this advice does not apply to people who do not want to spend time disassembling and optimizing their bindings -- perhaps buying new bindings that are better suited for them -- or buying a new snowboard if what they have is inappropriate.

I used to take time with my customers, perfectly dialing in their stance, making sure that the snowboard they bought was exactly the correct width for their foot size and personal flexibility -- and making sure that the flex pattern worked well for them.

As a buyer of the shop I refused to buy certain brands and certain models of snowboards that lacked basic abilities in all aspects of snowboarding. I hated "lunch trays with baseless bindings". Because the people who bought them looked terrible outside of the park and struggled on icy conditions.

The problem was that the store owner would get very upset when I was spending 45 minutes with one customer, while two or three other customers were waiting. After a few months of this he insisted that every snowboarders bindings be set to zero zero and that they should be sent out the door as soon as their credit card was processed. I found a way to get around this, as I would tell people if they wanted to come back and I was not busy I would set up their board for them at a later date- I told them to bring the shop a pizza so the store owner couldn't pressure the to leave if they brought food...it worked...

To the owner this was appealing, because a second visit into the store probably meant they would purchase something new. I also forced the store owner to offer free tunes for the first season that were unlimited if they bought a complete set up (which was great because I could put together a really decent set up if I did not have to deal with legacy garbage gear) . As a result my customers were always riding a snowboard that was perfectly in tune and did not change from week to week. Those customers who took advantage of this free service progressed at a rate of 4-5 times as fast as the riders who did not take advantage of the tuning service. Because the only variable that was changing was the snow condition.

Anyhow, I have certain beliefs about snowboarding. They do not pertain to the masses. Most people will not take the time to set up their snowboard properly, they may ride a borrowed snowboard that is too large, too wide, or too stiff for them. Most of the people who will suffer from this are women. They will meet instructors on the snow who are taught to teach their students to ride like a duck. Why? Because a duck footed stance even if selected with the wrong stance width, or wrong angles, or on a board of low quality will still allow a snowboarder to turn left and right within one lesson. It also frees the instructor from having to wrench a snowboard on the slopes to adjust the binding for the snowboarder. A good instructor might make a comment to the snowboarder student afterwards like, "hey your 28 inch stance with looks a little wide since you are only 4 foot six" but the reality is almost no snowboard instructors know how to properly dial a snowboarder into the correct snowboard stance for their personal anatomy. They just go with a range for the person's height and take a guess.

An angled stance if fitted poorly -- will have many problems. The snowboarder can experience knee pain, pain in the hip, and stress on the ankles if they are not set up properly. There is a very small sweet spot which exists for angled stances on soft boot snowboards. On hard boot setups -- if the rider is set up inappropriately, they still have a chance to exert pressure on the edge to the snow because of the increased leverage power of the hard boot and hard plate binding.

With a soft booth set up it is absolutely critical that the feet be positioned properly on the snowboard. Because of the reduced leverage you have to make sure it is exact. But when you dial it in and nail it- riding becomes almost magically effortless.

That being said, with an exact stance, you certainly can exert a tremendous amount of force through your boots and a soft boot binding to the edge of the snowboard. You will also have a much greater degree front to back control of your balance (All turning speed sports need this) . You will also have the ability to edge much harder. It is also my belief that your ability to ride in powder is not compromised (because your increase in fore and aft weight transfer more than outweighs the tiny loss of ankle articulation- mind you you want to keep under 50 degrees for sure with soft boots! or you lose too much ankle articulation). You will be able to ride faster with far more stability. But all this is dependent on being set up properly.

There are some binding systems which will not allow for a lot of edging. One big mistake made currently in the snowboard industry is to produce snowboards that have too much side cut radius for their running length. As a result the intended outcome is that the snowboard will turn very sharply for a small amount of tilt. The sacrifices high-speed stability, and the ability to carve aggressively in hard packed snow conditions. It also results in the board slowing down tremendously for each turn.

So your snowboard goes slower. booooooorinnnnnnggggg..

All this is because snowboard companies, snowboard instructors, and the snowboarders themselves don't want to spend the time or the money to make sure that each person is optimized -- not just optimize for their snowboard, but the snowboard purchase is optimized for the person. It makes no sense to put a woman with size 5 feet on a 30 cm wide at the waist snowboard. It also doesn't make any sense to put someone who has size 14 feet on a snowboard that is only 18 cm wide at the waist.

But as a former instructor you see people showing up all the time on inappropriate setups. In that case I teach duck footed stance. I autopilot my teaching....

Further up in this thread I saw that some people are riding with more angle in the rear foot than their front. This definitely indicates to me that they are on a board that is too wide for their feet.

You know, it's really silly, you might own a snowboard for 3-5 years -- you may be really excited about snowboarding, it might even be the highlight of your year/life -- something you look forward to every year. You spend a lot of time selecting your resort, choosing the time to go snowboarding, picking the right rental car, buying a jacket or rather searching for a jacket endlessly that looks good, spending time creating the perfect snowboard iPod playlist. But then when it comes time to figuring out what position will optimize your ability to actually snowboard. You might only spend 1-2 minutes determining your stance.

That's just silly.- ------.but it happens allllllll the timmmmmmme.

So what do you get if your snowboard stance is optimized? Well, first off, you don't end up with a lot of joint soreness at the end of the day. You also work/involve more muscle groups. So the effort is shared amongst more muscle groups can you don't have that feeling that the muscle in the front of your leg, the anterior tibialis is full of lactic acid and wants to explode. You also will not need to have your binding straps cranked down to the max to allow you to turn properly. So the top of your foot is not experiencing so much binding crush.

If set up properly at full speed you can carve a unbroken circle on edge the entire way around. on soft boots... I can do it on a split tail powder board. Toeside and heelside equally well... and I do not favor either turn.

A picture is worth a thousand words.. willy whit posted some photos of softboot carving. There is no "f'ing" way you can carve heelside like that Duck footed at anywhere near that speed. biomechanically... it just doesn't work. It's not me...I'm certainly no athlete... I am just set up right- and I let the speed and board do just about everything for me naturally. I just get in the right body position to allow that to happen- and pilot the board instead of muscle it.

My angles- over 40 on front foot..and a few degree less on the rear (no I am not going to tell you... because it is different for everyone) . There is a way to figure out if your stance is right..without even riding on the snow- it can be done on carpet. I've even dialed in people using video conferenceing through internet chat like skype and ichat..It is not MAGIC... it is PATIENCE... because it takes a while...... (How "unamerican"... no instant gratification??????) But there is a system with definite visual feedback that lets you know when a person is adjusted right. I look specifically to where the center of mass crosses over the edge in relation to body position.... pretty simple if you know what cues to spot.

Personally, I am a little bored of doing it.. I always tell people to pass on the knowledge to others... but they rarely do... it's like they forget the process as soon as it is done......I think that is sorta selfish...and leaves me feeling disappointed... like a school teacher who realizes at the end of the semester that his students will never help teach others...because they never bothered to learn how they were taught- they just got through the tests.

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=19910&page=5

A snowHead

BTW I am doing those carves on a powder board with two strap bindings and softboots...and the boots in that photo were shot- I ride far better and more laid over and carve deeper now with my new boots. its all in the gear and set up. The rest is just attitude (the right amount of aggression and relaxation) and managing the forces properly to work for you.

1. All the snow wants to see is a perfectly curved edge with the weight in the right place. (so give the snow what it wants)

2. All the board wants to see are the forces through the bindings throughout the turn that allow that to happen. (So set yourself up so your muscles and gear can create that edge shape the snow wants to see- and change that shape on the fly as needed)

3. All the rider wants to see- and feel- is the board flex, set up, and momentum working for him- not against him. (You can monitor things a lot easier if you can see straight down the hill and if it doesn't take tons of strength to bend the board-which is exhausting to do riding duck- and hard on your knees laterally)

4. All the girls want to see is you ripping arcs in pow and groomed snow. To Air is human- which is a lot easier if you have speed.... (for some stupid reason- women assume if you are good in one thing that you must be great in all things...- but then again... I have a certain EXTREMELY STRONG belief about female gymnasts.... and there is not much you could do to convince me otherwise...and really...they all can't be that good...can they????? Just an Olympic thought....

A snowHead

the beginners/duck thing makes a lot of sense. If you put your feet into a + + without a board strapped to you (+21/+12 for example) or something try and rock from side to side like edge to edge, it's hard innit, put them in a duck stance and it's easier.

You already said it but your post above is geared towards free ride carve monkeys, people who board like skiers I call them Smile

I'm always gonna go for duck and if the bindings allow get the high back rotation sorted out, happy days Very Happy

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

stab, the pistes can be so busy coming of a lift I need my duck stance just to nip through the crowds! Laughing

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Now, I start reading this thread and I am wondering "how come all those people have "last week/day/month" tried all those different set-ups?? Have I been in a time warp while holidaying in the south of France and the season is now in full flow?"

Then I realised the thread was started inthe winter! Laughing

My first experience of snowboard: in 1994/95, with my ski boots (yes....ski boots..) and rigid bindings... Only one day but my body still sore from it!
Big break then second experience last year: Hire twin tip board with forward stance. A good thing as after the first day and a half and a very sore right leg, I realised that despite all other sports and tests done, my left leg did not want to be at the front. Once the set-up was inverted it weas all good but I did feel slightly awkward in the forward stance.
This year: bought my own (cheap) gear. And when setting it all up initially, I stood in it on my carpet and try to define what was a "comfortable" stance for me (partly using Masque's guide). I ended up with a -3/+15 set-up...Once on the snow, the front edge of my front foot was getting a bit sore so I thought I might need mopre angle there (as if the foot was trying to turn forward) so changed to -3/+21.... I hated that, my front leg was reall uncomfortable and trying to turn in all the time. So went for a -3/+18 set-up...much better but I still don't know which of 15 or 18 is my prefered front angle..
Hopefully will find out this coming season..

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I plan on testing the burton EST to destruction this winter, I think it could be the answer to my problems, I can never get the bindings far enough apart, of course if it is the answer then I shall need not only a new board but the bindings to go with it Smile

Actually, just thinking, maybe the problem is my boards are too short for my height and that's why I'm never wide enough. Ah well, I shan't be going longer that's for sure, I'll end up buying snow shoes and being a free ride monkey if I do that I'm sure.

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Mr Gilmour, not met, but................................

Nice to see someone else riding angles that most people say aren't pukka. While I've not the breadth of experience as you, or the sheer board time, I agree with a lot you say.........

I nearly gave up learning some years back (about twelve, I think), almost chucked the whole shooting match away, and went back to skis. Stonewalled. No progression.

I took three days just swapping angles to see what suited ME. Having gone through most of the permutations I settled on +30/+15, maximum spread, rear binding set heel edge back one click. The progression came. It just suits me better than anything else with what I do.

So my advice is leave the "standard", "proven" settings to the skiers. Experiment. Broaden your mind a little.

John.

Help!!

Return of the foward stance

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