 Poster: A snowHead
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Most of us show a decided asymmetry in how we use our bodies, right handed, left footed etc.
So why do we need to make symmetrical turns?
What's the point?
Is it rhythm? I think rhythm is possible without lateral symmetry.
Is it ease of learning? If so shouldn't we distinguish between propriocentric symmetry (the turn that feels the same to either side from the inside of the body) and apparent symmetry as in powder 8s?
Is symmetry a liability because we're so caught up in it that we can't adapt to slope changes, trees, moguls, rocks, pow stashes, rocks?
Are the skiers you hold up as models of "good" necessarily symmetrical?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My turns to the right (on my weaker left leg) are noticeable better than my turns to the right (on my dominant right leg). I'd like to be more symmetrical but can't seem to get there!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| My turns to the right (on my weaker left leg) are noticeable better than my turns to the right (on my dominant right leg). I'd like to be more symmetrical but can't seem to get there! |
I used to have a weaker side before I started playing around with boot alignment.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I'd like to be more symmetrical but can't seem to get there! |
Your body isn't symmetrical.
Never mind how they look, do the turns feel symmetrical? If not, why not?
If they do, you are then working on building a turn that feels different to left side than to right.
Which is part of my point.
If we absolutely have to have symmetry, why not hold propriocentric symmetry as better than observer-viewed symmetry?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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From the double fall line thread:
| eng_ch wrote: |
| but if I want to go where I want to go on a double fall-line, I only ever turn in one direction and otherwise use the fall-line, so I go down then round then down then round, using judicious quantities of down & round for direction and round for speed control. Why would you want to do full turns to both left and right if you're trying to go in e.g. a mostly left direction? |
symmetry is so ingrained in us that we actually wind up asking this question. Except that observer-viewed symmetry is taught, as witness the posts above. So the internal feel of symmetry is what is ingrained.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 2-07-08 21:35; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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is this philosophy? Or technique? either way you've lost me both ways, symmetrically.
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David Murdoch, both. 3 bumps left 1 big one right: is this a good bump skier?
Put another way:
It seems intuitively obvious that "feel" symmetry can accelerate the learning curve during basic motion aquisition.
At what stage should we acquire observer-viewed symmetry as a goal, and is it possible that some learners acquire it as a goal too early in their career? Is it possible that the RR tracks ideal has a symmetry to it that is just as deadly to learners as tip lead?
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comprex, too tricky for a good answer at this time of night...but...
I suppose it depends on how different propriocentric and externally apparent symmetry are? If massively different that might cause problems at higher levels. So yes, good question, when to introduce it?
Maybe at the point where someone says "I turn so much better to the left/right why is that"? That then beggars the question - by teaching deliberte observed symmetry do you build in assymetric motion that becomes a problem later?
That may not apply to everyone.
Personally, I think externally-apparent/aesthetic symmetry is important. Just my thoughts though.
On the bumps skiing thing, well why not (unless you're competing) - a good bumps skier should be able to ski any line at speed IMO. So three left-ish one big rightish, who cares?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hmmmm,,, I just answered Eng_ch in the other thread. Here's what I wrote.
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eng_ch, I see where you're coming from. Depending on how much direction change each turn has, one turn is fighting the falline, and the next is using it. Yep, and there lies the challenge for those new to it. Two completely different sensations and techniques for each alternate turn. 90 turns would be linked half circles. This tactic provides more speed control, regardless of the direction (in relation to the falline) those linked turns take you. They also allow you to experience and practice the full cycle of each turn (with the falline, and against it) more than say 45 degree turns (linked 1/4 circles. Both good outcomes for someone in the raw learning process.
But what ever turn shape is chosen, if you don't make the same amount of direction change for your left and right turns, your overall line of travel will be an arc, not a straight line. Eventually that arc would take you uphill and bring you to a stop,,, or arc you though the existing falline and have you skiing against it in the opposite direction. |
I'm not sure if you're talking about turn shape symmetry, or technique symmetry. The above post was written from the perspective of turn shape symmetry. Nothing wrong with it, in fact fun to do and useful to practice. With it you can weave your overall line of travel back and forth across the slope.
From the technical side,,, once you get the skills down pat, I would think varying the technique for alternating turns (say inclinate on your left turns, and angulate on your right turns. Or carve the left and steer the right) would be a valuable exercise for developing the ability to quickly move in and out of different techniques of skiing.
Good topic, Comprex.
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| Quote: |
Symmetry: what good is it?
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Because you want to go straight after all.
You take one look down the slope and head for it. If you're not symetric, you end up on the side of the trail, or way left (or right) of your intended destination.
I just finished a swim escort on kayak. The swimmer I was escorting keep drifting to the right. Because she breath on the right, so her right hand stroke was shorter than her left, hence the drift to the right. If I was not there, she would have ended up in New Jersey instead of the finish line!
So a skier who's better at turning right would end up on the left side of the trail after a few turns. Every beginer can tell you that! How many times you see beginers "stuck" on one side of the trail not able to turn around because that's their "weak side"?
Is it important technically? I don't know. But I know it's important for practical purpose.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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FastMan, in this post you referred to an asymmetric tactic, which Bode Miller had talked about using in a GS at Solden.
http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.php?p=261226&postcount=14
Unfortunately the original Ski Racing interview is no longer on their website.
I agree that intentional asymmetry would be a beneficial drill.
Not sure if ingrained, default asymmetry is helpful though...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I totally agree, Martin. My suggestion was one that should be saved for later on in skill development process. If it's a default asymmetry then it's indicative that something is going on. Unaddressed biomechanical issue? A motor development thing? Perhaps, as abc suggests, just a skill level that highlights any particular innate weak links? The latter is often a minor thing that can be very well overcome through normal skill development. In Bode's case it was a biomechanical thing that he could easily mask in freeskiing, but choose to find a way to exploit to his benefit on the race course.
Best I can say to the learning skiers is,,, get a good boot fitting by someone who knows what he's doing, to eliminate the biomechanical challenges as best one can,,, then build the skills to compensate and overcome any individual motor imbalance issues. Those motor issues can actually be improved in everyday life through the training done in skiing and other sports. Little Tiger is glaring proof of that. At **** years of age, she just in the past year learned to be able to consistently catch a ball, and properly ride a bicycle. She attributes much of it to the extensive training she's done in skiing, surfing and fencing. (for those unaware, proprioception loss at birth is the professional speculation)
Then, when you get all that sorted, and the skills start to get honed,,, come ski with me and I'll show you my drills. 
What do you think, Martin. Are we close to being on the same page?
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You know it makes sense.
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I am lucky in that I have knackered hip on the right, and a knackered knee on the left. It helps maintain the symmetry 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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A more recent example of asymmetry than Bode at Soelden was Michael Janyk in the second run of the Kitzbuehel slalom last season, it may be available on video somewhere.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| abc wrote: |
| Quote: |
Symmetry: what good is it?
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Because you want to go straight after all.
You take one look down the slope and head for it. If you're not symetric, you end up on the side of the trail, or way left (or right) of your intended destination. . |
Tree skiing.
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FAQ
but I turn much better making a curve to the right than to the left, yet conversely if I hockey stop (just a little one!!) its invariably to the left rather than the right which seems at odds with my dominant turn. I'm not symmetrical!!!
