 Poster: A snowHead
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Let me start this by telling you of the environment from which I come.
I'm was a race coach for 30 years. Full time. I designed and oversaw the training for a program that many years had in the neighborhood of 200 racers. And i personally coached the upper tier of that group.
We trained and raced 6 days a week, all season long. Lights on our training slope allowed us to get 3 hours of training in every school day. It was a comprehensive and intense training program, and it consistently produced life long expert skiers, FIS level racers, a continuous supply of talent to academies around the country, and even a few world class athletes; Erik Schlopy might be a name you recognize.
That success was the result of a training program that went to great lengths to developed the entire skiing skill spectrum. Much time was dedicated to developing a wide range of skills in each technical area of the sport. The skill base we embedded in our racers was very broad, and their success was a direct consequence of that skill base.
So the topic of this thread is: How do you guys who teach recreational ski lessons cope with the lack of time you have to work with your students. Obviously, you can't focus on the development of a broad skill base for your students like I did with mine, because of the minimal time you have to work with each student. So where do you cut?
Do you work on the base, and sacrifice reaching for the top? Probably the better option for the long term development of your student, but doesn't provide the percieved bang for the buck, so I would think not the people pleasing choice.
Do you try to straight line to higher skill level skiing, and sacrifice some base development in the process? Probably the more popular option with the students, even though we know the foundation is still a bit weak.
So how do you guys structure your training, and arrange your priorities? It must be frustrating at times having to choose one over the other. I don't envy the challenges you face.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Masque wrote: |
| . In your career you will have spent an inordinate amount of time finessing the skill/talent/drive of an already motivated and competent skier . . . |
I think you will find they started with never evers & trained 'em from scratch (they were kids not adults though)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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FastMan, Good question and for those who teach in England it is a difficult problem. Pupils are broadly in three camps.
1. Beginners who take a block of lessons to get to a stage where they can ski in control when they go to resort
2. Those who come along to the dry slope or indoor snowdome for a practice session or "tune up" lesson before going resort
3. More committed skiers who regularily go to the artificial slopes for training or race coaching.
Group 1. is pretty straightforward and we progress them as you would do on the mountain. Hopefully we motivate them enough that after they are competent to ski on their own indoors that they appreciate how much they can benefit from ongoing training and they continue with lessons in resort and back at home in the off season. I guess i go through the normal progression but try to ensure they are aware that a good warm up will help, balance can be taught and improved upon and to be relaxed when skiing and there is no one fixed style..
2. is harder, and students typically fall into a few camps..
I find very often people come along with good intentions of learning but usually start off with typical British reservedness, reel off a litany of reasons why they will be so bad today in their one hour lesson because "it has been x years", I'm unfit, have sore knees, I'm always rubbish the first x days when i go skiing, etc etc... So lots of times short lessons turn into motivational exercises with little skills development.
Another stereotypical group is the men who had a lesson ages ago from XYZ and what they remember is one magic bullet which they struggled to perform and if all they can do is make this one small adjustment their skiing will be transformed. They want to talk alot about this magic cure and get reassurance that you agree with them. Perhaps it is a male thing but i get this a lot with guys who have poor basic skills but feel, like a golfer with a bad swing, if they adjust their pinky finger the right way they will hit 300yard drives. I do try to explain a bit about the elements of skiing and try to get tehm to appreciate that good skiing is built on a solid base of fundamentals.
Then you get the I just want a "tip" that i can concentrate on and again will magically transform my skiing people. I give them one and they are happy... then try to get into more fundamentals...
I have x weeks skiing, can get down most pistes and i want to learn how to carve today.... Ugly one expecially those who think they can "carve" already and are tail skidders... I just work on edging and single ski drills to get them to feel what it is like to be riding the edge.
I guess in the hour you get with these type 2's (typically in a group) I try to diagnose the major problem and give them some drills to perform, ensure at least one drill is something they can do farily quickly to show some progress and and take a few others away to practice on...
I have to get back to work now but will think about coaching later...... 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Isn't it all down to the goals and the personal motivation of the pupil?
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Well if it isn't, it should be, though we pupils depend on skilled instruction to identify the path between our current skill level and our goals. Even in my limited experience of being on the receiving end the people in a single small group will have a spectrum of aspirations, a spectrum of native ability and a spectrum of determination. It's the same in any teaching; when I had music lessons a few years ago I said I did not want to do "grade" exams, so instead of playing endless arpeggios and scales I worked on some pieces of music which were way beyond me, but far more enjoyable - even though playing them well would have required the skills developed by doing all the exercises for several hours a day. We played duets, though it must have been painful for my teacher, who played beautifully and gave recitals! In skiing my basic skills are questionable but I like having a go at something new and am interested in technical explanations of why what I am doing is wrong. But my ability and motivation to practice endlessly are limited; ultimately my goal is to enjoy myself and just gradually extend my ability (or even, as I grow older, to maintain it). Many of the people I ski with just want to feel a bit more confident and get a bit less tired, skiing from restaurant to restaurant and picking the easy route over the hard one every time. They might have one or two lessons during a holiday.
The difference between an "ordinary" instructor and an excellent one, at the recreational level, is that the former delivers a range of fairly pre-conceived and pre-cooked "lesson plans" whereas the latter is more willing and able to be flexible and quickly to "tune in" and respond to the individual's ability and aspirations rather than try to impose their own idea of the "right" way and the "right" goals.
In any given sporting population there will be a tiny minority of athletes with the capacity to do the kind of professional training Fastman describes. The other 99.6% of us need something rather different, so it's a good job there seem to be plenty of instructors around, including several of those I have experienced, who appear to have solved this apparently insuperable problem!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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FastMan, Coaching v Instruction ?
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Race training in Britain typically involves an hour of that turning stuff on an upturned toothbrush, followed by a 3 hours on the razzle.
It's why the US gets Miller and the UK gets Eddie the Eagle.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Is skiing fundamentally different from any other sport?
Tennis and golf for example require immense dedication and coaching on top of innate talent for success at the highest level. It doesn't mean that "social" players are not capable of deriving enjoyment from them. How many people would play golf if every amateur decided to develop a perfect swing before going on a course?
Try putting the original question in a different context - do you want to take this crappy job for the year on lower pay because in 10 years time it may enable you to be higher up your career ladder or do you you want a payrise and an interesting job right now? Patience and the long game is not necessarily a human virtue, particularly when something game changing may come along like injury. Why should a third party get to play god in this situation?
FWIW I would want to ensure that a client got as much of what they wanted out of a lesson as possible. If the objective were show me around the place, teach me what I need to be able to tackle somehing specific or just teach me what you think is best, the approach would obviously need to vary.
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fatbob,
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| If the objective were 1) show me around the place, 2) teach me what I need to be able to tackle somehing specific or 3) just teach me what you think is best, the approach would obviously need to vary. |
When is the instructor allowed to question a pupil's decision that #2 is possible or desirable?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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comprex, It's about managing expectations, and helping the pupil to identify a goal that is achievable within the timeframe.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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fatbob, if anyone told me that anything I did on skis was "awesome" I'd make myself scarce - as soon as I stopped laughing!
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You know it makes sense.
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pam w, Yep that was my response when an instructor from jersey asked if I was a racer...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Masque wrote: |
FastMan, Isn't it all down to the goals and the personal motivation of the pupil? There can only be two basic goals for the teacher . . . make the student safe for the mountain and help them achieve or better their goals. In your career you will have spent an inordinate amount of time finessing the skill/talent/drive of an already motivated and competent skier . . . down at the 'dirty'  end of that bell curve where so many of us reside we just want the basic skills to look just a little bit good and maybe build on. The teachers at this end are able to distil their knowledge into small, end-user understandable and actionable snippets of instruction.
There is a FUNDAMENTAL difference between 'instruction' and 'coaching' . . . and that'll be the pupils  |
Thanks for the feedback, Masque. I suppose you're absolutely right, the difference is in the pupil. In my years of teaching, I've actually worked with all levels of skiers at one time or another. Back in the 70's I was teaching never-evers in learn to ski weeks in Garmisch. (Down time after my racing was over for the season). We'd take them through the usual progression, and they'd leave happy as pigs in plop, able to ski the mountains easy runs doing parallel turns. I suppose for some, that was enough. They now knew how to ski, and went about their business doing and enjoying it from there.
I guess what bothers me is that those who are satisfied,,, lets see,,, how should I say this,,, don't know what they don't know. They look around the mountain, and they're surrounded by skiers of a similar skill level, and they think they've arrived. They don't really understand the nature and rewards of the plateaus above, much less how to get there. Developing new skills opens doors to more terrain, more enjoyment, more satisfaction. They don't yet know what it feels like to flow with the mountain, rather than battle and survive it. The coach in me wants to take each them by the hand and lead them to a world they don't even know of yet.
It's not me judging, or pressuring people to train and get better. It's just that I know the rewards that come from building skills and becoming more accomplished in our sport. I've seen the life long pleasure the investment has provided 100's of my students. Just this past season I returned to the area where I did the majority of my coaching. It was like a reunion. So many of my students came up to say hi,,, students from many generations. They're the best skiers on the mountain. Some are now coaches themselves,,, some still race as masters,,, some are just super skiers who ski all the time and all over the world. They're all enjoying a sport they will be in for the rest of their lives, with skills that put them on the top rung of the sport, and allows them to ski any mountain or terrain in the world with absolute confidence and grace.
I know that this type of reward and satisfaction is available to everyone out there, regardless of innate athletic abilities. My mission has changed of late. I've trained so many high level racers. Been there, done that. Now I want to take the message to the masses of what is available to them,,, of the enjoyment lying in wait for them. And provide those who find it intriguing a means of getting it. I really think it's much a matter of educating people as to the options they have for their skiing. That it doesn't have to remain status quo. Provide the info that allows for informed choices, and then leave making the choices to them.
It's really just a matter of learning the skills. I've done much adult race coaching too. People who never raced before, but want to give it a go,,, or current beer league racers who want to beat their buddies. Even taught all adult women race classes. What always surprised them was how little time I had them training in the gates. No,,, I instead taught them to ski.
We worked on skills, and skills, and more skills. Balance, and edging, and angulation, flexion/exteinsion, transitions,,, all the basic foundation skills. Racing is really about learning the base skills, just as recreational skiing is.
I worked with a guy here in Colorado this season, one on one, for multiple full day sessions. He's been skiing for many years, and last year gave racing a go. He had gotten to silver medal NASTAR level, 38 handicap. My coaching for him was not in gates. We spent all our time working on his skiing skills. After a few days of working on skiing skills I put him in the NASTAR course and he dropped his handicap into the teens, and got his Gold medal. A few more days of skills training and he dropped to an 8 handicap, got his Platinum medal, and almost qualified for Nationals. The power of skill training.
I think as coaches and instructors we need to cater to current student goals, but also educate them as to the other possibilities available to them. I think we do them a disservice if we fail to. I'm going to make every effort to do so.
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, thanks for that breakdown of student types. Some of it rings a bell,,, the defense mechanisms,,, racers have them too, and have to learn more productive approaches. And the magic pill,,, guess it ain't just us Americans that look for the instant success and gratification. Sounds like your going about things just right: a blend of meeting their expecations, while trying to educate along the way. It's all you can really do. Keep up the good fight.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| FastMan, Coaching v Instruction ? |
Call me an optimist. I think they can be melded.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| fatbob wrote: |
Is skiing fundamentally different from any other sport?
Tennis and golf for example require immense dedication and coaching on top of innate talent for success at the highest level. It doesn't mean that "social" players are not capable of deriving enjoyment from them. How many people would play golf if every amateur decided to develop a perfect swing before going on a course?
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No, it's not different at all.
One thing though. Becoming the top in the world is very much about innate athletic gifts. If you don't have them, you won't bring home Olympic gold, no matter how much you train. That's just reality.
BUT
The skills that are employed to win that Gold, anyone can learn them, and refine them to the level of their own physical abilities. And believe me, for even the below average of natural athletic talents, the refinement and performance boosts can be very high. High enough to put one well above the average recreational skill level, and tremendously elevate the enjoyment of the sport. And the learning does not have to be like taking ill tasting medicine. The learning process can very much be a part of the fun of skiing. So many incremental rewards to be had.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
| fatbob, if anyone told me that anything I did on skis was "awesome" I'd make myself scarce - as soon as I stopped laughing! |
Oh, come on, Pam w. I bet you've had some awesome moments on skis. Awesome recoveries? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FastMan, Pam W is a nice little skier.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| I guess what bothers me is that those who are satisfied,,, lets see,,, how should I say this,,, don't know what they don't know. They look around the mountain, and they're surrounded by skiers of a similar skill level, and they think they've arrived. They don't really understand the nature and rewards of the plateaus above, much less how to get there. |
| Quote: |
| I know that this type of reward and satisfaction is available to everyone out there, regardless of innate athletic abilities. My mission has changed of late. I've trained so many high level racers. Been there, done that. Now I want to take the message to the masses of what is available to them,,, of the enjoyment lying in wait for them. And provide those who find it intriguing a means of getting it. |
Absolutely spot on there, and all power to you with it. In my second week on skis (about 4 years after my first) I got sick after the first morning of the bunny class I was in and transferred to a different group. Part way through the week, one of the others remarked that we seemed to be making some fantastic progress. The instructor (who was a complete maverick) responded that he was teaching us stuff that came straight from (old school) racing, and at a pretty technical level. It was of course way too advanced for me to execute with any level of competence, but it laid a basic foundation that put me in good stead for years to come. We also went out doing knee deep stuff, on moguls, on glacier etc.. On this stuff I messed up the vast majority of turns, but I can vividly remember the feeling of the two I got right even now. From that week I knew what skiing could be, and that it would take me years to do, but I definitely wanted to get there. A few years on, flowing down a 50 degree slope is still not quite there, but it's getting close . Had I stuck with the other class snowploughing down greens I think I would have given up.
Tying back to your OP, I think what worked for me was the instilling of solid technical principles at the start, but not insisting that they be got right before moving on, but allowing those basics to be strengthened over time as the comfort zone expanded. I probably went too far the other way, and have spent a lot of time recently back-filling holes in my technical armory, but I get the impression that I've skied way more varied terrain than, am more self-reliant than, and am rapidly overhauling a load of others with the same amount of time on skis.
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I think what the instructors end up teaching must depend on luck. I'm sure many instructors would gain immense satisfaction from being able to work with a defined group of pupils day in day out coaching them to perform at the top of their ability if this is what the pupil wants. However, unlike something horse riding (and I guess we will all draw our own parallels that we can relate to), no matter how enthusiastic the pupil with the idea the UK doesn't make it easy to ski on a regular basis on any sort of surface. With horse riding I had a stable only 1/2 mile away and rode dedicatedly for 10+ years of lessons - I could turn around the lesson in 1.5 hours and it was astonomically expensive for my mum (although of modest cost). I would find it difficult to similar for my daughter with skiing lessons. The nearest dry slope is 20 or so miles away. Hence many skiing 'punters' are reduced to fitting lessons into their standard on slope holiday time. This is where the bread and butter for most ski instructors must come from (please correct me if I'm wrong). So this dedicated band of instructors gets to work with someone for an average (lets guess) 4-5 hours in a week and needs to give each punter a satisfying lesson that the punter feels has increased their ability/confidence on the slope. This can't, by any stretch of the imagination be an easy task, yet the skiing slopes are full of Gailes, Claudes and Euans that carry it off with aplomb and all appear (outwardly at least) to gain some satisfaction out of being able to give the average punter a worthwhile experience with their skiing. The sheer numbers of instructors willing to do this can't be accidental, so it must give those instructors a similar buzz to the those that coach the elite. I guess what it boils down to is horses for courses - there is a full spectrum of punters at all levels so there needs to be a full spectrum of instructors perpared to cope with them. To all the Gailes, Claudes and Euans out there I salute your dedication to the task. I have benefitted from every 'punters' lesson I've had.
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GrahamN, thanks for sharing your story. I've seen what you describe so many times. Someone gets a taste of new skills, a different skiing experience, and they want more of it. This statement of yours sums it up so well:
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| From that week I knew what skiing could be |
It's like being granted a window to a new world,,, one you didn't even realize existed. It's very much provides a huge motivation to want to get there.
I know it's motivated you,,, I can tell from reading here of the course you've taken to hone your skills. And I'm sure you could attest that the training and learning process is more fun than sacrificial. That's what I most remember from my most intense days of learning; the breakthroughs,,, the rewards of accomplishment,,, the more fun skiing would become each time it happened,,, how skiing would become more of a dance with the mountain, and less of a battle.
Megumum, it's kind of like that carving breakthrough you wrote about. It's energizing,,, stimulating. A WOW moment. It puts an instant smile on your face. You want to do more of it,,, get better at it,,, find out just what you can do with it,,, how far you can take it. I'm here to tell you that you can take it very far. You've only gotten a taste of of what is a massive buffet of new skiing skills and experiences yet to touch your palette. You're at a wondrous time in your affair with the sport. I actually envy you. So many mega breakthrough moments are so within your grasp, the ability to experience them limited only by the level of your desire to reach out and grab them.
You are right that limited time to be on snow also limits the rate at which you can improve. But it doesn't halt it. It's just a matter of using the time available constructively. Get a comprehensive training program you feel comfortable with. Come to understand how the program works,,, where it's designed to take you,,, and how it plans to get you there. Then blend learning and practicing new skills into the time you have on snow. It's a life sport, always remember that. Each step forward you take is a step that will continue to bring you more satisfaction from that moment on, for the rest of your time in the sport. The speed at which the steps come is not so important. That of course is influenced by how much time one has to pursue them. The pursuit itself,,, will it happen at all,,, that's the thing each person has complete choice in.
Oh, GrahamN. One more thing I wanted to mention to you. As far as the best method of learning the skills; you mentioned that you took the fast forward approach, and that it worked well for you. You just are now going back and filling in holes. Cool. I think different people will find different approaches more suitable for their own learning style. Personally, I've found the following a pretty good general approach for many of my students. I do a modified "What About Bob" baby steps approach. Start off with very basic skill building. Introduce new base skills I feel (by virtue of my evaluation of their present skill level ) is well with in their ability to master and experience success. Develop basic competence in execution (not perfection), then take another baby step forward. Frequently during the process step back to review and refine skills previously learned,,, then move forward again (similar to what you described). In this leapfrog manner the skill base keeps growing and getting made stronger, while that base serves to make new skills being introduced that much easier to master. The lack of significant holes left in the expanding skill base allows for a confidence building journey where new skills can be learned and melded into the base at a pretty good quality level right off the bat. And as the skill base continues to grow and be refined, the rate at which new skills can be adopted, and the options for choreographing the existing skill base into many different/unique techniques, expands exponentially.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sat 21-06-08 22:00; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FastMan, how do you feel about chains of skill-progressive drills/exercises/skiing instead of a la carte randomly fitted exercises, that can be presented to the student as a chain, and remembered thus for independent (annual?) review, and, further, hopefully preserving the sense of what hinges on what else? Would that make the leapfrogging you speak of easier for the slightly less patient student?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| comprex wrote: |
| FastMan, how do you feel about chains of skill-progressive drills/exercises/skiing instead of a la carte randomly fitted exercises, that can be presented to the student as a chain, and remembered thus for independent (annual?) review, and, further, hopefully preserving the sense of what hinges on what else? Would that make the leapfrogging you speak of easier for the slightly less patient student? |
Actually, comprex, I like it a lot. There definitely is a "chain" drill order that works for many students, and makes the learning process easier for them. Think of the different areas of skill development; balance, edging, angulation, flexion/extension, rotation, transitions. Each area has different levels of skill that are often best aspired to via a progressive series of gradually more challenging skill development drills.
Example: Lifting the tail of the inside ski for the bottom half of the turn is a entry level balance drill/skill. Lifting and keeping the same ski entirely off the snow while carving fairly high edge angle arc to arc 90 degree turns down a steep run with weight move from fore to aft during the execution of each turn is an advanced level balance skill/drill. A multitude of progressive drills can be used to gradually lead a student from the the entry level drill, to the advance drill. The same procedure can very effectively be used to advance student skill levels in each of the technical areas I mentioned above. I'm a strong endorser and user of this teaching methodology.
And boy, you bet,,, review is SO important. It continues to embed skills, movement patterns and awareness ever more deeply into the muscle memory,,, and keep current skills fresh and at hand. I recommend people put together a daily skill warm-up routine, that they religiously engage in during the first run or two of each day on the slopes. Not only does it continue the skill refininment process,,, it dials you in and puts you on the top of your game for the rest of the day.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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FastMan, thank you.
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| That's what I most remember from my most intense days of learning; the breakthroughs,,, the rewards of accomplishment,,, the more fun skiing would become each time it happened..... |
Quite, and of course that is given a quantitative measure in a racing environment with the elation that comes with each 0.2 second you get closer to the fast guys out the front - in addition to the simple feel of getting a run that just flows. You do have to park your ego though when you find that you can no longer keep up with the 12 yo girl you were trouncing last year  (although actually just at the moment there are a couple of - OK not first rate - 14yo boys I've managed to catch up with and even overhaul in the last year ). And of course the inspiration of one of our coaches, who is a couple of years younger than me, and about 10% faster - so not necessarily completely out of sight, but far enough that it'll take me years to get close to him.
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| As far as the best method of learning the skills; you mentioned that you took the fast forward approach, and that it worked well for you.....I think different people will find different approaches more suitable for their own learning style. |
Yes, and I guess it requires a certain type of character for this to work: you need to not be fazed by getting it horribly wrong, and not mind picking up a fair crop of bumps and bruises along the road. I certainly agree with the leapfrog approach - push yourself to a point where you're having trouble, after which the step back makes the thing you were having trouble previously so much easier. As I said, I probably over-extended myself too far, but I always needed to go beyond the limits of my capability to show myself where the skills were lacking. In my case I think the things I missed out most were the less obvious (but more fundamental) skills of range of movement and being able to move while staying in balance. And I probably still do (need to keep on pushing beyond my current capability) - e.g. in our last training session there was a turn (two big offset gates after a fast hairpin) I probably skied out at 10 times before I worked out what I was doing wrong (over-committing at the last element of the hairpin resulting in a very late transition out of it). Having worked that out I then got through the course in reasonable form for the remaining three runs - which were then some of the most exhilarating runs through a course I've ever had.
| Quote: |
| You are right that limited time to be on snow also limits the rate at which you can improve. But it doesn't halt it. It's just a matter of using the time available constructively. Get a comprehensive training program you feel comfortable with. Come to understand how the program works,,, where it's designed to take you,,, and how it plans to get you there. |
And there it's back to the subtext of your OP - how do you get a "training program" when you only get a week or two on snow a year? Rather than the "muscle memory" problem, which frankly I never noticed as being a problem in my early days, there is a genuine memory problem - of remembering exactly what you were trying to do a year ago, and where you were having particular problems. And while the one-week-a-year skier still wants to improve, how is the balance struck between a formal training plan and the "go for the biggest smile" approach? And even convincing them that the former can lead to the latter (I've hardly stopped smiling since working out that a four inch difference in where I put my body achieved the transformation that got me through that course). The elephant in the room of my story of course is that for the last three years I've been skiing at least twice a week, 52 weeks of the year. This means that I can remember very clearly what I was working on in the previous session, where it went wrong and what I was doing when I got it right.
Drills - yep, a good regular warm-up series works well from the consumer perspective as well. It also gives you a good feel for how well you are skiing from session to session - whether your movements are free or a bit stilted, whether you are sitting on your heels more today, etc.. I have to admit though that I've let mine become very unstructured at the moment; as my skill level has improved the previous set became a bit of a cruise and I've thrown in a few tougher ones recently, to reinforce more newly-acquired skills, but not really thought properly about keeping a proper balance between them.
That chain idea sounds brilliant, although not really something I've come across before. I've picked up a few along the way, but don't really get to see anything down the road (apart from anything else I'm now about the best in our club, so now don't really have any example to follow). Maybe something to ask our coaches about.
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You know it makes sense.
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easiski, agreed, and I remember you giving a few of those chains out here from time to time. What I was meaning, and clearly didn't explain too well, was that the student/client/punter doesn't really get to see that chain, other than the bit of it that happens to be most relevant to them at the time of that particular lesson. It was actually the bit that
| comprex wrote: |
| that can be presented to the student as a chain, and remembered thus for independent (annual?) review, and, further, hopefully preserving the sense of what hinges on what else? |
that I thought innovative - for giving the student an idea of whereabouts they are in the progression and what comes next. Now of course the moot point is whether that's sensible for someone who's just doing a week a year, or whether that will confuse them/lead them on too quickly - or just reduce your likelihood of getting repeat business . Again maybe more appropriate for a coaching rather than instruction environment? Although thinking back to those 2nd week lessons, in a similar sort of vein, having got us doing basic parallel, the instructor then went through a progression of turns ("knee drive", "hip thrust", "counter-turn") which we made various hashes of then, but he showed us where and when they would be most useful. But three or four years later it kicked in and I would think "ooh, hip thrust here", or "counterturn there".
Oh, and welcome back to the bear-pit .
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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GrahamN, Cheers - yes, Fastman does have a very good way of consolidating ideas into sensible explanations. I, personally do like to point out exercises further up the chain, and of course it's ideal in the summer, like last Thurs, when going up the T bar and seeing some of the racers doing various balance exercises at a high level, and being able to say to my student 'that's similar to what we're doing but much further up the technical scale'. They're doing it for the same reasons, but that one's too hard for you at the moment.
I'm not back for good, because certain peeps are bound to start up again if I am. Sorry - I do read the threads (mostly), and found this one particularly interesting.
FWIW I think: Instruction = This is what you should do ...... not much correction - literally 'instruction' as per large classes - you get what you pay for!
Teaching = this is what you should do ... followed by correction and help to achieve it
Coaching = teaching on a 1-1 basis over a period of time.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| easiski wrote: |
| I'm not back for good, because certain peeps are bound to start up again if I am. Sorry - I do read the threads (mostly), and found this one particularly interesting. |
Shame - good to see you back.
| easiski wrote: |
FWIW I think: Instruction = This is what you should do ...... not much correction - literally 'instruction' as per large classes - you get what you pay for!
Teaching = this is what you should do ... followed by correction and help to achieve it
Coaching = teaching on a 1-1 basis over a period of time. |
This is what I was alluding to in my post above. It's nice to be able to work with skiers over a longer period of time but more often than not in a ski school environment you may see a person for a very limited period and in a group. Then it's a case if identifying the element which is going to make the biggest difference in the time available.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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FastMan, On the coaching side of the question here in the UK.... Most people go to dry slope clubs and there is typically a 2 hour session once a week. Others go to the indoor snowdomes and pay a bit more. Some (generally with cash) are able to get out to race camps or at a high level will train and be schooled in places like Austria..
I have trained at my local dry slope club and they produce some reasonably good racers, I have also just started coaching young racers a few months ago at an indoor snow dome and the differences in approach are quite interesting...
The dry slope is a turn up on the night situation with highly variable numbers and wide ranges of abilities. The two coaches are good trainers and ex racers. They are very attentive and strive to give lots of individual feedback. They group the kids by ability and set drills accordingly. They work a lot on basic drills and progressions but get overwhelmed sometimes with high numbers. All everyone wants to do is run gates so almost all sessions have some time in the gates. Once a month the session is a friendly race only without training and lots of club members participate. The more senior kids/ young adults in effect became assistant coaches but didnt have any coach or instructor training and sort of have the job thrust upon them. They typically didnt like having to do this and felt uncomfortable giving feedback or setting tasks...
Snowdome club is well organised with an online training day registration system with cut off points so the Performance Director knows who and how many people are training. The trainees are grouped not by ability but by three age groups. Each age group trains separately and is assigned a Lead Coach who oversees training regimes, sets out weekly/monthly plans on what areas will be worked on, progress with each athletes physical training along with periodisation for scheduled races. much less emphasis on gates but more work with carrots and setting sections of courses and tactics for dealing with gate combinations or positions. Each session has a point of focus, the kids go through a strict warm up and are encouraged to develop their own warm up routines (which they never do )
All students are referred to as "athletes" and the club takes a much more performance based approach to training with the older ones. There is a strict 8 to 1 athlete to coach ratio and additional coaches are drafted in to ensure this ratio isnt exceeded. all coaches are required to spend 15 minutes pre and post training to chat to parents (for which they are paid for) and give regular feedback on progress and setting outside hours training... For instance one of my kids had some balance problems which i put down to being a gangly growing 8 year old but in fact was due to some inner ear problems. We now have him practicing on balance exercises at home which is quickly producing improvements and boosting his confidence.. Each athlete does occasional recorded ski skills tests and they have just started to put in a prgramme of testing performance levels at a local track.
The performance director works with each age group directly and takes an oversight role with regards to each individual. No kids are singled out as "elite" and all are given equal treatment and encouraged to compete in races irrespective of their ability. Some of the best kids do get one on one coaching outside of the group sessions. Although performance biased there is a clear appreciation that very few will ever go onto racing at a highly competitive level and that we must ensure we are producing lifetime skiers who enjoy skiing as a sport.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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[quote="GrahamN"] Quite, and of course that is given a quantitative measure in a racing environment with the elation that comes with each 0.2 second you get closer to the fast guys out the front - in addition to the simple feel of getting a run that just flows. You do have to park your ego though when you find that you can no longer keep up with the 12 yo girl you were trouncing last year
Yes, the clock definitely provides some pretty concrete feedback. And with that feedback, real motivation to improve. Keep pluggin ahead. It's interesting how breakthroughs come. You keep building fundamental skills, then one day they it all just comes together. Something clicks, and all of a sudden you make a big leap forward.
I've seen it happen many times with my racers. I particularly remember watching one of my kids, a regular mid-pack finisher, come out of nowhere to win a slalom. From way back in the start order he ripped down a rutted headwall to the gasps and amazement of onlookers. All they could say was, "who the hell is that kid"? From then on he was a top contender. That's how suddenly it can sometimes happen. |
| Quote: |
| Drills - yep, a good regular warm-up series works well from the consumer perspective as well. It also gives you a good feel for how well you are skiing from session to session - whether your movements are free or a bit stilted, whether you are sitting on your heels more today, etc.. I have to admit though that I've let mine become very unstructured at the moment; as my skill level has improved the previous set became a bit of a cruise and I've thrown in a few tougher ones recently, to reinforce more newly-acquired skills, but not really thought properly about keeping a proper balance between them. |
Which gives me a good idea. I think I'll create some drill sequences for people to use for their daily warm-up. Different sequences for different skier skill levels.
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| That chain idea sounds brilliant, although not really something I've come across before. I've picked up a few along the way, but don't really get to see anything down the road (apart from anything else I'm now about the best in our club, so now don't really have any example to follow). Maybe something to ask our coaches about. |
Actually, this training methodology is going to be the foundation of the program I'm putting out.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skimottaret, thanks for taking the time to share. Your explanation of coaching in the UK sounds like a case of doing the most with what you have to work with. Sounds like you guys are doing a good job. Well structured and thought out.
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| Although performance biased there is a clear appreciation that very few will ever go onto racing at a highly competitive level and that we must ensure we are producing lifetime skiers who enjoy skiing as a sport. |
That is so important. I'm glad to you guys thinking along those lines. It mirrors what my philosophy always was. Don't lose sight of the lower 90 percent in favor of the top 10. Too many coaches do get caught up in that. I think a successful program optimizes every students personal potential, and provides a means of gauging and recognizing each individuals success.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FastMan, Butterfly has suggested that I video some of the clubs doing various exercises here with a bit of a commentary on what they're doing and why. She's fairly knocked out by seeing all the good skiers tackling the same sort of problems she has, but at a much higher level. Sounded like a good idea to me, except that I have this problem of not being able to download from my video camera at the moment!  (replacement laptop doesn't have firewire, camera only has firewire). If I sort this problem out I may attack this one, and post it on UTube or some such.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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easiski, Try red frog to youtube? or to CD?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FastMan, Thanks for the encouraging response - I hope that I go on from strength to strength as you suggest. The VT trip I think saw the breakthrough it went from something I saw as needing to do to go onto the mountain with my children even though it terrified me, to something I started to find that I was enjoying doing and looked forward to going out the next day to do even more. Now I keep stealing a glance at the skis stood in the corner of the room (all shiny and polished from their trip to see Spyderjon and thinking corrrrrr I can't wait until next Feb!!!
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FAQ
thanks for the link though.
