Fastman put together this little video... I thought you might like to take a look
I'm the skier in the video and he had me demonstrate the various stages skiers go through while learning edge control.
He says it is not the exact path every skier travels while learning but is a good generalisation.
He says most people can identify their own skill level by relating to one or more of the various stages found in this video.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
little tiger, quick question, was the footage filmed as your actually learned to ski over a period of time or was it 'staged' to indicate what you were skiing like at various points in time?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
little tiger, please let us know when the yourskicoach.com website goes active... would be interesting to hear what Rick had you work on at each stage to progress...
was it 'staged' to indicate what you were skiing like at various points in time?
Blimey, that would REALLY indicate exceptional skill. I would doubt that even the brilliant little tiger could manage to do that. I'd be interested to know the length of the period from start to finish....though, there again, we cannot all devote the long periods each year to skiing that little tiger does. It obviously pays huge dividends - what fantastic progress!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Very good. Looked like it was "staged" to me, rather than being shot over several seasons - little tiger am I right on this? It's a nice video for trainee instructors to see this kind of progression, as well as useful for learners who are particularly interested in what they are aiming for.
Would have liked to see more video looking at progression in carving skills. Maybe that will be for 'Part 2'?
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 7-05-08 9:37; edited 1 time in total
Hurtle, actually, IMHO, not really I don't think - provided (as LT seems to be) you are quite aware both of what you're doing at any point and what a given skill level is likely to do. (or, what typical errors they would make - as it can often be easy to replicate the "error"). Looks to me as though the vid is (nicely) staged. Would be interesting to know...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar, David Murdoch, interesting. I still think that a very high level of skill is required to demonstrate the 'wrong' way of doing something. Even warmer congratulations are then due.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Hurtle, check out the 'gear' that little tiger, is wearing in each stage
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Hurtle, I think DM had it right saying that great awareness is required rather than a very high skill level. You need to have an understanding of why many skiers get stuck (on the intermediate plateau to use a often used phrase) as well as being very aware of what is going on in your own skiing (it's taken my a long time to develop that). Once you have those two things an adaptable skier should be able to replicate common stages of skiing progression, which is what little tiger has done very effectively.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
C'mon guys, I know it's a work morning in a bankholiday week, but how about engaging a bit of brain activity! Of course these are staged 'demonstrations' rather than documentary of an actual learning process - little tiger even says so in the OP - and we should all by now know of the thousands of hours she's spent with WC coaches ( ). Looks to me like the shots are on two days (red top, bright sunshine; blue top, softer light). Echo what rob@rar said.
little tiger, Fastman, excellent vid. Here's an idea you may like to think about though. These shots back up the hill don't make it particularly obvious how the turn shape varies with the different style of turn. Don't know whether it would be practical or not, but how about trying to do some kind of overlay of one turn style over another - like they do sometimes on the BBC race coverage, or maybe in freeze frame a la RonLeMaster. Could also maybe get some shots of the tracks made in the snow from that chairlift? This would then make it much clearer when e.g. the skis are allowed to run a bit in the fall line or are overturned and snatched coming out of it. We all know that one of the triggers for screwing up the end of a turn is a bit of panic when running down the fall-line.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Wed 7-05-08 9:59; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rob@rar, I stand corrected and am full of admiration.
rayscoops, I've been wearing mostly the same ski gear for about twelve years. (I still wear a fartbag.)
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
...ah...time for me to leave these hallowed portals again, methinks. My brain power once again proves itself inadequate (at an even earlier stage in the proceedings than normal.)
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Hurtle, hope your sking has advanced further than your fashion sense then
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rayscoops, it's not a question of fashion sense, it's a question of spending megabucks on stuff I wear for about two weeks a year, when existing gear is perfectly functional. You will be relieved to know, however, that it is a fartbag of very sober hue.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Hurtle, sometimes a new jacket just spurs one on to better things
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
little tiger, thanks for sharing that great vid. Were it not for the soundtrack then I would watch it again and again
The skiing looks great.
Cant believe some of you numpties thought it was time lapse
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
GrahamN wrote:
C'mon guys, I know it's a work morning in a bankholiday week, but how about engaging a bit of brain activity! Of course these are staged 'demonstrations' rather than documentary of an actual learning process
I was just being polite for a change actually th OP says it relates to the stages of edge control, not that it was 'staged'. It would be good to see a vid of someone learning to ski (whilst doing a season maybe) and really see the actual transformation from beginner technique to a good standard of skiing.
Anyone got some early vids of their skiing form beginner to advanced?
I think the good point is that the vid is not by an expert, but by some one coming to skiing later in life, which gives all newbies the message that anyone can achieve these standards. Good work by all concerned I think
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
An interesting video - I think I have a long way to go as I'm not even on the first stage though!! What did surprise me was how short the radius of a carved turn could actually be (yes, I appreciate it probably has a lot to do with the skis being used). It was nearly as tight as those turns which were actually being steered.
It was nearly as tight as those turns which were actually being steered.
You can actually further decrease the radius of a carved turn by applying steering pressure whilst the ski is carving, to make it even tighter.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Thanks for a fascinating video, though I have to say at my stage I found it quite hard (admittedly watching without the soundtrack due to circumstances) to see some of the finer differences between each exercise - it just shows how far I have yet to go! I will watch it more closely, with sound, later!
I look forward to seeing the full website with not only part 2, but also part -1 which would show the progression I am really struggling with just now, ie the leaving go of the snowplough turn and the development of the parallel technique.
rayscoops, I actually have video footage of my skiing at the end of my first 2 seasons on skis..... When I get home I will try to find someone to help me capture them...
Butterfly, Megamum, You would laugh if you saw those first videos... I'm scared stiff and barely moving.... If you had any idea how hard it was for me to learn to do simple things like flex my ankles, roll my feet, etc you would understand why we say anyone can achieve the levels displayed in that video
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Hi gang, been awhile since I dropped in here. What a winter, between coaching and countless hours/days of filming, barely a moment to breath. Anyway, Little Tiger told me she posted the video here, so perhaps I can answer some of the questions.
The staged guessers were right. The entire video was filmed in a couple hours, over a couple days. We actually had all the footage we needed after a couple trips up the lift on the first day, but a bad tape caused a loss of footage, and we had to re-shoot some of it on the second day. Thus the wardrobe change. While filming, I would tell Janis what I wanted her to demonstrate, and she would do it. All the shots you see in the film were first takes, and we used almost every shot we took. The only shots we didn't use were because of my poor freehand videography skills. Yes, her skills are that good that she can just do it on demand, first take.
After all it is free
After all it is free
little tiger, I too have video of my first lessons, and then approx once a year for the next three years, now I've had a few lessons from easiski I should bribe other half to film me again. Video is a useful bit of kit. I loved your video, have added it to my "Favourites" file, thankyou for showing us.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
skimottaret wrote:
little tiger, please let us know when the yourskicoach.com website goes active... would be interesting to hear what Rick had you work on at each stage to progress...
During the season, prior to filming, we had been working on a lot of rotary/steering and balance skills. She had also been working with Easiski in this skill area last season too. Her carving skills were pretty good, but her steering/rotary skills had some holes. Has to do with the proprioception issues she has, and the poor sensory feedback a sliding ski provides. She has come far in filling the holes, though, as the video shows.
The website should be open sometime this summer. I plan on having a bunch of technical articles on it, as well as offering a series of instructional DVD's. Soon as I can get it all ready to go, I'll launch it.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
David Murdoch wrote:
Hurtle, actually, IMHO, not really I don't think - provided (as LT seems to be) you are quite aware both of what you're doing at any point and what a given skill level is likely to do. (or, what typical errors they would make - as it can often be easy to replicate the "error"). Looks to me as though the vid is (nicely) staged. Would be interesting to know...
This is right on, David. Growing as a skier is very much about building the skill base, expanding fine awareness of exactly what you are doing at any moment, and gaining the ability to manipulate what you are doing at will. By putting in the work via a well structured learning progression, virtually anyone can get to the level Little Tiger is now.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
FastMan, welcome back, we've missed you.....lots!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
GrahamN wrote:
little tiger, Fastman, excellent vid. Here's an idea you may like to think about though. These shots back up the hill don't make it particularly obvious how the turn shape varies with the different style of turn. Don't know whether it would be practical or not, but how about trying to do some kind of overlay of one turn style over another - like they do sometimes on the BBC race coverage, or maybe in freeze frame a la RonLeMaster. Could also maybe get some shots of the tracks made in the snow from that chairlift? This would then make it much clearer when e.g. the skis are allowed to run a bit in the fall line or are overturned and snatched coming out of it. We all know that one of the triggers for screwing up the end of a turn is a bit of panic when running down the fall-line.
Thanks, GrahamN. Good production ideas. Yeah, this video was just a little side project we slapped together pretty fast. The instructional series DVD project I'm working on now will draw from over 1000 clips shot of myself over the course of this season. Many different angles, close ups, slo mo's, freeze frames, track shots, etc, etc will be included to provide clarity for each drill and technique described.
And thanks for the welcome back.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Megamum wrote:
An interesting video - I think I have a long way to go as I'm not even on the first stage though!! What did surprise me was how short the radius of a carved turn could actually be (yes, I appreciate it probably has a lot to do with the skis being used). It was nearly as tight as those turns which were actually being steered.
And Megamum as the potential for carving "tight" turns goes, those were actually pretty tame. Little Tiger was on a GS race ski during that entire video. A GS race ski is actually made for carving longer/straighter turns, and struggles to carve tighter turns. A slalom ski, or the average recreational carving ski, will carve even sharper/tighter turns. Also, I was instructing Little Tiger to carve only medium edge angle turns for those clips, so more potential for tighter turns dwells even in those skis. Carving does provide a pretty wide range of turn shapes by simply changing how far you tip you skis on edge, and how forward or back you move your balance point of the skis. The shape of the ski and the angle you tip them are the major determiners of how sharp you will turn, and where you balance on them is a minor contributor.
But for the time being, you don't need to worry too much about carving. There are many foundation edging/steering skills to be learned before that comes, and once those are under your belt, learning quality carving is a piece of cake. Find fun in the process, and enjoy the journey. If you keep focusing on putting one foot in front of the other, and enjoying the scenery along the way, arriving at the ultimate destination takes care of itself.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rayscoops wrote:
I think the good point is that the vid is not by an expert, but by some one coming to skiing later in life, which gives all newbies the message that anyone can achieve these standards. Good work by all concerned I think
This is an important message that can be taken from this video,,, and one both Little Tiger and I wanted to send. Thanks, rayscoops, for emphasizing it.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
FastMan, any more details available on the 'refinement' part of the 'RST' particularly as relates to that inside leg steering?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
FastMan, an excellent video. Can't wait to see the rest of your stuff.
little tiger, glad to see the tips I gave you in Utah really helped
But guy's, you gotta fix that music for when your site goes live
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
comprex wrote:
FastMan, any more details available on the 'refinement' part of the 'RST' particularly as relates to that inside leg steering?
In the REFINED STEERED TURN fore/aft balance is maintained at neutral. The turn start with absolutely no pivoting. It starts very cleanly, with a progressive introduction of a steered twisting of the skis that gradually builds only to the minimum magnitude that is needed to produce the desired turn shape. The skis are turned only so far as to create the desired turn. The track left in the snow should be very narrow, because the skis should not be twisted much past the direction of travel.
The turn shape should be very consistent in shape from start to finish, regardless of the sharpness of the turn. Pressure on the skis should be very consistent, from the beginning of the turn to the finish. There should be no hard pressure application at the end of the turn, and no aggressive up move that lightens the skis between turns. Ski to snow contact pressure should be felt all through the transition period between turns. Pole plants should be only a light touch, and not so aggressive as to simulate a blocking pole plant and encourage a pivot.
Dominant weight should be on the outside ski, but some should be on the inside ski too, so that the legs can work in cooperation when steering. The skis should be tipped onto equal and low edge angles, and the legs should maintain tip angle symmetry throughout the turn. The legs should steer together such that parallel skis are maintained through all phases of the turn.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
spyderjon wrote:
FastMan, an excellent video. Can't wait to see the rest of your stuff.
little tiger, glad to see the tips I gave you in Utah really helped
But guy's, you gotta fix that music for when your site goes live
The music was for that little "play" video only.... No problem for the production stuff...
The stuff for the DVD's will use better camera etc than we used for that... and will not suffer from the compression and youtube factor so much better visual quality.... Plus there are many many clips - I know I was on the other end of camera all that time... including close up shots of skis/legs etc So much easier to see and understand.
Now it needs to be made available in PDA format so that you can take it to the slope with you and study form before setting off down the slope.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
B.t.w. I agree with Butterfly it would be useful to see a clip including the stages before those in this video as I also don't think I'm this far advanced yet - though I intend getting there one day.
little tiger, Was it difficult to ski at a lower level and to re-include the faults that you have already spent time getting over.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
A good video and well done the music did suck though .
Megamum wrote:
little tiger, Was it difficult to ski at a lower level and to re-include the faults that you have already spent time getting over.
Yes first turn shown is easier to do than the 2nd last type but are they not all just different types of turn to be used if and when needed to get you down the mountain. The snowplough is a very basic technique but still has it's place in lift queues etc... The first turn seems like an excellent way of controlling you speed if you were skiing a very steep and narrow section. Carving is great fun but not the only type of turn to be used all the time (unless you are on a race course of course)?
edit: just watched the video again no I'm wrong simalar type of turn but more jumped
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 7-05-08 22:39; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
Megamum wrote:
Now it needs to be made available in PDA format so that you can take it to the slope with you and study form before setting off down the slope.
You are reading my mind
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Megamum, Only the first turn was hard to do. Mostly because it almost stops your forward progress down hill and then you need to almost throw yourself off again, versus a smoother gliding of your body in the direction you wish to go.
Other than that I just did as Fastman directed and as he said we used pretty much all our footage - if you exclude camera bounces and such.
BTW - I never did have all those errors in my personal skiing. I never developed the tail push because I was always having lessons and so had that habit stamped out early
Also I sort of "skipped" some development stages - with my disability carving was more natural than "skidding" so I needed to go back and refine my steering skills quite a lot the last 2 years. I could perform a decent parallel turn but struggled with any refinement due to skipping into carving a little earlier than normal...(Long story Easiski or Fastman may elucidate)
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
little tiger wrote:
Butterfly, Megamum, You would laugh if you saw those first videos... I'm scared stiff and barely moving.... If you had any idea how hard it was for me to learn to do simple things like flex my ankles, roll my feet, etc you would understand why we say anyone can achieve the levels displayed in that video
I'd be interested to hear more about your development and if you could steel yourself to sharing those videos it'd be most encouraging, as at the moment it seems an impossibility for me to achieve even a halfway decent relaxed and effective style of getting down a slope! How long have you been skiing? How did you learn to flex your ankles? I am having real difficulties with that one despite trying to do calf stretches as often as possible and keeping on trying to increase the flex.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
). Looks to me like the shots are on two days (red top, bright sunshine; blue top, softer light). Echo what 
actually th OP says it relates to the stages of edge control, not that it was 'staged'. It would be good to see a vid of someone learning to ski (whilst doing a season maybe) and really see the actual transformation from beginner technique to a good standard of skiing.
If you had any idea how hard it was for me to learn to do simple things like flex my ankles, roll my feet, etc you would understand why we say anyone 
The music was for that little "play" video only.... No problem for the production stuff...
