 Poster: A snowHead
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Lets try again now that we better understand the physics involved 
Tip lead is a normal part of skiing that occurs as a result of higher edge angles, skiing on steep terrain, etc and is a natural component in making good solid carved turns. However lots of good skiers have excessively large inner tips leads when skiing at recreational speeds leading to biomechanically weak positions.
Excessive tip lead is typically symptomatic of other underlying problems but occasionally is a primary problem in it own right. There are lots of reasons as to why this problem manifests in skiing but here are a few issues to think about rectifying.
Primary:
Skiers "shuffle" their feet (typically at transition)
Skiers purposely place their inner leg forward apeing the mental image of WC level racers
they were told by someone to do it!
Symptomatic of underlying problems:
Poor rotated hip position (the key problem IMO)
Skiers who learned on straight skis and who counter a lot (old skool) sometimes have this as a habit
being in the back seat can cause a weak hip position
The skier has difficulty seperating their upper and lower body.
Straight/stiff outer leg
with a long outer leg the inner leg collapses and the tip leads and diverges
Banking
skiers in a weak "banked" position will need to have a short inner leg with too much pressure on the inside to avoid falling over, this will lead to excessive tip lead and scissoring.
on steeps skiers tend to bank into the hill leaving the outer hip open
Shoulder swinging which causes hips to go out of alignment
THere are others but....
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What drills would you do to help a skier develop muscle memory to eliminate these problems?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm going to pose this as a question as I'm probably not confident enough to state it with conviction - though for me it does seem to work.
Javelin turns: taught to me a means for ensuring hips in the correct position to establish the right balance/position over one's skis. I still use this and it does seem to "remind" me about optimum position and close down an inclination to push my hip/back bottom out sometimes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Chasseur, good one, to me any drill which focuses on getting the hip joint in a square position to the skis is what we need to focus in on.
Javelins are good for loads of things and IMO the best drill any good intermediate/advanced skier should be doing... here are a few others
DRILL LIST As of 18 april
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"Prove" to the student that a large forward inner tip is a weak position by pulling them down the hill by their poles. do it again with their hips square to the skis
Stand across hill with skis parallel, normal width apart, but uphill ski pushed way forward - attempt to roll skis as far as possible onto their edges into the hill. Repeat with ski tips level to show how much easier it is.
Other drill progressions .. starting in traverse only
try to make a carved turn down and gently back up the hill solely on the outside foot
Do this on the inner foot
do this with two feet and see if you leave two clear pencil tracks
once you can make two footed pencil tracks as you come to a stop facing slightly uphill relax and try to ski backwards following the forward tracks exactly without skidding.
try to do the above drills with tighter and tigher radii
without poles and hands on hips in a double teapot fashion see if you can ski with the teapot handles perpendicular to the skis at all times.
do the same drill but using a single pole held with both hands firmly across your beltline.
Get student to ski with grossly exagerated inner tip lead to see how it feels to them, then switch to exagerated outer tip lead, in a telemark stance. then get them to see if they then can ski / feel a more neutral position.
Ski with an imaginary bolt holding your ski tips a shoulder width apart
Tuck into a "downhillers" position when on an easy gradient and make turns through rolling onto the edges
Push your inner foot back under you when making turns.
manage your inside tip lead by smoothly and progressively moving outer foot forward and inner foot back without any sudden movements.
if in a group have each skier make some turns and get the group to rate the amount of inner tip lead on a scale of 1 to 10... give feedback to student based on peer review.
FOr advance skiers introduce the Charleston drill
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 18-04-08 10:23; edited 5 times in total
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Its funny how one forgets things sometimes. I spent much of a whole week repeatedly skiing a carve on outside, then inside ski!
If I can explain this right - on a piste that has a significantly higher side than the other, yet overall is falling away and downhill before you, use the adverse slope to slide downhill, then angulate and progress into a carve, relax and slide, and angulate and carve. Continue as a means of establishing "memory" and the different feel from sliding to carving. That's probably not a very technical description in all honesty.
A bit of a tricky exercise for a snowdome admitedly!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Chasseur, that's a sort of "carved garland". Great fun and a good exercise.Not necessarily one I'd think of for squaring up the hips though.
| skimottaret wrote: |
| Lets try again now that we better understand the physics involved |
Honestly, it's maths not physics. How on earth can we have a sensible discussion with slack terminology like this? 
(JOKE - please do not respond)
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skimottaret,
| Quote: |
Javelins are good for loads of things and IMO the best drill any good intermediate/advanced skier should be doing
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I don't want to de-rail (ho ho) your thread, but would be most interested to know what other things javelins are good for. Perhaps you could very kindly PM me if this is too off-topic? Thanks. Also wanted to say how useful your glossary is - I might not (in fact I definitely won't) understand most of the maths or physics, but the words in the glossary are wonderfully clear. I had no idea what a javelin was, looked it up, bingo - total clarity.
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Hurtle, They are good for ensuring a good hip postion and IMO helps with ankle flex, fore aft balance, flex and extension, angulation, edging the outside ski.
Tah on the glossary. i did a fair amount but most of the good definitions on hard to explain things came from V8 and Fastman
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If I'm trying to work on an issue in my skiing I often like to find the widest range of movement that I can manage. For example, if I'm working on width of stance I'll do some cowboy turns (legs as wide as possible) and some turns with my legs tight together. This seems to help with improving feeling for what's going on, and gives me a better sense of what is possible. Maybe some runs where the client artificially adopts a stance with exaggerated tip lead and then some runs where the outside leg is pushed forward/inside leg pulled back as far as possible. If you're working with more than one person you could split them into pairs and assess where each other is on a scale of 1 - 10 where 10 is excessive tip lead and 1 is tips level. Work out what their natural stance is, perhaps around 6 or 7, and ask them to ski closer to 2 or 3.
This is kind of like my earlier suggestion of pulling someone down the hill from a standing position (hips square and hips open), but when skiing.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 17-04-08 15:01; edited 1 time in total
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skimottaret, thanks.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My last instructor got me to think about fore and aft movement of my feet through the turn, using the tips as a reference point. The aim was to "manage" the inside tip lead by moving my outer foot forward and inner foot rearward during the turn. Smoothly and progressively with no sudden movements. It worked for me and I'm now more aware of my relative feet position during the turn.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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uktrailmonster, same for me. He tried to get us to shuffle our feet back and fore while doing long radius turns. Tough to do as it really messed up my balance. Will need lots more practice to do this.
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rob@rar, yes i had put down the extreme movements drill in the other thread, I like the group feedback idea (kinda like Inner skiing)but to add....
Get student to ski with grossly exagerated inner tip lead then switch to exagerated outer tip lead, see if they then can feel a neutral position
Ski with an imaginary bolt holding your ski tips a shoulder width apart
Push your inner foot back under you when making turns.
if in a group have each skier make some turns and get the group to rate the amount of inner tip lead on a scale of 1 to 10... give feedback to student based on peer review.
uktrailmonster, like it, being more aware of the adjusting fore aft position can only help
manage your inside tip lead by smoothly and progressively moving outer foot forward and inner foot back without any sudden movements.
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You know it makes sense.
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Coming out of turn initiation with your pressure on your big toe, consciously move your weight focus on to your whole outside foot as you move towards the apex of the carved turn. Probably not very well put, but that movement would tend to bring your outside ski back, no?
rob@rar, the shuffling movement has been mentioned a few times - from personal experience, it seems a lot more prevalent than I recall even with my limited experience. I tend to be a close observer of other's skiing when the situation allows. Of course, as one begins to understand what goes on, it may just be that I can now not only look but 'see'... 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, same for me. He tried to get us to shuffle our feet back and fore while doing long radius turns. Tough to do as it really messed up my balance. Will need lots more practice to do this. |
On my coaching course Ross was very against shuffle drills. thinking back it was one of the only things he was adamently against.... he didnt think they accomplished much and perhaps caused more problems that they solved. hmmm.. sounds familar to the young racers you saw...
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Poster: A snowHead
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He also got me to try this static demo: Stand across hill with skis parallel, normal width apart, but uphill ski pushed way forward - attempt to roll skis as far as possible onto their edges into the hill. Repeat with ski tips level to show how much easier it is.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Chasseur wrote: |
| rob@rar, the shuffling movement has been mentioned a few times - from personal experience, it seems a lot more prevalent than I recall even with my limited experience. I tend to be a close observer of other's skiing when the situation allows. Of course, as one begins to understand what goes on, it may just be that I can now not only look but 'see'... |
Yes, I 'see' more now than I used to. Chairlift rides can be very productive as you look at other people and try to imagine what you could offer, if anything, to help them improve. The foot shuffle at initiation is something that I've seen a lot this season, but it might be that I'm looking out for it as I have the same issue to address.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| On my coaching course Ross was very against shuffle drills. thinking back it was one of the only things he was adamently against.... he didnt think they accomplished much and perhaps caused more problems that they solved. hmmm.. sounds familar to the young racers you saw... |
I think my instructor was trying to get us to feel the range of movement that was possible. Wasn't hugely successful for me, so I'm not sure I'd suggest it to anyone.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| He also got me to try this static demo: Stand across hill with skis parallel, normal width apart, but uphill ski pushed way forward - attempt to roll skis as far as possible onto their edges into the hill. Repeat with ski tips level to show how much easier it is. |
very nice tip i wouldnt have thought of that one.... perfect to do after the "pull down the hill" exercise....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| He also got me to try this static demo: Stand across hill with skis parallel, normal width apart, but uphill ski pushed way forward - attempt to roll skis as far as possible onto their edges into the hill. Repeat with ski tips level to show how much easier it is. |
very nice tip i wouldnt have thought of that one.... perfect to do after the "pull down the hill" exercise.... |
I agree. When I used the 'pull down the hill' trick with my friend in MK on her next run she did reduce the tip lead considerably and her first words were "you just roll from edge to edge!". I guess she found a squarer stance easy to cross-over than her usual body movement.
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Is countering something that ought to form part of this discussion? Moving your torso more to face the outside to provide better stance over your skis? A good exercise, similar to the "pull down the hill" is to have your outside (downhill) ski perpendicular to the slope with your inside ski at a right angle and running over your outside ski. Pulling down the hill pdovides a useful way to demonstrate a countering position.
If that leads to a good Bio-mechanical position, perhaps that could form part of the process to avoid excessive tip lead? Feel free to dismiss - I have broad shoulders!!
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Chasseur, yes countering helps with seperating the upper and lower body, pivot slips is a good drill to help with seperation....
not heard of pulling down the hill while having crossing your skis before. not too sure about that one as it could be painful if messed up....
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One's weight is heavily, as you'd imagine, on the outside ski. The inside resting over the outside. As with the parallel version you attempt to pull the pupil down the slope. Their resistence forces the body into a position that demonstrates the 'correct' position for countering. I guess if you tried the exercise on someone who wasn't at a certain level or indeed level of trust, it could get a little messy to be honest.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, I'm not sure if this helps but The Skiers Edge has some interesting info.
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That's kind of like a static javelin turn.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Chasseur wrote: |
| skimottaret, I'm not sure if this helps but The Skiers Edge has some interesting info. |
good book, i got it and will have a skim for relevent drills...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Rob
| Quote: |
| That's kind of like a static javelin turn |
Except the counter to being pulled down the slope is a little different.....I suppose if one considers the position to Javelin in conjunction with the exrecise to demonstrate countering, one might begin to see how they combine...? I can almost "see" it and "feel" it, but conveying it? Think I'll stick to being on the receiving end.... 
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skimottaret, this is very interesting. Can I ask an idiot question? How much tip lead is "excessive"? I find it very difficult to get the uphill ski right back in line with the downhill one; should I keep trying, or is a small lead OK?
Pedant alert: if you are going to talk a lot about separation, could you please put an "a" in the middle? 
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You know it makes sense.
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Chasseur, thanks for the excerpt - I didn't know the etymology of the javelin turn. (By the way, Hart skis seem to be making a bit of a comeback over here.)
I'm not sure if the javelin turn is the best way to reduce tip lead though - on the contrary, in my view it seems to push the inside foot forward.
Reducing tip lead is closely related to engaging the little-toe edge, so personally I'd recommend those usual drills: one-ski skiing, Charleston, "cowboy turns" (exaggerated wide stance). Best done on skis with a lot of sidecut for quicker feedback - SL carvers or even Snowblades.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Martin Bell, d'you reckon Vielhaber could be resurrected? (sorry, sorry , OT I know...) 
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, if you want to blow your brains out check out the sister thread on getting rid of inner ski tip lead for the answer to what is excessive
it depends on how hard you are inclining/angulating into the hill and your turn shape but if you can see daylight between your boots when viewed from the side that is probably too much IMO when making normal "recreational" turns as opposed to hard racing turns.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 17-04-08 22:37; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, What's a 'recreational' turn
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skimottaret,
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Martin Bell and David Murdoch, do you think Arthur Negus would have seen those? And a bargain too at that price!
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One thing we tried in a warm-up whilst in Soldeu was telemark turns - forcing the outside ski to gain the lead (even if only by an inch). It really makes you stack/align well, and you cannot open your hips up.
A couple of other ideas:
Tuck turns - again, very difficult to get an excessive lead and is good for working on correct rotational separation.
Edge sets - again, something that is quite difficult to achieve if you aren't well aligned or if you've driven your inside leg forward.
I don't think that an inner tip lead is an especially heinous crime, but it does become worrisome when it starts affecting the hips and alignment - this is definitely more of a pronounced problem for people that purposefully drive the inner leg forward.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| little tiger wrote: |
skimottaret,
Had this problem a bit for a little while...(due to alignment issues - I actually had/have this problem one side only.... always worth considering this option)
IME this problem stems from the HIPS .... focus on what your hips are doing and the need to pull the foot back removes itself.... I see a lot of folks dropping a hip back ....
Graham N's idea of hands on hips does help to improve awareness of hip movements... |
Ski with awareness of hips and determination to prevent dropping of hip - try to drive outside hip forward perhaps? ie try to rotate those hips into the turn(hands help feel this)
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| Quote: |
Tuck turns - again, very difficult to get an excessive lead and is good for working on correct rotational separation.
Edge sets - again, something that is quite difficult to achieve if you aren't well aligned or if you've driven your inside leg forward.
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tuck turns sound good to as the tuck will force you to roll on the edges a bit more evenly. kinda like martins cowboy drill.. Not too sure about edge sets "curing" tip lead though...
little tiger, Your quoted post was bang on with regards to the hips. I personally like your idea of driving the outside hip around but others feel this can create a backseat position and too weak/lagging inner hip.
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FAQ
