 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello snowheads community!
I just registered yesterday and read lots of lots of stuff in this great forum!
Thanks for that :>
I ski since I'm a little kid, but sadly I'm not able to do it too often, since I live in north Germany (Hamburg) and am still a student 
For now I did mostly do what you do when you go on piste with your dad first, you stay on-piste 
Well now I just watched tons of videos and read even more and I would really like to do some "off-piste" skiing.
Sadly I realized that it seems to be even more expensive (With a guide and burrowed equipment 80-90€ a day, or around 400€+ for transceiver, shovel and probe :/)...Not only more expensive, but too expensive.
So I was wondering what most guys understand from "off-piste"...I would just like to build a small kicker and jump into powder or go down five meters beside the piste for the time being and I wonder how dangerous that can be...? I mean I don't wanna go 20km away from the piste, just there where you can still see the piste and it's secured that you can get on it again (and it's not too steep), is there really that much expensive equipment needed?
Of course later some time, I would love to go really off-piste with a guide or even do heliskiing, but I don't think I'm ready for that at the moment
So please don't get me wrong, I am not planning to make suicide, that's why I'm asking first
Oh and sorry for my english, I hope it's understandable 
Best regards,
K.D.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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KeyserDarko, welcome to snowheads. Use some common sense and if in doubt play safe and you should be OK. You'll probably start on gentle slopes, anyway, which are unlikely to be dangerous. But remember that the danger from Avalanche is often from slopes above the one you are on. However, if they also threaten a piste they will have been blown by the avalanche patrol before the lifts opened. Don't go off piste on your own, though: if you get into trouble you may need a friend!
A guide should be more like €60 or €70 though, and most will lend you a transciever etc (sometimes for a small fee but usually not).
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 8-04-08 15:49; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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KeyserDarko,
Welcome to  . Best advice I cuold give you is to get a guide for one day to learn the techniqe and the basics. Slightly diffrent to skiing on piste but the fundementals are the same. The below is a general common sense approach. Most guides will provide transcivers for off piste days.
As long as you stay in sight and close to the piste adn the conditions are good you will get away without the holy trinity (Shovel,probe,transciver).
Skiing off piste under lifts is a good start. Some resorts are better suited than other to this. Saalbach is a good example lots of runs near /Under lifts & ungroomed trails that are patrolled that you can start to learn how to ski powder.
Some resorts are more avalanche pron than other due to terrain etc. As long as you use your head and are sensible you will be safe even if you have the holy trinity with you, they are no use unless you know how to use them!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Why not try the Jugend des Deutschen Alpenvereins at http://www.jdav.de ? You may be late for this season but they have courses and trips
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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KeyserDarko, I am by no means an off-piste skier, really only venturing to the side of marked runs, but certainly there were areas of Avoriaz particularly on the Swiss side where you could pretty much ski wherever you fancied on or off piste, knowing you weren't too far from other people should you need some help. For example...
Anywhere you can see you could ski if you so wished. Others will probably give a different view and i'm sure they will be along soon!
//Edit: See below comments as to why the above might not be advised...
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 8-04-08 16:22; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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KeyserDarko, a fellow new user! Hello!
Most resorts will have an avalanche level warning every day - common sense, pay attention to it. Couple of years ago in the resort I was in a husband and wife were killed in an avalanche <50m from the piste/lift. It was a high risk day and they'd ignored it. The mayor and the head of the ski school had to explain to the two children <10 years old that mummy and daddy weren't coming back and that their grandfather was coming over from the states to collect them.
Some resorts will have ski schools where classes will go off piste a lot - it might be worth finding out if your resorts do this. For example groups 1A, 1B, 2A (and 2B to a lesser extent) in Lech spend a lot of time off piste. 3A spends a bit of time off piste. This would be much cheaper than a private guide.
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ski-finder, I wouldn't suggest going on the steeper slope in the foreground unless you were very confident the snow was safe.
In many resorts (such as Val d'Isere there are many companies who guide off piste groups which you can join - many of which (like Alpine Experience at Val d'I) will do beginner off piste lessons. However some resorts do not and a private guide with only a couple of people is very expensive. Worth finding out before you book the holiday.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowball, I think it was the location under the lift and that it was also quite an open gulley... the shadow makes it look steeper than it was too... and as you can see most people traversed it rather than zooming down it
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Welcome to both of you!
Another thought, aside from the usual route into off-piste (i.e. skiing near pistes or between them whilst always in view), is to try North America. At peak times the price difference can be minimal, and the opportunity to ski in a resort where everywhere is 'in-bounds' (patrolled and avalanche controlled) is great for safety and keeping down guiding costs.
Either way, hope you enjoy it, I'm still taking relatively early steps into the off-piste world and have been thankful for the ease with which I could give it a go in Canada.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ski-finder, yep, you can certainly ski pretty much wherever you want, whether or not you'll survive the experience is a different matter.
I have seen those very ski-tracked gully walls slip into the gully and you wouldn't want to be in there when they did. The couloirs in the background are also lots of fun but are also known to slide.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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David Murdoch, Agreed - nowhere else for the snow to go but the bottom of the gulley - which is where the skier also ends up...
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KeyserDarko, listen to David Murdoch and snowball as they certainly know more than I do on the subject...
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You know it makes sense.
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On the North American theme, Big White & Silver Star are both excellent resorts to learn powder skiing, particularly in trees. Basically the whole mountain is in-bounds and relatively safe. It's one of the main reasons we started going there. On a fresh powder day, you are pretty much guaranteed fresh tracks all morning without hardly straying off the pistes. With a guide or local knowledge, there are lift accessible fresh tracks available for days.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hey!
I see there are some who really know what they are talking about
North America hmm... Well that's a dream and I really think that's way too expensive for my students budget, sadly...
But who knows, maybe I will have the opportunity to go there sooner than I think.
Oh and I probably wouldn't go into that steep part seen on the picture, I mean, steep is nice, but if I want to gain speed, I would go on the piste, since I'm very confident there also at high speeds. I would more likely have more fun in the not that steep areas where I could just glide slowly through the powder...
But even though, I would probably not leave the piste without having a friend by my side and I also plan on buying at least a shovel, it's nice if you get stuck and you never now what's gonna happen to any one of the group even just a few meters away from the piste.
Thanks again for the replys! It's appreciated a lot!
Best regards,
K.D.
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Poster: A snowHead
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KeyserDarko, I've found, in my tentative steps into powder, that steep=awesome fun. If the powder's deep enough you can end up moving very slowly on shallower pitches, which makes turning much more difficult. My rule is: if it's deep, just hope it's steep!  (And as I say, I'm not that great off-piste, but find it easier when it's steeper).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hehe, sounds fun, but I guess I would only be doing that when it's just a steep part and not too far away, since when it's deep and steep it really gets dangerous.
So I guess I'd really feel very uncomfortable without transceiver+shovel+probe in deep and steep areas a bit away from piste and I think that would be enough to make it no fun for me
But don't get me wrong, I'm not the Sissy that doesn't like a bit risk, but there's always a limit for me
Oh and I have another question:
How dangerous is going through trees actually? I could think that there is almost no risk of avalanches if there's not veeeeery much powder and it's not veeery steep...?
Of course, crashing a tree isn't fun as well, but I guess that's a better to calculate risk than averlanches, so if I go safe and slow the first few times to find a nice path, couldn't I have lots of fun in trees as well, with a lot less risk while still being in powder?
Another thing I wonder about are so wiiiiide areas where there is no going down at all, so just biig spaces with lots of snow. Is there a risk of just sinking into the snow and dying? I guess not, since it's still snow and not water or something and it'll keep you up enough, or am I wrong?
Because I could think of a lot of fun there as well, at least with a kite or something similiar to drag you...
But I hardly noticed anything like that in the past few holidays, do you guys maybe have any clue where I could find such areas in Europe? Preferably near Germany of course
I hope I don't bother with all those questions :/
Thanks again for the effort!
Best regards,
K.D.p
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You can have avalanches in trees, they're not the safe haven you might think. Tree skiing is great though. You get protected from the wind, the snow is often deeper and visibility is better in low light. They need to be well spaced though to allow good speed and flow. Many of my favourite runs are gladed.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| You can have avalanches in trees, they're not the safe haven you might think. |
tree wells, more dangerous than avalanches imo. You can outrun an avalanche if you're lucky, try outrunning a well.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hmm, sounds senisble, alright, thanks.
But i guess it's okay if there is not too much snow and if I go with a friend who takes care
I guess it'd be best if he could stay on-piste beside the trees.
Best regards,
K.D.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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it doesn't matter how careful you are there is always some idiot who doesn't check or worry about anything and will get a better line than you 
Read up on avalanches and all that crap. Everything makes a difference, sun, wind, direction facing, steepness, concave, convex, rear entry boots. Unless you're hiking 3 hours into the wilderness it's doubtfull you'll hit a big avalanche, there are of course freak ones that no one can do anything about, we had one in la suisse at the start of the season that killed a boy right next to the piste. Me personally I've had big slips but never a full blown avalanche, but then I'm not really a big off piste person.
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KeyserDarko, where do you normally ski?
For the remainder of this season, the Zugspitze has announced that they will keep some of their runs ungroomed but avi controlled after new snow:
http://www.zugspitze.de/news/powderalarm08.php
For next season, in the Garmisch-Partenkirchen Classic Area, there is some pretty tame off-piste skier's right off the Osterfelder Abfahrt and Bernadien Abfahrt. Ski to the bottom of the Bernadien lift once and keep an eye to your right and you will see what I'm talking about. However, be VERY CAREFULL elsewhere in the Alpspitz area. Skier's left of those runs you can very easily find yourself skiing off a 500 m cliff.
Better yet, head just over the border to Lermoos. The area just under the Gamsjet lift is a 100% safe area that is left unprepared. There needs to be a decent amount of snow to cover up the bushes, but in good snow it's a great area. The area above and below the Wolfshütte is a bit more difficult, and a longer, more sustained area. For the top part, you need to pay some attention with route finding, but it isn't that hard if you traverse under the single lift. Once you've seen it from below it isn't that difficult.
Once you've gotten good, head over the Mittenwald and ski the Dammkar. It's avi controlled but unprepared. It's quite difficult, though. There is a similar area in Oberammergau, although I have not been on it yet.
Closer to home, I was cross country skiing on the Wurmberg on Sunday. As you know, it is not very steep, and there are lots and lots of trees. It would be a great place to learn how to ski in the trees. And I really don't think you have to worry about an avalanche on the Wurmberg. The only problem is actually getting there on a day with lots of fresh snow.
I grew up skiing in the US, so the idea of paying a ton of money for equipment and a guide to ski terrain right next to a lift that would be completely open and safe in N. America really frustrates me. As others have said, let common sense dictate your actions. The problem is that without experience, how are you suppose to have common sense? I was in Engelberg over Easter, and there is tons of next-to-the-piste ungroomed snow that is great and totally safe. There is also tons of next-to-the-piste ungroomed snow that is not totally safe, and in fact very dangerous. More worryingly, there are warning signs that are really senseless and others that are deadly serious, and the look exactly the same.
One of these days a European resort will realise that it can carve out a profitable niche by taking a N. American approach to resort management. Or maybe not.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Trees are in general a bit safer than open slopes, especially if there are bushes and the trees are more closely spaced. However an avalanche can start higher up.
Tree skiing (by which I don't mean glades) is great fun but needs more control and would be best left till you are a bit more experienced. After all, hitting a tree can kill you. And yes, if the snow is good, off-piste can make fairly steep slopes even more fun. However in Europe it is even more likely to be crud, slush, heavy packed-down powder or breakable crust.
I cannot see the main European resorts going the US way because they are just too huge - making the pistes safe is a big enough job. However there is starting to be an attempt in a few resorts to define a small area as "freeride" areas by which I think they mean something similar. Of course a smaller "boutique resort could try it but the confusion about which rules applied from resort to resort might be dangerous.
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| snowball wrote: |
| Tree skiing (by which I don't mean glades) is great fun but needs more control and would be best left till you are a bit more experienced. After all, hitting a tree can kill you. |
So much the same argument then as for introducing more unpisted runs, rocks and bumps - a good reason for the proliferation of tree runs as standard resort fayre. The same kind of knob that will hurtle dangerously through crowded beginner runs crashing and laughing all the way would learn some harsh if not final lessons if the victim was an immobile tree trunk rather than a fellow skier or boarder. 
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