Is skiing on your tails fast?

A snowHead

I think but could be wrong that skiing with your weight back and on the tails gets you going faster than if you are on the front of the ski.

if true why is that?

A snowHead

skimottaret, not sure. Is it actually faster, or does it just feel faster because you have less control?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

isn't the advice to load up the tips to initiate the turn then gradually move your weight back through the turn so that you are a bit back by the time you exit the turn?

that's how it's been described to me in my rare forays through gates anyway

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Arno, definately when making turns to avoid loosing an edge but if you watch the racers at Solden like ligerty and couche they definately sat back when they could to get some more speed on the easier sections, bode does it all the time...

the tails are typically much stiffer than the rest of the ski and i am wondering if you can get away with having less edge engaged (but still holding a clean edge and not skidding) does that equal less friction and faster speeds?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

When in a tuck position, schussing to cover a flat section, putting the weight back definatley keeps the speed, but of course less control due to no weight being over the front of the ski's.

You'll need to Register first of course.

no doubt someone who actually knows what they are talking about will be along soon but i would have thought that you'd want the pressure spread along as much edge as possible, rather than concentrated in a small area and therefore digging into the snow more?

for a given amount of edge engaged it seems logical that having less pressure at the front and more at the back would be faster than the other way round because the front of the ski would be gliding along the surface of the snow rather than digging in

[/i am not a scientist]

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Doesn't sound that daft to me; Tips for precision, tails for power.

Of course my mogul technique is more miss with the precision then rocket off in the backseat.

After all it is free

skimottaret, if you're skiing on your tails, I think you need to see an instructor about correcting your technique Toofy Grin

skimottaret, I wouldn't have thought so myself, except in deep snow?

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

skimottaret, that's what we have to do, coming down the long, gentle, south facing, blue run home when the snow gets slushy/sticky in spring. I hate it - makes my knees ache something terrible - but definitely faster. Or rather, you can actually move that way, whereas getting the weight further forward makes you stop.

I also find it quicker to get all the weight on one ski - so when knees are too tired from sitting back, that's my next trick. As it's a 5 km run there's time to do them all, several times. But on one ski it has to be weight centred - to give the knees a rest.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

skimottaret, I would say that with your weight behind the point of attachment to the ski more of the force would be applied towards the front of the ski. Whereas if you are perpendicular to the slope with your weight more forward, all the weight just goes straight down so the forward vector component is less. However, too far back and all the weight is on your heels.

snow reports

How many of you can sit on your tails? Bum on ski tails, all the way down?

comprex, while I can, why would I want to?

You know it makes sense.

I can't, and I have tried.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

skimottaret, the skis I had with me at Hemel last week have 3 binding positions the the most rearward is labeled speed (cant remember what the other 2 are).

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Not a racer or have any clue about race technique, but I thought the idea of getting onto your tails was called "jetting", and meant using core strength to pull yourself back onto the skis rather than it happening naturally, allowing more speed? My assumed theory was that it was to do with using the stored energy in your ski to fire you out of turns, but that's total guesswork.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Most definitely yes.....provided you are going in something like a straight line.
Ex 1) On occasion I've been following on behind an instructor and we've come to a flat section of piste - instructor hunches down a bit and tucks to maintain speed, I'm staying roughly with him. Tip slightly back from centre and all of a sudden I'm overtaking the instructor and he's going "Oi, how are you doing that....wait for me".

Ex 2) Last regional dry slope race of the season, I'm doing OK and looking fast, but despite having good speed on the top half of the course I'm visibly losing speed through the second, straighter, half. Prior to this race I've been doing quite a lot of training on wide gates on snow and have got used to lots of pressure on the front of the skis to get them to turn through the very turny courses. I'm not putting on nearly as much edge on this straighter course, but can really feel the skis stalling on those final gates. Final run decide to be a lot gentler on the skis, and slip back to my usual slightly rear-balanced stance Embarassed

. Results in struggling through the second half hanging onto my tails (something I've had plenty of practice at!). Had to survive a bit of a slide around the penultimate gate and a scrabble to stay in round the last gate.....but 0.2-0.3 sec faster than my previous attempts (at 9.17 sec), and that mistake at the penultimate gate had probably cost me 0.1-0.2 sec.

Ex 3) One very distinctive feature of the skiing of the highest ranked JN1 girl this year has been her extreme balance changes coming into verticales - she crouches down and essentially surfs them. Our top girl, looking at this gave it a go at an early race and came back staggered at how much faster it was compared to the stand-up approach. The downside, and extremely high-risk aspect, of this though is that you have to be back up and forward in time for the exit gate, or you'll carry on supremely fast through a course of entirely your own making Wink

. She's sufficiently strong and agile that she can make it work - most of us aren't Sad

. On snow you're probably going sufficiently fast that you won't have time to recentre for that exit (it's certainly something I have trouble with on snow courses).

The downside is that you get less pressure on the front of the ski to bend it into the turn, so less turning effect, so you really don't want this at the start of a tight turn. I do take mild exception to the statements that you're less in control - the skis have a lesser ability to initiate a turn, but if you're not needing to initiate a turn at that point then that lower ability results in no less "control", as it's an unneccessary asset at that point - just make sure you're back forward when you need to be. Once again, choose the right tool for the job in hand.

Why the effect? Not certain, but there's a much gentler increase in pressure under the sole of the ski along its length when your weight is a bit back. That probably allows a more progressive deflection of the surface downwards and deflection of the ski upwards to slide over it. Not clear that this explanation would work for skiing on hardpack.

Another consideration is the feedback cycle through the ski on small increases in snow resistance. It's very noticeable when you're on a sticky surface (soft slush or dry dendix) that if you get your weight in front of the binding that part of the ski gets pushed into the surface and binds; the increase in resistance then throws you further forward, the ski digs in and binds a bit more, the resistance goes up further....etc. i.e. viscious circle, the effect of localised high resistance is to cause changes that increase that high resistance. If you're a bit back and pushing your tails a bit hard into the snow, an increase in resistance throws you forward and evens up the pressure along the ski, reducing that dig in and so reducing the forward resistance, and it's self-correcting.

After all it is free

comprex, Darth Under?

Qui? Moi?

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

GrahamN, thanks, that was really interesting.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Some good answers here, I'll just second them.

Yes, aft is faster than fore. Loading the shovels hyper engages them, and drives them into the snow. It's great for initiating a sharp turn, but it's also like hitting the front brakes on your bicycle. Moving aft lightens the front of the skis and lets them glide freely over the snow as the tails power drive them through the turn. Tougher to turn sharply, but you haul butt.

Should you do it? That's the big question. Anything but center balanced, with weight equally distributed across the ball and heel of your foot, is less than optimal efficiency. I think my campers from Les Deux Alps this summer will testify to how much more tiring skiing aft is. And if you're not on the clock what's the rush anyway?

My suggestion is to shoot for consistent center balance as your default balance state. Move fore when you want to juice the start of your turn a bit, then return to center as you procede through the turn. Sure, go ahead and move aft a bit as you exit the turn if you want, to experience the fun of feeling your skis squirt forward as you exit the turn, but you'd better be able to recover fore by the start of the new turn. Practice it on the flats first,,, fore recovery is much tougher on a pitch.

Finally, even if center is your default, learn to ski and be confident aft. Learn how to move in and out of aft on demand. It lets you use it when you want, and it shows you how to recover quickly when you end up there by mistake. When you master it your comfort zone expands and your confidence in all situations mushrooms.

snow reports

Fastman - I like your answer alot. Fore and aft is like brake and accelerator. Skiing without moving backwards and forwards is IMHO mono-dimensional. It is surely a friction thing. I like soft skis so I can get the tips off the ground when I want more acceleration. I spend as much time pressing on the back of my boots as a do on the fronts Laughing

That's gonna drive the purists crazy but skiing for me is a fun activity not a textbook exercise.

gravystuffing, would you mind wearing some sort of distinctive hat or something, so we can all steer well clear of you?

You know it makes sense.

Lizzard,

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

gravystuffing, how cool, you've invented your whole own new sport. Well done. Twisted Evil

A snowHead

A snowHead

gravystuffing, not sure why, but I keep getting the feeling I want to buy something from you...

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

gravystuffing, well go find something fella, selling's in your blood Toofy Grin

You'll need to Register first of course.

so whats the fastest way of doing speed runs - crouch but get get the weight as far back as possible and no edges? I have a reputation to uphold this season

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I'm no racer but have just read hermann maiers autobiography. When asked how he could dominate the race world by so much (as he did pre-bike accident), he said he thought the reason was his ability to get his weight forward onto the front of the skis quicker than anyone else, to start each turn. Not sure if this contradicts any of the above, or is consistent with it...??

After all it is free

fatbob, I agree. The faster you get your weight forward towards your front foot the quicker you can make the turn. Otherwise you just accelerate into an uncontrolled wheelie like I used to do as a beginner.
Though tucking on a fast flat bit is just showing off Smile

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

like a powerboat.....less is best!!

Help!!

Is skiing on your tails fast?

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees