 Poster: A snowHead
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It's not a query normally posed in polite society, but this Telegraph article begs the question to some extent, because money is mentioned as a factor in whether skiing is attainable or not:
Bespoke traveller: skiing for beginners in Lech
Johnny Morris goes super-luxury skiing as a beginner in Lech (with one-to-one tuition) and is offered a choice of bathrobes and pillows before departure. It's an entertaining read, preceded by this comment ...
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| My wife refers to my new Alpine affection as "mid-life crisis skiing". I like to think of it more as catching up. I am not alone. A lot of pre-budget flight babies were too poor or too busy to ski when they were young. |
... but the article is certainly not about budget skiing! The article concludes with ...
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The verdict:
Five out of five. If you can afford it, Lech and the intimate atmosphere of the Hotel Kristiania provide the perfect introduction to luxury skiing for beginners. |
Indeed ... "if you can afford it" ... but was the journalist's enthusiasm influenced by a freebie, or did he pay? If he did pay, good for him. If he was a non-paying guest, it's not revealed.
I'm wondering if it should be a code of practice in travel journalism that the journalist's status (as a paying or non-paying guest) is revealed to readers?
[I'll email Johnny Morris in a few days to find out, but in the meantime it would be interesting to have people's guesses from the copy ... which might make useful reading for him too!]
Any views on ski journalism in general ... in the new era of ski forums like this, with the 'revolutionary' ability of skiers to glean comprehensive info. from people who've clearly paid?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith,
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I'm wondering if it should be a code of practice in travel journalism that the journalist's status (as a paying or non-paying guest) is revealed to readers?
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I've always assumed that travel journalists travel for free. What other point is there in being a travel journalist?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Agreed,
Either the newspaper pays, the promoter pays, or the resort/hotel pays.
Journo? never.
Unless freelance, of course.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| I've always assumed that travel journalists travel for free. What other point is there in being a travel journalist? |
Well, you get paid for writing the article!
The BBC does quite a lot of travel journalism, and it's probably highly influential since it's on TV. I don't know the Beeb's policy on freebie travel.
The magazine Conde Nast Traveller and the Independent newspaper were both founded with 'no freebies' policies on travel journalism.
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David Goldsmith,
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The magazine Conde Nast Traveller and the Independent newspaper were both founded with 'no freebies' policies on travel journalism
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Really? I certainly didn't know that. My assumption was obviously incorrect; I'm sure it's shared by many, though, and shouldn't have thought that there was much call for the journalist's paying or non-paying status to be revealed each time an article is published. But I could be wrong on that point too. I expect the good Mr Bode Swiller will be along with an opinion in a minute, or even that infrequent poster jacksonhole.
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I'm sure most hotel or chalet owners would offer journalists free places, because the publicity from an article (which people actually read!) is worth far more than what you might pay for an advert. We got four bookings from a one-line mention about snowshoeing - in the Guardian last year.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
| I've always assumed that travel journalists travel for free. What other point is there in being a travel journalist? |
Well, you get paid for writing the article!
The BBC does quite a lot of travel journalism, and it's probably highly influential since it's on TV. I don't know the Beeb's policy on freebie travel.
The magazine Conde Nast Traveller and the Independent newspaper were both founded with 'no freebies' policies on travel journalism. |
Surely to goodness (non-freelance) journalists get their expenses paid by their employer, like any other employee travelling on business. Of course, if a trip is subsidised by a business under review, the paper should tell.
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David Goldsmith, My views of journalists have not changed since this thread:-
journalists
I am still the same old cynic.
It sounds as though you may be having doubts about this noble profession.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Surely to goodness (non-freelance) journalists get their expenses paid by their employer, like any other employee travelling on business. |
Certainly in terms of covering wars, news, politics and other non-commercial stuff. But it's not normal for a paper to cover the expenses of a holiday review.
A holiday is an expensive commitment for the punter, which the article above alludes to. So the independence and objectivity of the review is a factor.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have read articles making the point that the writer was a "guest of" a named establishment; and therefore discount all but the most simple factual content. Maybe it would be good to ask the question more often?
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I've stayed at the Kristiania. It's a lovely hotel with great service and the food is good but all the hotels I've stayed at in Lech have been as good. My only problem with the Kristiania was that it took about three hours to get through dinner - very slow service.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
I've always assumed that travel journalists travel for free. What other point is there in being a travel journalist? |
Simon Calder writing for the Independent, promotes himself as Simon Calder: The Man Who Pays His Way and he insists that he pays for his own travel arrangements.
From his web site : " because I don’t accept free transport or accommodation from the travel trade. This may strike you as pious baloney, but one indisputable effect is that I tend to meet a lot of very interesting folk. The people with the best stories to tell live life in the cheap seats."
He obviously then gets paid for his journo effort.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I imagine that most readers of travel articles aren't stupid and assume that the writer didn't pay for the trip. Not sure anyone cares much either way. If trips had to be paid for there would be hardly any done or written up. The bigger issue as far as I'm concerned are the quiet little back door promo deals that seem to go on between certain writers and certain resorts/tour operators/equipment makers etc. It's well known that one ski writer has a peculiar fascination for Vaujany and Ski Peak, another at the Mail seems virtually sponsored by Inghams and the ST's fella seemed only to mention one ski website... his own! I spot these things a mile off and there are loads more instances.
Lately the biggest back door promo has been by the BBC's Ski Sunday - Momentum and Courmayeur seem to have done very nicely in terms of free peak-time airtime. Atomic and Ed's board get more than their fair share of freebie exposure and I guess we're not meant to notice.
Have to go now my helicopter is waiting.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| I imagine that most readers of travel articles aren't stupid and assume that the writer didn't pay for the trip. |
That makes me one of the stupid minority, then. I read it without being sure one way or the other.
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| Not sure anyone cares much either way. |
Let's say the article left out critical negative aspects of the holiday, and you booked the holiday (paying in full) in ignorance of them (having paid for your copy of the Daily Truth). You might feel differently.
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| If trips had to be paid for there would be hardly any done or written up. |
Trips are paid for - by the very people who read the articles or come to web forums like this. Maybe the hacks should talk to the paying punters, or get the paying punters to supply the raw data of the articles - 'interactivity'.
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| Lately the biggest back door promo has been by the BBC's Ski Sunday - Momentum and Courmayeur seem to have done very nicely in terms of free peak-time airtime. |
Might be interesting to flesh this out, on a factual basis. If you're saying the Beeb have effectively 'advertised' specific skiing providers in return for favours we may have a story.
Over to you, Swiller.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David Goldsmith, Please don't pretend you're stupid. If you were stupid you wouldn't have started the thread.
Actually trips are paid for by airlines, hotels, resorts, tour operators, sometimes whole regions, even whole countries. Normally writers take up seats and rooms that would be empty anyway because high season is normally always a "block off". I agree writers should involve the comments of normal paying customers more than they seem to.
I'm guessing that Aosta/Courmayeur and Momentum have picked up the tab for putting the celebs up and maybe their travel expenses and, in return, get the exposure. I'm too busy gorging on freebies... you go investigate.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thank you, Swiller. I can't find my deerstalker and large magnifying glass but as soon as I do, I'm off.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
I'm wondering if it should be a code of practice in travel journalism that the journalist's status (as a paying or non-paying guest) is revealed to readers?
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I can't imagine any journalist ever paying personally for a holiday that he is writing a report on. If he doesn't get it as a freebie from the tour op/accommodation/whatever, then the organ he is writing fro will be paying for it surely.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And that is why forums such as this are invaluable IMHO.
As a frequent contributor and more frequent voyeur on Snowheads I'm happy to offer constructive, honest criticism and praise and also happy to receive the opinions of others which I'm confident are made in the same manner.
I have nothing to gain by writing about my experiences (except the odd lesson here and there) but much to gain from reading.
Print journalists from the UK covering winter sports have a great gig going on. And it's still a job.
On a recent function in Hirafu, Hokkaido, the aforementioned 'Mail' journalist had to curtail his evening entertainment to submit copy and make a deadline.
And while most would say 'give me the opportunity to do his job' it is a very exhausting and often frustrating job. With the obvious benefit of regular time on snow.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
I can't imagine any journalist ever paying personally for a holiday that he is writing a report on. If he doesn't get it as a freebie from the tour op/accommodation/whatever, then the organ he is writing fro will be paying for it surely. |
On the contrary, many newspapers have published ski articles based on writers' personally-paid-for trips. I'm one of them. For instance, from a travel editor's point of view it's quite useful to have writers who can assess a wide variety of ski destinations from the perspective of the paying consumer.
As above, specific publications sometimes make a point of saying it's their policy not to accept freebies. That's why the BBC's policy is of interest.
Mike, I think you're conflating two different points here. Yes, the work of a staff journalist on a newspaper is time-critical and stressful (hence the alcoholism that's traditionally plagued the profession).
But a writer on a Japanese ski freebie would not (I imagine) have been filing urgent copy about that specific trip, because it's not a war zone. He was probably filing copy on something far more important!
But let's be clear - was he really 'up against it' in relation to the Japanese skiing itself, or some other subject?
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On a recent function in Hirafu, Hokkaido, the aforementioned 'Mail' journalist had to curtail his evening entertainment to submit copy and make a deadline.
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That must have been very tough. Bet he'd rather have got the easy gig of being embedded with frontline troops in Afghanistan.
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Yeah. Charlie don't snowboard.
"I love the smell of gluhwein in the morning."
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith,
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On the contrary, many newspapers have published ski articles based on writers' personally-paid-for trips. I'm one of them. For instance, from a travel editor's point of view it's quite useful to have writers who can assess a wide variety of ski destinations from the perspective of the paying consumer.
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Ok, which resorts, which publications. Lets have dates then. I think your poo-poo stirring (again) 
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
I can't imagine any journalist ever paying personally for a holiday that he is writing a report on. If he doesn't get it as a freebie from the tour op/accommodation/whatever, then the organ he is writing fro will be paying for it surely. |
On the contrary, many newspapers have published ski articles based on writers' personally-paid-for trips.
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I'm sure they have.
mostly not from professional journalists.
And I am sure there have been cases where professional journalists have gone on a private trip, and then decided to offset some of the cost by writing about it.
But no journalist is going to write a commissioned artivcle without expenses being paid. He can't afford to, because I don't think payment rates for these artcles are high enough to cover the cost of the trip plus a reasonable income. [EDIT] - The rate for a 900 word weekend article in The Telegraph is £550 according to the NUJ [/EDIT]
Whether that means the organ he is writing or pays, or he gets it as a freebie is irrelevant to that point (although not irrelevant to any bias the article may have).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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[quote="David Goldsmith"]
| alex_heney wrote: |
Mike, I think you're conflating two different points here. Yes, the work of a staff journalist on a newspaper is time-critical and stressful (hence the alcoholism that's traditionally plagued the profession).
But a writer on a Japanese ski freebie would not (I imagine) have been filing urgent copy about that specific trip, because it's not a war zone. He was probably filing copy on something far more important!
But let's be clear - was he really 'up against it' in relation to the Japanese skiing itself, or some other subject? |
He'd flown straight from Canada to Japan and had a deadline on the copy of his Canadian trip.
Not pretending that it's not a great job, but many people wouldn't be able to do it.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| halfhand wrote: |
David Goldsmith,
Ok, which resorts, which publications. Lets have dates then. [re: resort articles in newspapers] |
I did freelance ski articles for about six national papers between 1986 and about 1992. The resort pieces were usually comparative ('which resorts are best for late season skiing' - that kind of stuff), but most of the pieces I did were about ski equipment and technology.
| halfhand wrote: |
| I think your poo-poo stirring (again) |
I guess that's one definition of scribbling, but in all seriousness what's the point of debate if it's not provocative to the mind?
| Mike Pow wrote: |
He'd flown straight from Canada to Japan and had a deadline on the copy of his Canadian trip.
Not pretending that it's not a great job, but many people wouldn't be able to do it. |
One of the historical documents I'm studying at the moment is an 1836 transcript of a famous trial by Charles Dickens (then working as a journalist) for the Morning Chronicle. The transcript must run to about 20,000 words, taken in one day over 10 hours, printed in that paper the following day. He would have worked with a quill, and the compositor (probably even more impressively) would have worked with individual slugs of lead type, for each character and space.
I daresay Dickens would have appreciated a ski trip after that lot!
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The Telegraph website has come up with another ski article today (presumably in the paper too), this time hinting at the writer - Anna Murphy - having paid the full cost of the trip:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/snowandski/761718/Verbier-better-late-than-never-again.html
They say that the tell-tale sign of a freebie holiday is if the journalist mentions the tour operator by the second paragraph (on the basis that some readers might not make it to the end!). In this case the tour operator is strikingly plugged in the third paragraph ...
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| Careful to pick a resort high enough to guarantee snow so late, I booked with Ski Armadillo, a small, Verbier-only chalet specialist, which focuses on plugging the gap between the super-luxe and the somewhat tired with high-quality yet unglitzy properties at comparatively affordable prices. I wanted to make my hesitant return to skiing as painless as possible, both in terms of the accommodation there, and my bank balance when I returned – and Ski Armadillo succeeded on both counts. |
The writer here refers to her bank balance, so was the holiday paid for at the market price?
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You know it makes sense.
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The last time I spoke to a journalist about this subject (he was the sports editor for a national tabloid), he told me that few senior journalists ever pay for their holidays. Travel companies bombard newspapers with offers of freebies and these are distributed amongst staff according to their ability to pull rank. The quid-pro-quo is an article on the holiday in the travel pages.
He wasn't aware of any instances of deliberate or direct interference in the resulting editorial copy by the tour operators. However, all journos who accepted a freebie were fully aware that the gravy train could easily be derailed: a few negative articles could severely disrupt the future flow of freebies so self-censorship was completely effective.
I'm afraid to say that I find it very difficult to find much respect for journalists on this matter. The media - quite properly - is at pains to ensure that MPs are completely above board with their expenses and donations, but the same profession refuses to adopt a sensible code of conduct to ensure the public has the same degree of information about their own vested interests.
As for the Independent, it used to claim that none of its travel journalists were allowed to accept freebies from the industry. I haven't seen that claim in a long while, apart from Simon Calder's strapline of 'The man who pays hs way.' I suspect but can't prove that the Independent has joined its disreputable competitors by accepting bribes.
The moral is this: never trust an opinion that you read in the travel pages of a newspaper. Snowheads might be frivolous, sarcastic and occasionally rude, but there's much more honesty in these forums than you'll ever find in the mainstream media.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
One of the historical documents I'm studying at the moment is an 1836 transcript of a famous trial by Charles Dickens (then working as a journalist) for the Morning Chronicle. The transcript must run to about 20,000 words, taken in one day over 10 hours, printed in that paper the following day. He would have worked with a quill, and the compositor (probably even more impressively) would have worked with individual slugs of lead type, for each character and space.
I daresay Dickens would have appreciated a ski trip after that lot! |
I think drinking was Dickens' outlet. He seems to have been in more than his fair share of pubs if you can believe what you read.
I keep meaning to visit Dickens' house in Doughty Street.
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