 Poster: A snowHead
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Have had my Salomon Xwave boots for a couple of years now but am starting to notice my left heel moving very slightly.
I probably didn't notice this much before as I kept both skis on the ground but have started doing this move where I tilt the inside ski onto its tip to help bring it across in a turn. Bad technique or not 
Anyway, doing this means the heel comes up slightly whereas it does not in my right hand boot. No matter how I adjust the buckles, it still moves slightly (i'm talking millimetres here) in the left and doesn't give me the same level of control.
Any thoughts on what to do?
Tightening the 2nd buckle over foot or the lower leg buckle doesn't help.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What sort of insoles have you in the boots? It might be time for a new pair.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The soles are custom moulded footbeds. I think in total I've skied in these boots for about 30-40 days so shouldn't be that bad?
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That's just what mine felt like - I used a lump of a cheap thin door carpet from Poundstretchers under my heel below the boot inner. I'm sure SZK is wincing, but it worked for me and I think I felt a huge difference on holiday - I'm keeping them in place for the next trip anyway!! [Evil grin icon required]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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So, is it likely to be the liner or the footbed?
My left foot is very slightly smaller and I think these boots were always like this so it's unlikely to be a bedding in problem.
Any solutions or likely to be a custom moulded liner for the left boot?
Megamum, you put something under the heel to lift the top of your foot closer to the top boot bedding? I'm wary of doing this for putting my foot off balance and basically negating the point of the footbed?
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GordonFreeman, Yes, my heath Robinson solution has that effect, but I don't have 'proper' footbeds.
However, I was surprised to find when I removed the inner boots that my boots already have risers in the heel (thereby moving the foot closer to the top of the footbed) - they look like bonefide plastic inserts - there are two clipped together. I can remember the chap putting them in - my calves were too wide and by lifting my heel it made the boots more comfortable around the calves. I think the boots would have kept these risers even if I had asked for the footbeds (and they were offered at the time). Hence, to my thinking at least, my tiny depth and area of carpet would appear to do no more than what appears to be an industry standard fitting manouevre anyway - as far as I can see (in my boots at least) any footbed fits above the heel risers no matter what they are made from. The nice thing about the carpet is that its a nice solid uniform substance which packs down nicely.
However, don't forget that I'm a novice in all this and am only writing from my own ignorance - although I still think that [b]my[b] boots (and of course we are all different) are better with the carpet than without!!
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GordonFreeman,
if the movement is slight then it may well be possible to add a couple of foam shims either side of the achillies which will help to hold the heel a little snugger, other options include a small heel lift [if the left is caused by lack of flexion or too much depth in the heel pocket] or changing the footbed / liner but these are only if all else fails
Megamum, i think in this case your home made volume reducers would be complete overkill and take up too much volume around the rest of the foot
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CEM, So, just buy some foam pads and slot them in while I'm putting my foot in?
Sounds a bit tricky owing to how well the rest fits...
Heel lift: what do you mean by movement due to lack of flexion? I imagine there is a bit of space in the heel pocket but it can't be substantial.
Footbed: How will changing this help? Something to give more lift at the heel? Isn't that the same as putting something under the footbed?
Liner: Best but most expensive option I guess?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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the foam pads are attached to the outside of the liner just above the heel around either side of the achillies tendon so it is done once it is done not a repeat every day task
by lack of flexion i am talking about the inability for your ankle to flex sufficently so that when you flex the boot forward the heel lifts a little, sometimes a small lift 2-3mm under the footbed can be enough to A raise the foot into the heel pocket & B stop the sensation of movement
depeding on the type/make /model of footbed you have and how well it was made will depend on the position in which it holds your foot, it may be that you need a deeper heel cup which will reduce motion of the heel bone either laterally or vertically
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| CEM wrote: |
the foam pads are attached to the outside of the liner just above the heel around either side of the achillies tendon so it is done once it is done not a repeat every day task
by lack of flexion i am talking about the inability for your ankle to flex sufficently so that when you flex the boot forward the heel lifts a little, sometimes a small lift 2-3mm under the footbed can be enough to A raise the foot into the heel pocket & B stop the sensation of movement
depeding on the type/make /model of footbed you have and how well it was made will depend on the position in which it holds your foot, it may be that you need a deeper heel cup which will reduce motion of the heel bone either laterally or vertically |
Attached to the outside of the liner...between the liner and the actual boot shell? So, it pushes the liner inwards? Sorry, may be some confusion over terminology here but when you say liner I take that to mean the foam and plastic boot shape that can be rmeoved from the shell. Not sure I understand how adding foam outside of that will help to push it in?
So, would I get some double sided sticky foam and put them in place on the shell, then shove the liner back inside?
Next question 
Won't a heel lift mean that your foot is no longer flat in the boot, which is what the Conformable footbed is supposed to do? So, you will be applying slightly different movements o left and right feet to move the ski...or does this not matter since the actual boot will be flat against the binding anyway?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| GordonFreeman wrote: |
| CEM wrote: |
the foam pads are attached to the outside of the liner just above the heel around either side of the achillies tendon so it is done once it is done not a repeat every day task
by lack of flexion i am talking about the inability for your ankle to flex sufficently so that when you flex the boot forward the heel lifts a little, sometimes a small lift 2-3mm under the footbed can be enough to A raise the foot into the heel pocket & B stop the sensation of movement
depeding on the type/make /model of footbed you have and how well it was made will depend on the position in which it holds your foot, it may be that you need a deeper heel cup which will reduce motion of the heel bone either laterally or vertically |
Attached to the outside of the liner...between the liner and the actual boot shell? So, it pushes the liner inwards? YES Sorry, may be some confusion over terminology here but when you say liner I take that to mean the foam and plastic boot shape that can be rmeoved from the shell. CORRECT Not sure I understand how adding foam outside of that will help to push it in? WHEN THE LINER HAS THESE PADS PUT ON IT THE PADS ARE TRAPPED BETWEEN THE LINER AND THE SHELL THUS PINCHING THE LINER AGAINST THE ACHILLIESSo, would I get some double sided sticky foam and put them in place on the shell, then shove the liner back inside? NO THE PADS SHOULD BE STUCK TO THE LINER THEN IT GETS PUT BACK INSIDE THE SHELL, BEST TO SEE A BOOTFITTER, IT WILL COST YOU LESS THEN £10 TO HAVE THIS DONE PROFESSIONALLY
Next question
Won't a heel lift mean that your foot is no longer flat in the boot, NO which is what the Conformable footbed is supposed to do? So, you will be applying slightly different movements o left and right feet to move the ski...or does this not matter since the actual boot will be flat against the binding anyway? WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS RAISING THE HEEL SLIGHTLY WHICH WILL LIFT IT INTO THE TOP OF THE HEEL POCKET OF BOTH THE LINER AND SHELL, THE FOOTBED FILLS THE GAPS UNDER THE FOOT TO SPREAD THE PRESURE OVER THE WHOLE SURFACE OF THE FOOT |
Answers embeded in bold caps, must dash busy busy busy 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Okay, but if I exagerrate this to explain, wouldn't the extra lift be like walking in a high heel shoe on your left foot and a trainer on your right?
So when you tilt at the knees and ankles to carve, one ski would be at an odd angle.
Excuse the example but I couldn't draw a diagram
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if you do use a lift it should be bilateral. ie in both boots....if it feels wrong in the other boot then it would be better to try the shims...or you will ski round in circles but i am only talking about a 3mm lift and this should be able to go into the other boot without too much problem.... if you don't want to touch the other boot then some foam pads is the solution
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You know it makes sense.
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who are some decent bootfitters in London?
I'm weary of taking to snow and rock for some ripoff prices
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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distinct lack other than the chain stores
there is profeet, finches, bartletts much further up the line and you are in Bicester or south you have europa ski lodge cant think of any more other than the usual S&R or EB
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Poster: A snowHead
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GordonFreeman, I was at CEM's this afternoon to get Deb measured for new boots & he was responding to your post when we got there.
Her existing boots have heel shims affixed to both liners by the orignal fitter (not CEM). There's a matching shim on the other side of this liner.
Maybe the reason she needed them was that her boots are 1-2 sizes too big!
How much shell gap do you have?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Not sure on the shell gap but I would estimate there's room for a shim just looking at the shape of the heel part on the liner.
I did notice the liner has a part that says custom fit though there was no heating fit when I bought the boots:
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| GordonFreeman wrote: |
| Not sure on the shell gap but I would estimate there's room for a shim just looking at the shape of the heel part on the liner....... |
GordonFreeman, sorry, I've not explained myself correctly. There will always be room for a shim as it will just push the liner inwards to grip tighter.
Shell gap is the amount of space between your barefooted heel & the rear of the empty shell when your toes are just touching the front of the boot - usually measured in mm. If the gap is excessive then you're likely to get heel lift, especially when the liners start to pack-out. I'd do a shell check first to ensure that your boot length is ok otherwise it's not worth the time/cost of trying to rectify what's already a poor solution.
I say this from personal experience:
First pair of boots from S&R = 35mm. Felt too big after a few days use so I ebay'd 'em.
Second pair from EB's = 25mm. I started to get heel lift after just a few days use when doing ankle flexing drills on a WSA course & Warren said my boots were too big so I went to Profeet upon return. Ebay'd 'em again.
Third pair from Profeet = 15/16mm. I now had a bit more knowledge & had agreed this fit with Profeet as a good balance between performance & comfort. The liners started to pack-out after 60/65 days use.
Current boots from CEM = 8/9mm for a performance fit in a shell better matched to my foot but I can still keep them snicked-up all day.
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Seems to be around about 20mm +/- a bit for not being able to get an accurate estimate
maybe 20-25 on left foot
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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With my new boots I got 4 little plastic inserts that you put in ankle pockets of the liner should additional heel retention be needed. To be truthful they didn't look like they would do much so I chucked them in the back of a drawer probably never to be seen again. I might just put them somewhere safer.
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| GordonFreeman wrote: |
Seems to be around about 20mm +/- a bit for not being able to get an accurate estimate
maybe 20-25 on left foot |
Defo too big for my liking but ask CEM/Thezookeepers for an opinion. Probably time to get your credit card out
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So, just checking options. If a shim won't do it, and a heel lift might not work, a custom made liner is the only option to fill all the space?
Out of interest, why should the shell gap make a difference if the liner fills all the space completely?
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GordonFreeman, if the shells are too big no amount of fiddling with the liners will turn them into a good pair of boots. A 25mm gap sounds pretty big to me, too big in fact, but I'm not a boot expert. A pair of boots I was using until about three seasons ago (which were bought in S&R) were that big on my feet and I had no end of trouble with them. Always painful and always sloppy. Since then I've bought a copuple of pairs of boots from reputable bootfitters (Profeet with liners by CEM; and SZK) which are the right size for me (gap of about 10mm IIRC) and they are the best boots I've ever used.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bad fitting advice then, these were S&R as well ?
The right boot is okay though so I'm hoping a shim on the left might do it... please 
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| GordonFreeman wrote: |
Bad fitting advice then, these were S&R as well ?
The right boot is okay though so I'm hoping a shim on the left might do it... please |
Worth trying before you think about a more expensive option. I'd say it's worth making the trip up to see CEM in Bicester for some high quality advice. In my experience he will be honest with you and won't try to sell you new boots if he doesn't think you need them. For me a heel which lifts is the worst crime possible, so no matter the cost I wouldn't want to compromise.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| GordonFreeman wrote: |
| ......why should the shell gap make a difference if the liner fills all the space completely? |
The liner is only so thick & you've got too much gap between your foot & the shell for it to both fill & provide support, especially after it's been packed down a bit with use.
| GordonFreeman wrote: |
| So, just checking options. If a shim won't do it, and a heel lift might not work, a custom made liner is the only option to fill all the space?..... |
A custom liner is designed to get a precision fit for the ultimate feel/transmission in a 'well' fitting shell or for replacing packed-out stock liners in well fitting shells that have a lot of life left in them. If you're shells are actually that big then IMO you'd be throwing good money after bad by trying to use a custom liner to fill that amount of void. A custom liner will still pack out & then you'd be back to square one.
20mm on your right boot is still too big. It's probably a reasonable assumption that if a boot's too big in length then it's likely to be too big in either volume or width or both (it was with my earlier boots) & it's also likely that it's not properly matching the flex/pivot point of your ankle to the boot etc.
Go see CEM - he doesn't actually sell boots (just fits 'em & does footbeds & alignment work etc) but he does custom liners - & as Rob says you'll get impartial advice.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| GordonFreeman wrote: |
| Bad fitting advice then, these were S&R as well? |
Welcome to the club! We've all been there!
It's all down to who's doing the fitting but it appears to be a common theme that most of the chain stores fit 'big'. I suppose it means that they don't have to worry about properly matching shell shape to foot shape etc & that they'll have a load of satisfied customers that have boots that "fit like slippers" & no complaints. Most Brits are one week a year recreational skiers & so they'll never know the difference. When you first tried your boots on in the shop I bet they felt snug didn't they, I know mine did, so how are we supposed to know?
It's only when this game starts to become more of a sport rather than a recreational thing that people start taking an interest in their kit. And the bottom line is that boot fit is everything. And the cost of getting it right relative to the overall cost of going skiing is actually very low when you considering the weeks of usage you'll get.
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spyderjon,
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| Current boots from CEM = 8/9mm |
Opted for the comfy fit then?
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You know it makes sense.
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Spyderman, I ain't man enough for a plug
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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spyderjon, neither wasSpyderman his are the 98mm one...i can get my foot in them [which is saying something]
GordonFreeman, how much skiing are you doing...if one week a year then you could "get away " with the space you have and a shim if more then you are likely to want a tighter fit....but this is all dependant on several factors...if you have a high volume foot then you can get away with a little more space than if you have a slim foot...if you wear climbing shoes every weekend at a local rock wall you are likely to wanr a tighter fit what you need to remeber is that comfort and performance are inversely proportionate i can give you as much comfort as you want but the performance will go out the window i can equally give you as much performance as you want depending on how much DIScomfort you are willing to tolerate
all people are different for some lower level skiers then 20mm or even more is just fine, the number of people i see who scream about a 15mm saying it is too tight and nothing i can do will make them accept it most of this is the wanting to have instant gratification ..instant comfort without any break in time...... well i suppose if you have one or two holidays a year you want them to be perfect from day one. all the fitter can do is give you the advice but at the end of the day it is down to you, they are your feet
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Poster: A snowHead
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sounds like your boots my be a size too big overall as this was similar to me, when i had them fited originally they were fine but as they padded out they became too big and my feet were moving around and heels lifting. I have just bought a new pair which are a size smaller and boy are they snug, however i have very narrow feet so i have a heel wedge under my conformable footbeds which lift the heel up into he ball bit at the back of the boot where it should be and they are now perfect
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Spyderman, highly overrated [toes that is]
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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GordonFreeman, there's another fitter in London - Surefoot, on New King's Road SW6 (www.surefoot.com) - I used them in Verbier last year and found them very good. They did my footbeds as well as adjusting the liner fit around my heels/ankles with bits of foam. Since then I've packed the liners out a bit more, so I'm also using moulded plastic heel tighteners between the shell & the liner. Slightly uncomfortable some of the time, but I ski better with them tighter, so there's the trade-off!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| CEM wrote: |
spyderjon, neither wasSpyderman his are the 98mm one...i can get my foot in them [which is saying something]
GordonFreeman, how much skiing are you doing...if one week a year then you could "get away " with the space you have and a shim if more then you are likely to want a tighter fit....but this is all dependant on several factors...if you have a high volume foot then you can get away with a little more space than if you have a slim foot...if you wear climbing shoes every weekend at a local rock wall you are likely to wanr a tighter fit what you need to remeber is that comfort and performance are inversely proportionate i can give you as much comfort as you want but the performance will go out the window i can equally give you as much performance as you want depending on how much DIScomfort you are willing to tolerate
all people are different for some lower level skiers then 20mm or even more is just fine, the number of people i see who scream about a 15mm saying it is too tight and nothing i can do will make them accept it most of this is the wanting to have instant gratification ..instant comfort without any break in time...... well i suppose if you have one or two holidays a year you want them to be perfect from day one. all the fitter can do is give you the advice but at the end of the day it is down to you, they are your feet |
Well, it used to be once a year but now that I am doing weekends it is more like 18days a year, maybe more if I could afford it...
Just seems strange that the right boot is okay..although as you say the longer I wear it, the more it will pack out and I will eventually get the same thing.
All I can tell you is that I don't like the heel moving when I ski. I'm bothered about getting it right and using good technique and that's only going to be more the case in coming years
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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How long are boots meant to last by the way? About 120 days til they normally get completely padded out?
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| GordonFreeman wrote: |
| How long are boots meant to last by the way? About 120 days til they normally get completely padded out? |
or less if they don't fit well in the first place
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GordonFreeman, I think you know what's needed buddy. You're throwing good money after bad. A well fitted shell and liner can last 500 ski days, we have many over skied boots here that still fit perfectly but UVA has had it's way with the shells. All our boys, oops (all the boys at footworks have about a 3mm shell check) and ski and rando fine in them. Bite the bullet, your skiing will benefit, your holidays more worthwhile, herein lies the value. Quality time. A well fitted ski boot is like buying a load of drugs. Ski better, Ski faster, feel the Endorphines and Adrenaline pumping through those veins.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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CEM, why less though, because people do them up tighter to compensate?
SMALLZOOKEEPER, I know what you mean. However, I will try the shim first and see and failing all other solutions, get the credit card out! 
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GordonFreeman,
yes they clip em up to compensate and the liner packs down even faster
try the shims, make em last the season and get thy self to a fitter in the autumn
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FAQ
